Arjun Main Battle Tank (Mk-1 & Mk-2)

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
11,999
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Tripura, NE, India
118 is the figure I read which still too low. @Gautam
Too much going on with the Arjuns. Quite a few new concepts/versions are being invested upon at the same time. The Arjun Mk1 has deficiencies like the Tejas Mk1. But unlike the Tejas the Arjun has no fixed upgradation path. The IA is afraid that investing too much on one version (Arjun Mk1A) could cause them to lose out on the other upcoming versions(Like the GNMBT).

A few years back you could argue Arjun's upgradation path was more certain & I would've agree with you. The aerospace ecosystem has leaped ahead considerably in the last few years, largely due to IAF's backing. IA has done none of that unfortunately. The relation between the parent service endorsement & growth of industry is profound, this needs to be a subject of serious study.

That doesn't mean all problems are gone. Look at shipbuilding, still plenty of problems with delays & cost overruns. But the industry is strong & stable. That's where I see the aerospace ecosystem going in some time.
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
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Bangalore

PM Narendra Modi to dedicate 118 Arjun MK-1A tanks to Army in Chennai​

 
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Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
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625
Mumbai
Too much going on with the Arjuns. Quite a few new concepts/versions are being invested upon at the same time. The Arjun Mk1 has deficiencies like the Tejas Mk1. But unlike the Tejas the Arjun has no fixed upgradation path. The IA is afraid that investing too much on one version (Arjun Mk1A) could cause them to lose out on the other upcoming versions(Like the GNMBT).

A few years back you could argue Arjun's upgradation path was more certain & I would've agree with you. The aerospace ecosystem has leaped ahead considerably in the last few years, largely due to IAF's backing. IA has done none of that unfortunately. The relation between the parent service endorsement & growth of industry is profound, this needs to be a subject of serious study.

That doesn't mean all problems are gone. Look at shipbuilding, still plenty of problems with delays & cost overruns. But the industry is strong & stable. That's where I see the aerospace ecosystem going in some time.
Or because of this?
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
1,490
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Bangalore
EuKOrXQVcAEDRcX.jpeg

😍😍😍
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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India
They still haven't covered the mantle and gunners site area with armour. I hope the production versions do have it similar to how it's on the leopard 2a4ng. No armour on the skirts too. No cage armour. A lot of flaws for a modern tank in 2020 but well this had to be orderedView attachment 19289

It's already too underpowered, never mind mixing all of that to the bulk. The Germans were smart enough to offer only an old 1400HP engine because they knew the tank will lose any and all growth potential. The tank definitely needs a 1800HP engine, hopefully DRDO delivers soon.

As for the armour, it's like a mix of slightly better than the T-72 in some cases and slightly better than the T-90 in some cases. It doesn't meet requirements in Punjab, but it does in Rajasthan. So the numbers ordered are fine for the Rajasthan front. Those frontal armour holes due to the sight and mantlet are horrendous. It's definitely not a frontline tank like the T-90 yet although it will have firepower parity with the new ammo, whereas the Indian T-90's firepower has not improved due to autoloader limitations. Otoh, the Russians have taken their T-90 up to NATO standards with the T-90M.

Pakistan's new VT-4 likely demonstrates firepower parity and armour superiority over Arjun Mk1A. VT-4 is the new threat Arjun will be facing.

But, with the success of Mk1A, I have hope for the future of armour development now. We need new generation tanks after 2030.
 

Lolwa

Well-Known member
Feb 6, 2020
822
617
Delhi
It's already too underpowered, never mind mixing all of that to the bulk. The Germans were smart enough to offer only an old 1400HP engine because they knew the tank will lose any and all growth potential. The tank definitely needs a 1800HP engine, hopefully DRDO delivers soon.

As for the armour, it's like a mix of slightly better than the T-72 in some cases and slightly better than the T-90 in some cases. It doesn't meet requirements in Punjab, but it does in Rajasthan. So the numbers ordered are fine for the Rajasthan front. Those frontal armour holes due to the sight and mantlet are horrendous. It's definitely not a frontline tank like the T-90 yet although it will have firepower parity with the new ammo, whereas the Indian T-90's firepower has not improved due to autoloader limitations. Otoh, the Russians have taken their T-90 up to NATO standards with the T-90M.

Pakistan's new VT-4 likely demonstrates firepower parity and armour superiority over Arjun Mk1A. VT-4 is the new threat Arjun will be facing.

But, with the success of Mk1A, I have hope for the future of armour development now. We need new generation tanks after 2030.
Germans funnily also instead of giving us the 2a5 design which they were developing gave us 2a4. Arjun really needs to have massive changes its right now a pretty mediocre tank. Modifying the hull and changing the turret along up armouring with better nera and era coverage as well as upgunning it will really make it one of the best tanks because the design has potential but it needs major modifications. And ofcourse a 2000 hp engine will do the magic. Electronics wise it's quite ahead to most Subcontinent tanks..
 
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Hydra

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May 19, 2020
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625
Mumbai
It's already too underpowered, never mind mixing all of that to the bulk. The Germans were smart enough to offer only an old 1400HP engine because they knew the tank will lose any and all growth potential. The tank definitely needs a 1800HP engine, hopefully DRDO delivers soon.

As for the armour, it's like a mix of slightly better than the T-72 in some cases and slightly better than the T-90 in some cases. It doesn't meet requirements in Punjab, but it does in Rajasthan. So the numbers ordered are fine for the Rajasthan front. Those frontal armour holes due to the sight and mantlet are horrendous. It's definitely not a frontline tank like the T-90 yet although it will have firepower parity with the new ammo, whereas the Indian T-90's firepower has not improved due to autoloader limitations. Otoh, the Russians have taken their T-90 up to NATO standards with the T-90M.

