The Russians actually. The Americans started calling it 5th gen only after the Russians did.
Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion
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The Russians actually. The Americans started calling it 5th gen only after the Russians did.
Classic French rap.
Why then working on neuron drone?
Manpads/ short range sam if set up in right areas will *censored* up rafale then.
And both ukraine and Russia now have lots of experience in setting up a distributed network of manpads, short range mobile Sam systems.
It was also this dispersed air defense system that caused that lucky shot that brought down f117 over Yugoslavia.
Yes and no. While desirable, it's still a standoff weapon operating from outside the range of enemy radars.
Possible, but low band could also mean 1-4 GHz rather than VHF.
Last I heard, standard F3+ came with C/X band and Ku band jammers (5-18 GHz). And IAF asked for low band, similar to SAP-14, so 1-4 GHz, L and S band.
This pod may handle 0.5 to 1/2 GHz.
It does not look like Rafale has anything to jam AWACS and ground-based search radars from standoff ranges, especially when they operate from depth areas with all that new fangled radar tech from extreme ranges.
People think that, but it's not so simple due to the very short range of such SAMs against low altitude targets. Take the Hammer for example, 70 km drops down to 11 km at low altitude. SRSAMs suffer from the same issue. The 100 Km MRSAM is also 10-15 km at low altitude.
And people have a wrong understanding of MANPADS. It's not as widespread as people think it is. And the jet's too fast for MANPADS. It's not a reliable ADS against a target that's going someplace else. It's meant to protect infantry from attacks on itself.
Wasn't so. The F-117 flew through the same route repeatedly. The Serbs pre-positioned SAMs along that route, where the F-117 had created some kinda of highway for itself. HUMINT informed SAM operators when the jet took off, and once detected, they fired dozens of missiles at it. The pilot dodged many but the SAM guys got lucky. Such tactics are absolutely unreliable 'cause the USAF acted like total dumba**es which led to this incident.
Standard band in Rafale are 0.6 - 18 GHz high band to 40 GHz already done and to 300 Ghz to be completed. Low band I don't know but below 0.6 GHz...
Possible. NGJ LB is 200 MHz to 2 GHz. So maybe IAF asked for below 0.6 GHz.
But how much power would that have relative to a standard pod? There are radars at 500-1000 km in China.
Ukraine Shoot Down A Su-35S Using Stinger MANPAD
On 3 April 2022, a Su-35 combat aircraft was shot down near the settlement of Malaya Kamyshevakha near the Kharkiv region. Residents of the Kharkiv region have published photographs of a fighter of…
www.globaldefensecorp.com
The Hexalauncher presented by MBDA. A pod that can carry, within the space of a SCALP, six SmartGlider (gliding, 100km) or SmartCruiser (motorized, 200km) guided bombs. That is up to 18 weapons on Rafale.
This is basically French turbojet Shahed variant?MBDA's mass-produced One Way Effector looks like this:
Range: Approximately 500 km
Payload: Approximately 40 kg
Wingspan: Approximately 3 metres
Cruising speed: Approximately 400 km/h
Guidance: GPS
Propulsion: small turbojet engine
Launch from a ground ramp or vehicle (in salvo)
--> Project financed by MBDA's own funds
--> First demonstration flights expected in the autumn
--> Estimated production time of 18 months after signing a contract
--> Possible production of 1,000 effectors per month
On paper there's a lot of similarities.
Ukraine Shoot Down A Su-35S Using Stinger MANPAD
On 3 April 2022, a Su-35 combat aircraft was shot down near the settlement of Malaya Kamyshevakha near the Kharkiv region. Residents of the Kharkiv region have published photographs of a fighter of…
All that's luck.
The Russians have shown a lot of incompetence in operations due to lack of tech and insufficient training to use whatever tech they already have.
Fighter jets have the abilty to defeat MANPADS quite easily.
For self-protection, yes. But not for area protection. For example, what's protecting the SCALP or Hammer after it's been fired?
The idea being that Rafale would fly low, thereby avoiding the long-range threats. No need of a standoff jammer if no long-range radar can see you. This was the notion that they (and even you, as recently as last week at least) subscribed to.
It's a woefully misconcieved idea of course, because it wholly underestimates the networking behind a modern IADS, and as a result severely limits the kind of missions Rafale can do. Deep penetration going out the window for starters.
It's not a coincedence that this is being pursued alongside the new standoff ARM. The fact that these are capabilities that the Americans realized you need on a 4th/4.5 gen jet about 20-30 years ago just goes to show the kind of lowball approach that Dassault had taken with the Rafale program.
Typhoon's Praetorian already has equivalent capabilities to SPECTRA. The reason why they want an additional layer of EW capability on top of this is because they realize that internal SPJs are no longer sufficient to meet the threats that a non-VLO aircraft will face, especially when penetrating. You need more powerful solutions to deal with new-gen AAMs & SAMs with AESA seekers.
