You can have multiple type of seeking mechanism and mix and match of seeking mechnisms. You have brahmos with milimeter waves and you have Klub with electro optic IR seeker with terminal supersonic stage.
Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile : News, Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Manmohan_MMY
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I highly doubt anyone can make an aircraft carrier "VLO" or "LO". Damage and sink the damn carrier and you have entire package lost with its ability to project power. You can also use missile launched torpedoes in groups for added area denial. Let them try to be stealth against both underwater and airborne threats. Cripple them in water and given they are this far from their home port, you can take your time to sink them.
Sukhois with BrahMos-A is indeed our best sea denial weapon/platform. A fleet of MKIs carrying it can fire it from different directions towards any hostile PLAN carrier and result won't be to their favour and they know it.
So more speed and more range is always welcome.
@marich01
One of further advantages having a longer range BrahMos is that overall increase in high altitude range also transfers to low level range increase and trust me that is absolutely vital.
When its high range was limited to 290kms, low level range was around 120kms IIRC. But now with 800kms BrahMos ER, its low level nap of the earth/sea skimmimg range would be around 400kms. Which means MKI doesn't need to take risk and go inside PLAN Carrier fleet AD and just release BrahMos-A ER 400kms away and voila it would be literally unseen for the enemy until its too late.
The prospects of both increase in range and speed is simply tantalizing and almost too good to ignore, IMO.
One of further advantages having a longer range BrahMos is that overall increase in high altitude range also transfers to low level range increase and trust me that is absolutely vital.
When its high range was limited to 290kms, low level range was around 120kms IIRC. But now with 800kms BrahMos ER, its low level nap of the earth/sea skimmimg range would be around 400kms. Which means MKI doesn't need to take risk and go inside PLAN Carrier fleet AD and just release BrahMos-A ER 400kms away and voila it would be literally unseen for the enemy until its too late.
The prospects of both increase in range and speed is simply tantalizing and almost too good to ignore, IMO.
Indian fanboys have a fetish about Brahmos. Thats their answer to everything. They dont understand its huge disadvantages in cost and weight. Its not meant to be fired from combat aircraft, small ships or small submarines. Its so expensive that for one brahmos you can fire 4 ATACMS in land attack role. A nation needs a mix of missiles for different usecases. But our DRDO failed to produce a respectable cost effective anti ship missile after few decades of experience with the russian missile. What a shame.
Brazilians quickly made their own and even exported it.
en.wikipedia.org
Brazilians quickly made their own and even exported it.
MANSUP - Wikipedia
If you are suggesting a blockade , it will definitely not bee enforced with coast guard ships.
As with ramjet, despite 20+ years of work we are yet to finalise a proprietary ramjet engine of our own. So comparing with a foreign system, however experimental, is kinda moot. We have strong theory based knowledge, that can be seen from all the docs I have seen over the years on project Star. Even recently there were stuff out on it. But as long as that is applied in a practical product, a landmark can not be made.
Then comes the stretching of the range part by use of other enabling technologies. My question was more on the boundary condition of ramjet application wise. Range can be extended by keeping same flight duration but increasing operational mach no, or by increasing total flight time. But how far should you be stretching that, there must be a limit where you can not overplay the reach of this missile so that its unique skillset become nullified.
Does it matter at all? We are able to manufacture very large number of Brahmos domestically. We are no longer importing ramjets for brahmos and manufacture it locally.
And you are wrong about ramjet engines of our own. Akash used to use ramjet engines for sustainer motor.
When 1964 drones have range of several 1000 Kms, I am sure we can get 1500 km range out of ramjets. enough for Ashm role and costal defence range for our requirement.
Say you fire 200 million dollars worth of Brahmos (that is 50 or more brahmos) and sink two destroyers (Type 55) worth 800-900 million dollars each with sailors. So you get 1.8 billion dollars worth of damage done for 200 million dollars spent. I will say thats a good deal. Now, that destroyers are gone, other ships in the flotilla are more vulnerable. Supply ships are sitting ducks to be taken out by much simpler weapons or even air dropped bombs because destroyers are not there to protect them. Not to mention, blockade will cause severe economic damage.
Weapons have immediate and second order effects.
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We manufacture the 2 solid booster motors , the 60kg and the 760kg ones, actual ramjet motor the super compact one comes from Rus as part of the JV. Plan is not to change that to keep the jv copany alive. The Brahmos NG will be 100% local per the CEO, which sort of indicates it might all solid rocket motor instead of ramjet.
In case of Akash, not 100% sure but the project director in his experience listed full liaison work re 100% tech transfer related work way back when the project started. There is a chance the ramjet related tech was part of, which is why it is certain commitment and guideline protected, ie the particular frozen tech parameters QAP etc can not be used in another (offensive) weapon system. This is a binding clause which if exists (very likely) would explain why Akash sustainer motor tech did not find use in other offensive weapon system yet. See dual pulse tech was matured during MRSAM work, and now most missiles are being made with that, soon three/multi pulse systems will appear in future.
The range part, when you are designing a rocket, you need to base your design on certain boundary conditions, else the design would not produce an optimised performance. You certainly do not make a 350mm dia rocket travel to very long distance at such high speed load resulting in prolonged period of thermal stress than permitted. Interestingly, Onyx news also came out today from Rus, and they also extended it to 800km per the news. That is an optimum value for peak performance. Stretch it to double the amount and there can be performance faults. Aero systems have zero-very low fault tolerance when mfg is done.
