Adani - Leonardo collaboration on helicopter ecosystem in India

[_Anonymous_]

I was referring to your point about a hypothetical naval LCH and how it would require a whole different airframe/version.

Tri-service acquisitions have been happening for years now. A good example is the IN taking the lead in coordinating the purchase of MQ-9Bs. In the case of the RSH prog, it was the IAF.

Happening for years now ? Which other substantial examples can you think apart from the Predator drones ? Besides this too is a recent development .

I'm not referring to some Gatling gun adapted from the IN CIWS to the IA or IAF or vice versa though these developments too are fairly recent.

The late PKS used to bring up plenty of examples where synergy could boost numbers bring down costs besides bettering our bargaining position w.r.t imports .

Alas ! To no avail. He spent most of his answers or blogsposts berating the myopia of the armed forces & lack of foresight of the MoD in no uncertain terms.

The govt has been asking the services to prioritize acquisitions and even planning via HQ IDS (LTIPP et all). Though that hasn't quite stopped one or the other service from replicating the same capability in use with another service at exorbitant cost (Army - Apache)

Let's hope this becomes a routine phenomenon @ synergizing requirements.

As long as a weapons system meets the respective SQRs, the forces will buy even equipment nearing obsolescence or even replacement in their home countries.

This is where the danger lies. We know for a fact that the MCIWS was a wild goose chase. MP himself castigated the IA for coming up with comic book SQRs. We now know how things panned out .

DRDO / OFB was kept out & infantry weapons chosen from foreign vendors. This in itself can be a text book example of how *censored*ed up things are & how deep the rot has set in.

DRDO develops a weapon which has shortcomings. If that's bad enough the OFB production standards & QC are pathetic. While DRDO modifies the design to rectify all shortcomings the abysmal production standards of the OFB derails all the good work done by the DRDO.

Now whom would you blame for this fiasco ? Quite obviously OFB & MoD for shoving such poor quality stuff down the IA's throat.

Now what if I told you these OFB units have seen little to no modernization whatsoever since Independence ? Prior to their corporatisation they were an extension of a government department expected to work on a no profit no loss basis with zero administrative & financial autonomy.

Result - all these years they functioned as mfg units in socialist countries did with no modernization , intensive manpower recruitment usually hereditary to make up for lack of automation etc . All this in the 21st century.

I've literally seen videos of an older vintage ( say 12-15 yrs old ) nearly a decade ago of workers filling in gun powder in cartridges thru a funnel. I couldn't believe my eyes.

I've written about this many a times in the past. Things were that pathetic. Can't locate the video else I'd have posted it here & contrasted it with a recent coporate film about an identical plant of Adani into mfg of rifle ammo.

It took a Modi to break the stranglehold of the unions & the babooos to deliver & he's done so in half measures. We have corporatisation but I'm not sure about modernization or automation.

Now you're swinging to the other end of the spectrum where SQRs will be written in keeping with the capabilities & capacities of these pvt entities.

Before you jump up & claim it's not possible , there are plenty of examples in the west of such collusion at various levels from the military to the bureaucracy to the legislative bodies with the MIC.

You can practically write multiple books on it in the US based on their history of the MIC. And this is a country which at least has some accountability even if that system is breaking down. Spare a thought for what it will be out here.

For example, the IA selected Igla-S under the VSHORADS tender, even though Russia had the latest gen Verba MANPADS available for export.

How long did the procurement take ? You find the answer for that one & you'd know why the IA chose the way they did.

The long awaited order for 100 LUH has still not been signed, and there exists a total requirement for some 400 light helos. It seems likely that the forces will split the purchase between HAL and Airbus/Leonardo. There is a reason why these companies are suddenly setting up shop in India.

As I wrote before there's a sustained attempt to sabotage the only product line which has been somewhat of a success in the Indian aerospace ecosystem.

Extrapolating from how OFB was treated by MoD / GoI to how HAL was & is run & you'd know why this is on both the MoD & GoI ! Let's wait to see what the BCG has to recommend about how HAL is run.