We already found this out the hard way. The jets with external ELL-8222s went entirely unscathed, despite having huge signatures & flying high...while Rafale's internal SPJ was overwhelmed.
Mark my words...the Rafale too will undergo a similar EW upgrade if it wants to survive. It would be straightforward to implement a podded 8222/Scorpius, but without deep integration with the Rafale's system it would hinder the radar & RWR. Again, this would require access to source codes (or a very expensive contract). We don't have this issue with MKI or Tejas.
The Germans have a program called IuWES where an A-400M or equivalent will be converted into a standoff jammer like USAF's Compass Call and IAF's A321.
Airbus Lifts Lid on A400M Stand Off Jammer Variant - Journal of Electromagnetic Dominance
By Richard Scott Airbus Defence and Space GmbH (Manching, Germany) has unveiled a stand-off jammer (www.jedonline.com
Offboard standoff jamming with large platforms like this is a whole other ball game. They are waaaay more powerful...and waaaay less survivable.
M88 T-REX : Safran dévoile son nouveau moteur pour le Super Rafale F5 #ParisAirShow2025
M88 T-REX: Safran unveils its new engine for the Super Rafale F5 #ParisAirShow2025
With the M88 T-REX, Safran is taking a new step in the evolution of military propulsion.
On June 17, 2025, during the second day of the Paris Air Show, Safran officially announced the launch of the M88 T-REX, a higher-thrust version of its M88 military engine. This new iteration, named to evoke power and dominance, is part of the development of the Rafale F5, the future version of Dassault Aviation's multirole combat aircraft.
Safran's M88 T-Rex: a new, more powerful engine with an evocative name
With the M88 T-REX, Safran is taking a new step in the evolution of military propulsion. This engine maintains the dimensions, modularity, fuel consumption, and cost of ownership of the current M88, while offering an afterburner thrust of 9 tons—a 20% increase over the standard version.
According to Safran's press release, this increased performance is made possible through localized and targeted improvements. The low-pressure compressor has been redesigned to accommodate a higher airflow. The high-pressure turbine, meanwhile, incorporates new-generation materials and innovative cooling circuits. Finally, the nozzle benefits from optimized aerodynamics.
The M88: Dassault's Rafale turbofan
Technically, the M88 is a military turbofan designed to offer an optimal balance between performance, reliability, modularity, and cost of ownership. Initially developed to power Dassault Aviation's Rafale, this engine has proven its robustness over the years. The new version, the M88 T-REX, represents a targeted evolution of the existing model, without changing its dimensions. It is based on localized improvements: a modified low-pressure compressor to allow for a higher airflow, a high-pressure turbine incorporating innovative materials and next-generation cooling circuits, as well as an aerodynamically optimized nozzle. Thanks to these improvements, the M88 T-REX achieves a thrust of 9 tons with afterburner, 20% more than the current version. Despite this increased performance, the engine retains modular compatibility with the standard M88, ensuring seamless integration into existing maintenance lines and fleets, while facilitating the transition to the new Rafale standards, particularly the F5.
M88 T-REX: The Rafale F5 will benefit from more propulsion power
One of the major challenges of the M88 T-REX is its compatibility with future Rafale standards. Safran indicates that the M88 T-REX modules will remain compatible with those of the current M88, a strategic choice to facilitate fleet management and optimize maintainability. This modular approach ensures a smooth transition, without a major overhaul of the airframe or excessive increases in logistics costs.
Safran specifies that the engine is still in the de-risking study phase, a crucial step before actual development. However, the qualification schedule for the M88 T-REX is already aligned with the entry into service of the Rafale at the F5 standard, ensuring coordination between the two programs.
Defense sector industrial sovereignty at stake
The M88 T-REX program is rooted in Safran's stated commitment to strengthening national sovereignty in military propulsion. Christophe Bruneau, Senior Vice President of the Military Engines Division at Safran Aircraft Engines, said: "We are proud to launch this project to develop an engine that will push the limits of the M88 to meet the evolving needs of our armed forces customers in an unstable geopolitical context." He added: "The development of the M88 T-REX will also allow us to complete our technological portfolio, benefiting our entire product range and strengthening our sovereignty."
With the M88 T-REX, Safran confirms its commitment to innovation while consolidating its industrial assets. By offering a more powerful engine, compatible with, and strategically aligned with the Rafale F5, the group intends to anticipate tomorrow's operational requirements without disrupting existing supply chains. This represents a decisive step in mastering French military propulsion.
M88 T-REX: Safran unveils its new engine for the Super Rafale F5 #ParisAirShow2025
With the M88 T-REX, Safran is taking a new step in the evolution of military propulsion.
On June 17, 2025, during the second day of the Paris Air Show, Safran officially announced the launch of the M88 T-REX, a higher-thrust version of its M88 military engine. This new iteration, named to evoke power and dominance, is part of the development of the Rafale F5, the future version of Dassault Aviation's multirole combat aircraft.