Then comes the point of comparing b/w an unmanned drone/aircraft vs a guided missile. Both are technically same, but performance demand are different as are various components esp guidance and homing. So optimisation is different. One can be for long flight but just for flight, no smart weapon use. Weaponisation of the same drone/unmanned system would alter several parameters.
So again another milestone achieved due to the lack of know how in turbine engine which is hurting Indian cruise missile program just like AMCA, Mk1, and Marut. I hope the genius people realize the shortcoming.
Its just my guess , there is no proof to show yet. It could feature a ramjet after all. Given DRDO expertise, and NG spec of wanting to reduce the missile weight to half while keeping the range and payload the same and slight increase in speed, a solid fuel version makes sense, solely as an air launched missile. It can be made dual pulse as well as a cruise vehicle if ramjet is applied. lets see, I am hoping it retains a ramjet made by DRDO and the cruise flight characteristics. Otherwise there is not much difference between a 300 km Rudram 2 and NG.
India has Brahmos past over a decade and no perfection in scram jet engine technology, or turbine tech. Close GTRE and give the job to some private sector.
Army Brahmos ER , there seems to be some color difference between the pics and the actual one which fly in video, obv difference ? Even the canisters are of different paint. One is probably with some test modules?
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Why to reinvent the wheel? We can purchase that technologies from.Russia ,in present scenario.
They should have already done it by now. Because in actual war there will be shortage of everything and still you have to create these scramjets in an undisclosed location. For that you need the technology NOW.
India delivers first batch of BrahMos to Philippines
India delivered the first batch of BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles to Philippines on Friday. In January 2022, Philippines concluded a $375-million deal with India for three batteries of shore-based, anti-ship variant of the BrahMos becoming the first export customer for the joint venture missile between India and Russia.
The first batch was delivered onboard transport aircraft of the Indian Air Force which landed in Philippines on Friday afternoon. Specifics of the delivery made were not immediately available. Philippines is acquiring the systems under the Horizon 2 of the Revised Armed Forces of the Philippines Modernization Programme.
The delivery comes amid the showdown between Philippines and China in the South China Sea which has been ongoing for the last few months and will significantly augment the defensive posture of the Philippines armed forces once the systems are operationalised.
During his visit to Philippines in March, External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar in a meeting with the Secretary of National Defence of Philippines Gilberto C. Teodoro, Jr. reaffirmed India’s commitment to upholding a rules-based international order and promoting peace and security in the Indo-Pacific region. “During the high-level meeting, Secretary Teodoro welcomed India’s unwavering support for the Philippines’ position on the West Philippine Sea/South China Sea issue,” the Philippines Ministry of the armed forces said in a statement.
In January 2022, then Philippines Defence Secretary Delfin N. Lorenzana, who signed the contract, had said, “As the world’s fastest supersonic cruise missiles, the BrahMos missiles will provide deterrence against any attempt to undermine our sovereignty and sovereign rights, especially in the West Philippine Sea.”
The contract includes the delivery of three missile batteries, training for operators and maintainers as well as the necessary Integrated Logistics Support package. The coastal defence regiment of the Philippine Marines will be the primary user of the missile systems.
From January 23 to February 11, 2023, 21 Philippine Navy personnel were trained in the operations and maintenance of the systems in Nagpur and were awarded interim missile badges by Indian Navy Chief Admiral R. Hari Kumar after they completed the operator training.
As reported earlier, several countries have expressed interest in acquiring BrahMos systems and discussions are in advanced stages with Indonesia and Thailand among others.
BrahMos is a joint venture between DRDO and Russia’s NPO Mashinostroyeniya and the missile derives its name from Brahmaputra and Moskva rivers. The missile is capable of being launched from land, sea, sub-sea and air against surface and sea-based targets and has been long inducted by the Indian armed forces.
The range of the missile was originally capped at 290km as per obligations of the Missile Technology Control Regime. Following India’s entry into the club in June 2016, the range has been extended to 450km and work is on to extend it to 600km and beyond.
Possibly some Shivalik class or maybe Talwar class to get brahmos fitted.
Exclusive: Probe flags 'security breach' at BrahMos HQ, says ex-DRDO DG carried 'confidential' file out
DRDO Vigilance Department reports accessed exclusively by Firstpost show that a former Director General (DG) of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is believed to have moved confidential company documents out of the premises of BrahMos Aerospace
So today DRDO announced that bit about the ramjet fuel and everybody is saying its for Brahmos. But Brahmos being Rus proprietary ramjet, it obviously uses the Rus fuel T-6 which we import. CSIR in their compendium mentioned about a feasibility study on indigenising the fuel (as we already have heard about) so I am curious if today's announcement has any link with it ? @Ashwin @Gautam @Rajput Lion @Fatalis
or we will use this specific grade that is announced today on the DRDO made ramjet & its spinoffs , while the Rus ramjet will keep using that & later the indigenised fuel ?
or we will use this specific grade that is announced today on the DRDO made ramjet & its spinoffs , while the Rus ramjet will keep using that & later the indigenised fuel ?