Then again why would one choose a foreign consultancy to appraise the crown jewel in your defence mfg set up & suggest changes especially if they also happen to have foreign defence OEMs as their clientele who are competitors to HAL is a mystery in itself . Or maybe not.

Imo, if we are going to purchase a foriegn copter anyway, we'd have been better off buying design/IP rights rather than just mfg/assembly. Perhaps Panther/AS365 would've been a better choice.

Why not go with desi stuff if the gap between it & its foreign counterpart isn't much ?!

There are exceptions. The ALH Dhruv design is actually derived from the MBB Kawasaki BK-117, developed in US-allied West Germany back in the 1980s.

IIRC MBB were only the consultants for the project. While there may have been similarities with the MBB product , I don't think it's to the extent you're suggesting it is.

I remember on P D F the common trope against the LCA around 15 years ago was that it was a copy of the Mirage 2000 just coz of the Delta wing design & Dassault Aviation being the consultant to ADA early in the program.

Any OEM would lobby their govt to secure an export order based on revenue potential. Western companies were no exception. .

Post the Tiananmen Massacre sanctions, China couldn't possibly have continued building Z-9/11 (Fennec/Panther) choppers under license without discreet support from France.

 

[Speedster1]

Happening for years now ? Which other substantial examples can you think apart from the Predator drones ? Besides this too is a recent development .

Mainly SAMs. Starting from the Pechora which were also fitted to the INs Rajput DDGs.

The tradition continues to this day with the MRSAM and soon Kusha.

SDRs, EW (Sangraha, Samyukta, Samudrika, Himshakti) are some of the other major triservice progs.

DRDO develops a weapon which has shortcomings. If that's bad enough the OFB production standards & QC are pathetic. While DRDO modifies the design to rectify all shortcomings the abysmal production standards of the OFB derails all the good work done by the DRDO.

Now whom would you blame for this fiasco ? Quite obviously OFB & MoD for shoving such poor quality stuff down the IA's throat.

The biggest casualty of OFBs incompetence was INSAS, imo. That set off the whole chain of events that culminated in the purchase of AK-203 + SiG- 716.

For the longest time, the IA brass couldn't decide between 5.56mm vs 7.62mm caliber for its next gen weapon. It's more of a doctrinal issue than SQR, per se.

It took a Modi to break the stranglehold of the unions & the babooos to deliver & he's done so in half measures. We have corporatisation but I'm not sure about modernization or automation.

Now you're swinging to the other end of the spectrum where SQRs will be written in keeping with the capabilities & capacities of these pvt entities.

Political interference in DPSU appointments and pandering to trade unions were key factors that kept the former OFB units complacent.

The GoI had stopped short of privatizing them because of vote bank considerations. But corporatization seems to have had its effect.

How long did the procurement take ? You find the answer for that one & you'd know why the IA chose the way they did.

The VSHORADS program was stalled because of allegations of favoritism/exceptions granted to Russia vs Western products like Mistral and RBS-70, iirc.

Imo, the IA has always had a preference for true manpads (shoulder fired) vs the tripod mounted kind like Mistral/RBS-70. It likely wanted to avoid a single vendor situation with the Russians.

IIRC MBB were only the consultants for the project. While there may have been similarities with the MBB product , I don't think it's to the extent you're suggesting it is.

MBB was closely involved in the design of both airframe and dynamic components. This was our first attempt at developing a helo, after all.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Mainly SAMs. Starting from the Pechora which were also fitted to the INs Rajput DDGs.

Where is the evidence the Armed Forces got together to draft out a common SQR , present it to the MoD who then took it up for negotiations with the Russians ? IIRC these were procured way back in the 1970s & 80s .

Besides if this was a joint initiative why wasn't it extended to other domains ?

The tradition continues to this day with the MRSAM and soon Kusha.

IIRC the MRSAM was the brainchild of the DRDO with Israel. It was first deployed by the IN. I've yet to see reports suggesting the armed forces moved jointly to synergise their requirements in this particular case.

