Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

randomradio

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In any case, the Rafale will at least be a test bed for FCAS equipment, and if it is of interest, these equipments will be integrated into the Rafale weapon system.

Using Rafale as a TD for FCAS and launching a program for FCAS-class tech for Rafale are different though.

Rafale needs drones. If LCA Mk2 and MKI MLU will get drones by the end of the decade, then Rafale cannot stay far behind.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Armaments: SCAF money is worth a deal between Airbus and Dassault

France, Germany and Spain have reached an agreement to launch the next development phase (phase 1B) of the future SCAF (Future Air Combat System) fighter aircraft, Europe's largest defence project estimated to cost more than €100 billion.

There are those who will welcome the agreement reached between Dassault Aviation and Airbus on phase 1B of the SCAF (Future Air Combat System). They will be right. It is indeed good news. "The political agreement on the SCAF is a major step forward and - especially in the current international context - an important signal of the excellent cooperation between France, Germany and Spain," the Élysée Palace said in a statement. Then there are those who will explain that this agreement does not yet pave the way for a definitive success of this programme, which is the most emblematic in European cooperation (Germany, Spain and France). They will also be right. For nothing is truly and definitively settled today.

The Bundestag, the supreme arbiter

Why is nothing settled? The launch of phase 1B (detailed studies leading to the definition of a demonstrator), which should be spread over three years, remains suspended on the vote of the all-powerful Bundestag budget committee, which has a right of review over all contracts worth more than 25 million euros signed by the German state. The committee is open to lobbying by German industrialists and therefore still has the power to scupper the agreement. And it will do so without any qualms if it considers that the interests of German industry have been sold out by Berlin. In order to protect them, this committee has made several demands since the beginning of the SCAF and MGCS (future tank) programmes.

The Bundestag's Budget Committee is demanding that the SCAF programme's technological work be divided fairly between two levels, the states and industry. It also demands parallel progress on these two programmes - which seems impossible at this stage - and the consolidation of land armaments, which is equally unrealistic. These two requirements are therefore not currently being met. Moreover, the completion of Phase 1B does not yet make the SCAF irreversible.

So why an agreement now?

Everything has been settled between Airbus and Dassault Aviation since last March, including flight orders, on which the two manufacturers have long been at odds. Dassault Aviation has therefore ensured that the contract reflects the agreement reached between the two manufacturers at the beginning of the year. The flight controls will be supplied off-the-shelf by the French aircraft manufacturer to equip the demonstrator. But Airbus and Dassault Aviation have been fighting especially in the spring and summer over the post-demonstrator period, when the stakes for the two manufacturers will be high. Airbus Germany, which demanded more responsibility for the NGF (Next Generation Fighter) flight orders to support its design offices in Manching, wanted to obtain firm commitments from Dassault Aviation on the post-demonstrator phase. The French aircraft manufacturer did not give in to Airbus' pressing demands.

Why an agreement now? Because there are budgetary credits to spend and which are available. In August 2021, Berlin, Madrid and Paris had explained that they were going to finance phase 1B to the tune of 3.6 billion euros, i.e. 1.2 billion each, as the office of the former Minister of the Army, Florence Parly, had been assured. France has programmed 1.26 billion euros in payment credits between 2023 and 2025 (372.8 million in 2023, 471.17 million in 2024 and 416.51 million in 2025). Being by nature very pragmatic, the industrialists, notably Airbus, did not want to see these available budgetary credits slip away under their noses. For the European aircraft manufacturer, it will then be time to come back later to obtain what it did not get this time.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 

RASALGHUL

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Ankit Kumar

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Armaments: SCAF money is worth a deal between Airbus and Dassault

France, Germany and Spain have reached an agreement to launch the next development phase (phase 1B) of the future SCAF (Future Air Combat System) fighter aircraft, Europe's largest defence project estimated to cost more than €100 billion.

There are those who will welcome the agreement reached between Dassault Aviation and Airbus on phase 1B of the SCAF (Future Air Combat System). They will be right. It is indeed good news. "The political agreement on the SCAF is a major step forward and - especially in the current international context - an important signal of the excellent cooperation between France, Germany and Spain," the Élysée Palace said in a statement. Then there are those who will explain that this agreement does not yet pave the way for a definitive success of this programme, which is the most emblematic in European cooperation (Germany, Spain and France). They will also be right. For nothing is truly and definitively settled today.

The Bundestag, the supreme arbiter

Why is nothing settled? The launch of phase 1B (detailed studies leading to the definition of a demonstrator), which should be spread over three years, remains suspended on the vote of the all-powerful Bundestag budget committee, which has a right of review over all contracts worth more than 25 million euros signed by the German state. The committee is open to lobbying by German industrialists and therefore still has the power to scupper the agreement. And it will do so without any qualms if it considers that the interests of German industry have been sold out by Berlin. In order to protect them, this committee has made several demands since the beginning of the SCAF and MGCS (future tank) programmes.

The Bundestag's Budget Committee is demanding that the SCAF programme's technological work be divided fairly between two levels, the states and industry. It also demands parallel progress on these two programmes - which seems impossible at this stage - and the consolidation of land armaments, which is equally unrealistic. These two requirements are therefore not currently being met. Moreover, the completion of Phase 1B does not yet make the SCAF irreversible.

So why an agreement now?

