thats right , unless there is satcom or external guidance it will be hard to hit the target. Further the target more the area it needs to scan. For a fixed target it might look ok but for mobile targets, chances of hitting decreases further we go .
Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile : News, Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Manmohan_MMY
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1500 kms BrahMos was always the plan for quite some time:
Source: India now working on 1,500-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile
Source: India now working on 1,500-km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile
Yeah, hence I was curious as to why the user would need a precision cruise weapon with a limited warhead 200-300kg, that needs to neutralise a perceived high priority threat over 1K km away while maintaining its flight profile (terminal stage very low flying mode or steep down attack whichever) which was initially a concept to neutralise a ship sized target.
Say , you have the fixed/part mobile target at far out 1300km like a train shop with loaded war cargo inside a large setup, or at a junction station still waiting on the rail track before moving elsewhere. Estimate is about same 300kg class warhead can maybe neutralise it. If you have option of both Brahmos and Shaurya like quasi BM with 300kg warhead , what would you choose for this mission? A third option is also there as a missile option is long range Nirbhay class with a large conventional payload of 700kg-1 ton. So what would you choose?
yes that can be too esp as they have shown plans to upgrade the speed profile to 5 mach , assuming all other technical parameters remain the same, compared to the current 2.3-2.5 mach cruising Brahmos, a 5mach one obviously gets to such extended very long range.
My question is mostly centered on payload part, would it not be better to trade some range for a bigger 500kg class payload? current conflict shows us the need for high level damage.
What about pounding the same 1500kms range target with BrahMos, Shaurya & Nirbhay at the same/similar time from different vectors to break, saturate and overwhelm the enemy formidable IADS network to take out a high value target
Rest with time we shall know more.......
That is in the latter part of a conflict with far more Ad challenge maybe. For now just consider a test case under normal circumstances. Is it logical to just prolong the reach of the arm or better to improve the enabling technologies and the lethality of the weapon? As an anti ship weapon it is definitely something an armed force would like no doubt. But as an all round choice ie land attack role from multiple platforms, perhaps it is better to improve the payload and the accuracy too because the faster it gets and the further it goes, that accuracy part will be first to be hampered imo. Seeker tech need to be very precise, actuated controls and terminal guidance also need to be more precise etc.What about pounding the same 1500kms range target with BrahMos, Shaurya & Nirbhay at the same/similar time from different vectors to break, saturate and overwhelm the enemy formidable IADS network to take out a high value target
Rest with time we shall know more.......
This is primarily an anti ship missile... Wanna know what it is good for?
With Brahmos 800 KM variant
With 1500 KM variant:
You dig tunnels to secure mobile Brahmos batteries on Andoman and Nicorbar Islands. Hide the missile batteries, provide cover with vegetation. Put few S-400s and MR SAM for good measure and provide air cover from main land and / or air base in Andoman and boom, you have an unsinkable aircraft carrier and destroyer. No submarine can do anything to it. No amount of bombardment can sink it.
What is the chance that the seeker would pick up another ship & then we will be in the middle of another international controversy? That lane is quite busy you know, far busy than the vast open backyard of ours. We think in very lateral terms, war planners need to consider parallel aspects too.
I already addressed the anti ship utility part in the last post above. My query was regarding an allround attack option like how Brahmos is touted now. Even aside that, warfare still need to respect international laws. So prolonging the reach is not the matter, making it more precise is where the task is hard. The scramjet powered one, that will be about 800-900km max due to operational time constraint. From use case perspective, it makes little sense to extend the reach only while sacrificing other parameters. That is why the armed forces still test it so often.
When there will be war, India will declare a blockade of that Strait for Any Chinese ship. Naturally any ships will avoid that route. It will further put pressure on China to not escalate or it will become everyone's problem very soon.
It will also bring likes of America into that part of ocean, further making things hard for Chinese navy. I mean if Yemen can cause havoc with their premitive drones, Indian military can cause massive disrruption to China.
I doubt that would be the case and in such easy permutation. Some form of blockade will be there of course, but not in such extent of Brahmos use case.
Anyway, I was pointing out in technical part mainly ie whether a ramjet can keep functional for such very long duration use or the existing seeker, guidance capacity, ECCM feature etc without any compromise of the unique usp that the original concept offered. 800-900km is very good ability itself, plus you have it on su30 means an extended reach anyway. Stretch it more to 1500km under current DRDO ability and you might lose its sharp effectiveness. Anything over 1000km band should go to LR-AShM jurisdiction, which is what it is being built for.
Future of Indian Armed Forces is going to be full-on Net Centric. Ultra long range BrahMos would be either
guided by our space based assets or even by our in-development HAPS. HAPS also would be more survival as any peer level enemy would destroy most of our space based satellites.
guided by our space based assets or even by our in-development HAPS. HAPS also would be more survival as any peer level enemy would destroy most of our space based satellites.
Brahmos is for warships. For civilian ships, Indian coast guard ships and drones are enough to deter.
Why will ramjet NOT work?
Have you met Lockheed D-21? Lockheed D-21 - Wikipedia
It was a ramjet powered recce drone while flew at 3.35 mach over distancs of 5000+ KM.
And this is from 1964.
Also why will guidance have issues? INS works over several 1000 KMs. INS with GPS augmentation works very precisely. And this is not fighters we are chasing. This is massive ships! Destroyers, Aircraft carriers. There is no reason why seeker will fail!
Speed don't bring you invincibility. Even 800 km range is stretch for supersonic cruise missiles.
Ukrain managed to down two tsirkon missile.
Ukrain managed to down two tsirkon missile.
Individual missiles not need to be invicible. Volleys after volleys of missiles will certainly hurt an aircraft carrier battle group. Remember, on an island we can store way more missiles. Any one single destroyer destroyed is enough to offset 100s to 1000s of brahmos.
What will China do if it sees 50-100 brahmos coming at its destroyers and aircraft carrier at a 3 mach speed and volleys that never end? At somepoint all their VLS will be depleated and refilling them will take way long. Then the missiles will hit. If we sink their aircraft carrier, we have done enough damage to put 100 missiles on it.
Its the asymetry that will work in our favour.
If it is in short range,then difficult to intercept. If it is at long range,relatively easy to intercept using electronic deception method. I remember once US Navy successfully did similar things on a houthi missile,it splashed in to the ocean.
proof of downing? random twitter account beyrektar_love cat profile. lol,
There is a difference between houthi using GPS (public) and India using multiple navs including its own. India has seen that in tests and have fixed it.
It was not part of recent events, few years old.
It's not mere by interfering GPS, if needed target can mimic it's own mirror image electronically somewhere and missile will home towards it.
If you can get a missile lock on such target at 800+ km range Brahmose, I will call it an alien technology.
If you wanna target a stealth ship at extremely longer range, then I will prefer a missile with technology similar to NSM of Norway.
thats a catamaran hull shallow water missile boat, why do you want to waste a BrahMos or NSM for it, that too from long ranges,
btw the article you quoted is saying opposite about it stealth claims and no large warship is true stealth(VLO) barring Zumwalt class DDGs of USN, everything else employ LO shapings with still open gun and other weapons and sensors protruding out.
If you launch a ballistic missile that's huge escalation and could be mistaken as a nuclear strike. And Brahmos type of missile works well even without payload due to it's high kinetic energy. More over it will fill the gap of Nirbhay in case it doesn't come up with good engine.
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