SDRs, EW (Sangraha, Samyukta, Samudrika, Himshakti) are some of the other major triservice progs.

Once again this is a recent development.

The biggest casualty of OFBs incompetence was INSAS, imo. That set off the whole chain of events that culminated in the purchase of AK-203 + SiG- 716.

That's what I was referring to without naming it.

For the longest time, the IA brass couldn't decide between 5.56mm vs 7.62mm caliber for its next gen weapon. It's more of a doctrinal issue than SQR, per se.

What doctrinal issue can there be in this case ? Show me one professional army which deploys a multi calibre rifle in a war . Can you even imagine the logistical nightmare that would ensue as a result of this stupid move ?

An infantry soldier will be expected to carry 3 barrels & 3 different sets of magazines.

Political interference in DPSU appointments and pandering to trade unions were key factors that kept the former OFB units complacent.

The GoI had stopped short of privatizing them because of vote bank considerations. But corporatization seems to have had its effect.

It's a case of well begun is half done. Those units can be privatised in stages without being sold off to the pvt sector. All it requires is a more professional management with dilution in government holdings.

Free them from the bureaucracy , give them time ,hand hold them for some of it , set targets , empower them & hold them accountable. Some may not make it but the vast majority would.

The VSHORADS program was stalled because of allegations of favoritism/exceptions granted to Russia vs Western products like Mistral and RBS-70, iirc.

Imo, the IA has always had a preference for true manpads (shoulder fired) vs the tripod mounted kind like Mistral/RBS-70. It likely wanted to avoid a single vendor situation with the Russians.

Yes. Bottom line the Verba couldn't be procured coz of internal issues. Hence the RFI / RFP for the Igla couldn't be withdrawn as that would mean the entire process begins from scratch. That would be even more time consuming. Hence the decision to proceed with the Igla.

MBB was closely involved in the design of both airframe and dynamic components. This was our first attempt at developing a helo, after all.

Yup . AI seems to confirm it.

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2019404894927544657

https://twitter.com/x/status/2019468016426401893

 

[Speedster1]

Where is the evidence the Armed Forces got together to draft out a common SQR , present it to the MoD who then took it up for negotiations with the Russians ? IIRC these were procured way back in the 1970s & 80s .

It couldn't have been a mere coincidence, imo. There must have been some inter-service dialogue (if not coordination) considering both the IAF and IA operate Osa/Gecko SAM while the IAF and IN chose to induct Pechora/Goa.

It could be that those were simply the best PDMS available to us at the time.

IIRC the MRSAM was the brainchild of the DRDO with Israel. It was first deployed by the IN. I've yet to see reports suggesting the armed forces moved jointly to synergise their requirements in this particular case

It may not have been planned as a joint acquisition. But the fact remains that orders from the IAF and IA made the license production of B8 at BDL viable. I see a MoD hand in this.

Iirc, the IA had earlier been considering the Russian Buk for its MRSAM needs.

What doctrinal issue can there be in this case ? Show me one professional army which deploys a multi calibre rifle in a war . Can you even imagine the logistical nightmare that would ensue as a result of this stupid move ?

An infantry soldier will be expected to carry 3 barrels & 3 different sets of magazines.

Some DG level officers reportedlu favored the heavier 7.62mm round vs the lighter 5.56mm for its 'stopping power' vs terrorists.

They ultimately ditched 5.56mm completely but bought 2 AR of 7.62mm because of cost reasons, logistics burden notwithstanding.

Yes. Bottom line the Verba couldn't be procured coz of internal issues. Hence the RFI / RFP for the Igla couldn't be withdrawn as that would mean the entire process begins from scratch. That would be even more time consuming. Hence the decision to proceed with the Igla.

The VSHORADs tender was a complete clusterfuck with multiple systems evaluated over several years and none being bought.

IIrc, Igla-S was eventually acquired as EP w/license production at Adani. Not too long ago, the IA also signed up for the Thales LMM without a field trial. So much for process.