Everything has been settled between Airbus and Dassault Aviation since last March, including flight orders, on which the two manufacturers have long been at odds. Dassault Aviation has therefore ensured that the contract reflects the agreement reached between the two manufacturers at the beginning of the year. The flight controls will be supplied off-the-shelf by the French aircraft manufacturer to equip the demonstrator. But Airbus and Dassault Aviation have been fighting especially in the spring and summer over the post-demonstrator period, when the stakes for the two manufacturers will be high. Airbus Germany, which demanded more responsibility for the NGF (Next Generation Fighter) flight orders to support its design offices in Manching, wanted to obtain firm commitments from Dassault Aviation on the post-demonstrator phase. The French aircraft manufacturer did not give in to Airbus' pressing demands.

Why an agreement now? Because there are budgetary credits to spend and which are available. In August 2021, Berlin, Madrid and Paris had explained that they were going to finance phase 1B to the tune of 3.6 billion euros, i.e. 1.2 billion each, as the office of the former Minister of the Army, Florence Parly, had been assured. France has programmed 1.26 billion euros in payment credits between 2023 and 2025 (372.8 million in 2023, 471.17 million in 2024 and 416.51 million in 2025). Being by nature very pragmatic, the industrialists, notably Airbus, did not want to see these available budgetary credits slip away under their noses. For the European aircraft manufacturer, it will then be time to come back later to obtain what it did not get this time.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Germans will play spoil sport.

People should learn from issues in how NH90 and Tiger project is progressing.
 
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Lolwa

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Germans will play spoil sport.

People should learn from issues in how NH90 and Tiger project is progressing.
Germans really don't have anything under their control in SCAF. Airbus Germany is primarily working in the drones and AI department. Majority of the plane design is under French control. Spain is assisting in software, avionics and EW from my understanding. The only issue with the SCAF seems to be the Engine tech. Right now it seems the tempest will be the better dog fighter with better aerial performance atleast from the designs.
 
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Ankit Kumar

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Germans really don't have anything under their control in SCAF. Airbus Germany is primarily working in the drones and AI department. Majority of the plane design is under French control. Spain is assisting in software, avionics and EW from my understanding. The only issue with the SCAF seems to be the Engine tech. Right now it seems the tempest will be the better dog fighter with better aerial performance atleast from the designs.
Everything depends on the number of possible orders. One advantage France has that because it will not buy F35, there is a minimum conformed order for FCAS.

The same cannot be said for Tempest. The American lobby will want to export upto 1000 units atleast.
 

Bon Plan

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Right now it seems the tempest will be the better dog fighter with better aerial performance atleast from the designs.
Are you so a specialist to see in a picture how the birds will fly? Big doubt....
Germans will play spoil sport.

People should learn from issues in how NH90 and Tiger project is progressing.
If the SCAF collapse, French will use all the R&D phase to built their own 6th gen fighter 100%. It will never be the german case. It's a huge difference. French and Germans are fully aware of that.
 
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Lolwa

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Are you so a specialist to see in a picture how the birds will fly? Big doubt....

If the SCAF collapse, French will use all the R&D phase to built their own 6th gen fighter 100%. It will never be the german case. It's a huge difference. French and Germans are fully aware of that.
The only issue is the engine really. France hasn't made as powerful engines as the British grouping. I don't know if they can make atleast 180KN engine else it's not a real sixth plane.
 
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BMD

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Innominate

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Bon Plan

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The only issue is the engine really. France hasn't made as powerful engines as the British grouping. I don't know if they can make atleast 180KN engine else it's not a real sixth plane.
It is more difficult to study an efficient low power engine than a big one.
What is the last high power engine made by GB ? and where is the frontier of a powerfull engine?

So one asset of a 6th gen is a 180Kn engine? LOL. big big LOL. No one of us know the real detail of a 6th gen spec....
 
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Lolwa

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What is the last high power engine made by GB
Ej-200 and f-136 both are kade by RR. They just have active engines for which they can take idea from. NGF needs to target at least 180 KN to compete with planes like j-20,su-57 and f-22. If it doesn't surpass them then it's just another fifth gen plane.
 

randomradio

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Ej-200 and f-136 both are kade by RR. They just have active engines for which they can take idea from. NGF needs to target at least 180 KN to compete with planes like j-20,su-57 and f-22. If it doesn't surpass them then it's just another fifth gen plane.

Depends on the size and weight of the NGF.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Depends on the size and weight of the NGF.
We specify the aircraft by describing what missions it must be able to carry out, and under what conditions, and the last specification, and often the most important, is that the weight of the aircraft must be as low as possible.

The dimensions and empty weight of the Rafale are not very different from those of a Mirage 2000 and yet it has two engines instead of one.
 

randomradio

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We specify the aircraft by describing what missions it must be able to carry out, and under what conditions, and the last specification, and often the most important, is that the weight of the aircraft must be as low as possible.

The dimensions and empty weight of the Rafale are not very different from those of a Mirage 2000 and yet it has two engines instead of one.

I don't really think aircraft of different generations can be compared on the surface like that. For example, in the AMCA threat I just pointed out that the F-35 with its new engine will surpass the Rafale in the missions conducted in the subsonic regime. It's a pretty significant technological difference even if there's only 1 engine, and it's heavier than the Rafale.

Apart from the generation difference, there's a significant weight difference between Rafale and M2000 anyway.

Then there's the Jaguar and M2000, both have the same weight, but with a generation difference. But in the same generation, the Jaguar beats the Mirage V handily.