Safran's M88 T-Rex: a new, more powerful engine with an evocative name
With the M88 T-REX, Safran is taking a new step in the evolution of military propulsion. This engine maintains the dimensions, modularity, fuel consumption, and cost of ownership of the current M88, while offering an afterburner thrust of 9 tons—a 20% increase over the standard version.
According to Safran's press release, this increased performance is made possible through localized and targeted improvements. The low-pressure compressor has been redesigned to accommodate a higher airflow. The high-pressure turbine, meanwhile, incorporates new-generation materials and innovative cooling circuits. Finally, the nozzle benefits from optimized aerodynamics.
The M88: Dassault's Rafale turbofan
Technically, the M88 is a military turbofan designed to offer an optimal balance between performance, reliability, modularity, and cost of ownership. Initially developed to power Dassault Aviation's Rafale, this engine has proven its robustness over the years. The new version, the M88 T-REX, represents a targeted evolution of the existing model, without changing its dimensions. It is based on localized improvements: a modified low-pressure compressor to allow for a higher airflow, a high-pressure turbine incorporating innovative materials and next-generation cooling circuits, as well as an aerodynamically optimized nozzle. Thanks to these improvements, the M88 T-REX achieves a thrust of 9 tons with afterburner, 20% more than the current version. Despite this increased performance, the engine retains modular compatibility with the standard M88, ensuring seamless integration into existing maintenance lines and fleets, while facilitating the transition to the new Rafale standards, particularly the F5.
M88 T-REX: The Rafale F5 will benefit from more propulsion power
One of the major challenges of the M88 T-REX is its compatibility with future Rafale standards. Safran indicates that the M88 T-REX modules will remain compatible with those of the current M88, a strategic choice to facilitate fleet management and optimize maintainability. This modular approach ensures a smooth transition, without a major overhaul of the airframe or excessive increases in logistics costs.
Safran specifies that the engine is still in the de-risking study phase, a crucial step before actual development. However, the qualification schedule for the M88 T-REX is already aligned with the entry into service of the Rafale at the F5 standard, ensuring coordination between the two programs.
Defense sector industrial sovereignty at stake
The M88 T-REX program is rooted in Safran's stated commitment to strengthening national sovereignty in military propulsion. Christophe Bruneau, Senior Vice President of the Military Engines Division at Safran Aircraft Engines, said: "We are proud to launch this project to develop an engine that will push the limits of the M88 to meet the evolving needs of our armed forces customers in an unstable geopolitical context." He added: "The development of the M88 T-REX will also allow us to complete our technological portfolio, benefiting our entire product range and strengthening our sovereignty."
With the M88 T-REX, Safran confirms its commitment to innovation while consolidating its industrial assets. By offering a more powerful engine, compatible with, and strategically aligned with the Rafale F5, the group intends to anticipate tomorrow's operational requirements without disrupting existing supply chains. This represents a decisive step in mastering French military propulsion.
You have jets at all altitudes when conducting a mission. The Rafale flying in low is one part of the equation.
And as I said about the jammer in the post to Picdel, even the weapons need to survive the journey.
Typhoon's is an escort jammer, not standoff. The role it plays is entirely different from self-protection or standoff.
Self-protection protects itself. Standoff operates from outside the range of SAMs. Escort jammer operates inside SAM rings but forms a perimeter around the strike package.
PAF was incompetent in Sindoor, they fired their missiles from Dmax. Anyway you are just guessing.
No, it does the same thing as a podded standoff jammer, but from longer range and covers a greater area, that's all. Both are generally equally survivable because they operate from outside SAM rings, ie, they do not operate in contested airspace.
You can see here that even with the F-22 and F-35, the Growler is providing a modified escort jamming, which sits between escort and standoff, while Compass Call provides standoff jamming too.
So why is the F-22 being given Growler support now?
TBf at this stage the Pakistani mirage 3/5 has superior strike capabilities than the rafale. They are using H2/H4 sows with 120km range. And have the ra'ad alcm for striking 650km. While we have to buy overpriced scalp and hammers which are short ranged and can't be produced in house. Also the saaw needs to be integrated on the rafale.
SCALP has seen mixed success in Russia due to lack of EW support from Ukraine.
The UK intends to replace the Storm Shadow with Israel's Rampage.
Ukraine's 'Biggest Ever' Storm Shadow Attack Fails Miserably As Russia Learns From Sep 13 Missile Strikes
In an unprecedented daylight strike on September 20, Ukraine launched 8 Strom Shadows stealth cruise missiles from 11 Su-24M tactical bombers targeting Russia’s Black Sea Fleet (BSF) at Sevastopol. Despite the use of sophisticated tactics such as flying low over the Black Sea to escape detection...
www.eurasiantimes.com
Without sufficient standoff EW, the missiles have become easy pickings.
The IAF can degrade the performance of L and S band radars using SAP-14.