Pakistan's new VT-4 likely demonstrates firepower parity and armour superiority over Arjun Mk1A. VT-4 is the new threat Arjun will be facing.

But, with the success of Mk1A, I have hope for the future of armour development now. We need new generation tanks after 2030.
Why we are not developing a shakthi based turbine engine for Arjun. I know that a turbine engine is fuel guzzler and expensive. But right now we have only the technology to make a gas turbine engine, a 1800 bhp engine technology is simply dont exist in India/DRDO. The easiest option is shakthi derived turbine engine for Arjun.
 

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
11,999
8,132
Tripura, NE, India
Or because of this?
I think the probability of Armata import is quite low. There are many problems with this proposition. Importing from Russia is problematic due to CAASTA. Russia will likely continue mollycoddling with China, why should we take on additional problems then ? S400 was needed, Armata less so.

Also, Modi has invested too much political capital on "Aatmanirbhar Bharat" as we can see with his personal attendance in the handover ceremony of the Arjun tank. The GoI is pressurizing the IA to take buy more domestic. It is difficult for IA to get any tank import when the PM invests personal political credibility against that.
 

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,316
625
Mumbai
TI think the probability of Armata import is quite low. There are many problems with this proposition. Importing from Russia is problematic due to CAASTA. Russia will likely continue mollycoddling with China, why should we take on additional problems then ? S400 was needed, Armata less so.

Also, Modi has invested too much political capital on "Aatmanirbhar Bharat" as we can see with his personal attendance in the handover ceremony of the Arjun tank. The GoI is pressurizing the IA to take buy more domestic. It is difficult for IA to get any tank import when the PM invests personal political credibility against that.
Agreed, i too have same opinion, just shared a news
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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Germans funnily also instead of giving us the 2a5 design which they were developing gave us 2a4. Arjun really needs to have massive changes its right now a pretty mediocre tank. Modifying the hull and changing the turret along up armouring with better nera and era coverage as well as upgunning it will really make it one of the best tanks because the design has potential but it needs major modifications. And ofcourse a 2000 hp engine will do the magic. Electronics wise it's quite ahead to most Subcontinent tanks..

There's no more growth potential in the tank.
Why we are not developing a shakthi based turbine engine for Arjun. I know that a turbine engine is fuel guzzler and expensive. But right now we have only the technology to make a gas turbine engine, a 1800 bhp engine technology is simply dont exist in India/DRDO. The easiest option is shakthi derived turbine engine for Arjun.

A hyperbar engine is to be developed for FRCV/FMBT.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,121
1,162
India
I think the probability of Armata import is quite low. There are many problems with this proposition. Importing from Russia is problematic due to CAASTA. Russia will likely continue mollycoddling with China, why should we take on additional problems then ? S400 was needed, Armata less so.

Also, Modi has invested too much political capital on "Aatmanirbhar Bharat" as we can see with his personal attendance in the handover ceremony of the Arjun tank. The GoI is pressurizing the IA to take buy more domestic. It is difficult for IA to get any tank import when the PM invests personal political credibility against that.
As dharmic plate in Twitter pointed out ,
News of armata import just the day before PM hands over Arjun seems to be smear campaign by vested interests.

After Dovals suggestion of days of tank is over , Missile are the area of focus ..
I doubt Armata will get priority.

Meanwhile Pakistani navy personnel made a visit in Russia to the type of frigate we are buying..
 

raghu1974

Member
Nov 19, 2020
117
90
Phoenix, AZ USA
Or because of this?
The timing of the news is quite interesting. When there is finally some movement with the procurement of Arjun MBT, here comes the news of a potential purchase of T-14 Armata tanks. This is a classic example of how the import lobby works. India might eventually buy them due to pressure from the Indian Army but this exposes the clear & present danger of the Import Lobby to the Make In India / Atmanirbarta initiative. Indian government needs a better escape velocity to escape out of the grips of this lobbyists. Combine this with another news that Indian Army has ordered the last of the Arjun MBTs and there won't be any more orders, it gives us a clear picture of how information warfare / opinion builders work on our psyche. DRDO and private industries should be given a 5 year window to come up with a new Medium weight MBT. I am confident that with the lessons learnt, our researchers and industry have the technical knowhows to come up with the prototypes of the FMBT.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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The timing of the news is quite interesting. When there is finally some movement with the procurement of Arjun MBT, here comes the news of a potential purchase of T-14 Armata tanks. This is a classic example of how the import lobby works. India might eventually buy them due to pressure from the Indian Army but this exposes the clear & present danger of the Import Lobby to the Make In India / Atmanirbarta initiative. Indian government needs a better escape velocity to escape out of the grips of this lobbyists. Combine this with another news that Indian Army has ordered the last of the Arjun MBTs and there won't be any more orders, it gives us a clear picture of how information warfare / opinion builders work on our psyche. DRDO and private industries should be given a 5 year window to come up with a new Medium weight MBT. I am confident that with the lessons learnt, our researchers and industry have the technical knowhows to come up with the prototypes of the FMBT.

There's no pressure from the army to import Armata. There's actually no pressure to import any tank. The plan now is to develop at home with the help of Indian and foreign developers and control the IP fully.

Armata or any new generation tank being developed anywhere else are still immature, the IA is not gonna invest in such technologies outside India. The focus for imports will continue to be aimed towards the T-90.

The strategic needs of the country have changed. Which is why the main focus now is to indigenise, be it the army, air force or navy.
 
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