Adani - Leonardo collaboration on helicopter ecosystem in India

[_Anonymous_]

Afaik, the primary difference between land-based and shipborne helos is in the transmission, rotor and gearbox. Gearboxes, in particular, need more ruggedization in naval helos as they operate at mtow more often and in marine environments.

Case in point: Bell AH-1s were flown by both the USMC and the US Army before the latter switched to the Apache.

No idea. You seem to be better informed though the Apaches are a different class of hptrs altogether as compared to the Huey Cobras.

My point is that MoD/IDS could have asked the 3 services to rationalize their requirements and prepare a joint SQR. But its too late now.

The concept of synergy is just not there even today what to speak of a few years ago.

The armed forces couldn't care less about industrial/ToT issues. It is upto GoI/MoD to negotiate effectively with FOEM on these matters.

True. But the same armed forces will then have to make do with obsolete technology if they opt for what Leonardo & Airbus is dishing out.

Don't be surprised if you don't hear a peep out of them as compared to what you're hearing from them about HAL.

Imo, they could've followed the same approach as the Koreans who wisely chose an out of production design - Dauphin/AS365 - as the base for their new LAH project.

They straight up bought out the IP/design rights and are now free to make as many variants as they need.

Otoh, H125 is still in production at Airbus France and other JVs worldwide. (So no possibility of IP transfer) Likewise, with A109.

We've already covered plenty of ground as far as hptrs go. What you're suggesting would've been the way out in the late 90s or early 2000s. Not now.

Besides RoK has the same advantage Turkey enjoys. They're part of the western defence ecosystem. We aren't. We'd never be offered those terms then. Today we don't need them .

GoI is trying to replicate the 1990s outsourcing model of the service sector in the mfg sector. All they seem to be interested in is job creation in general and FDI in defence.

Yes. But mfg in other Industries isn't the same as mfg for defence. Even otherwise mfg in non defence sectors are categorised as strategic & non strategic.

Defence mfg is all strategic. You can't implement policies such as you are for consume electronics in defence electronics.

GoI / MoD are committing a grave error. Our hptr industry is a rare success story on the indigenous aerospace landscape . And now we're self sabotaging that instead of cultivating it.

 

[Shan]

Defence mfg is all strategic. You can't implement policies such as you are for consume electronics in defence electronics.

GoI / MoD are committing a grave error. Our hptr industry is a rare success story on the indigenous aerospace landscape . And now we're self sabotaging that instead of cultivating it.

Many folks currently discussing the new JVs and the setting up of Indian subsidiaries fail to understand this aspect. I am not against procurement from foreign OEMs. However, there needs to be a robust domestic setup that can be relied upon. The GoI is treating certain critical verticals within the defence sector as investment/employment opportunities.

 

[BoredBear]

Tbh I think people are unnecessarily worried. There will be always some companies that will do just assembly in early days. HAL itself started with just doing assemblies. I don't think government is treating these as just employment generation scheme. People simply can't seem to grasp that our private aerospace industry is too young to take huge risks. They have to earn money somehow. Unlike PSUs they don't have a safety net to back them up if they go full on R&D mode. It's gonna be a gradual process. Some companies will still only do screwdivergiri while some others slowly will start to do their own R&D as they mature as company. L&T is a great example of that. All of what we are seeing is natural for a nascent defence industry.

 

[BoredBear]

Many folks currently discussing the new JVs and the setting up of Indian subsidiaries fail to understand this aspect. I am not against procurement from foreign OEMs. However, there needs to be a robust domestic setup that can be relied upon. The GoI is treating certain critical verticals within the defence sector as investment/employment opportunities.

And that is what GoI is trying build. HAL is not the robust domestic reliable entity. It never was and never will be. We need competition in the market one way or another. Ofc, we can criticise those companies for lack of innovation, shortcuts, etc. But, at of the day those do bring competition which in turns help the overall aerospace industry. I think everyone is judging the endeavour of GoI too early in similar vein to judging a book by just the cover. Especially when the book hasn't been fully written yet. Let's wait and watch. Everyone quickly jumps to criticise Adani or Tata for screwdivergiri but why such criticism is not pointed at HAL when they themselves do it? Like what HAL is doing with the Russian, is that not screwdivergiri?

 

[Shan]

Tbh I think people are unnecessarily worried. There will be always some companies that will do just assembly in early days. HAL itself started with just doing assemblies. I don't think government is treating these as just employment generation scheme. People simply can't seem to grasp that our private aerospace industry is too young to take huge risks. They have to earn money somehow. Unlike PSUs they don't have a safety net to back them up if they go full on R&D mode. It's gonna be a gradual process. Some companies will still only do screwdivergiri while some others slowly will start to do their own R&D as they mature as company. L&T is a great example of that. All of what we are seeing is natural for a nascent defence industry.

HAL should not be treated as the benchmark. It is a monopoly. A sane economy and govt. should not have treated the aerospace sector as it has been treated by GoI. I understand the aspect that you're talking about. However, let's see how many of these companies can transition to the model that you speak about remains to be seen. Most are just starting out. The risks could have been taken earlier as well. Please have a look at how the Chinese have transitioned. There exists some overlap there and their setup (political and manufac.) is completely different from ours. However, there are many lessons to be learnt from the development over the past decade or two.

 

[BoredBear]

HAL should not be treated as the benchmark. It is a monopoly. A sane economy and govt. should not have treated the aerospace sector as it has been treated by GoI. I understand the aspect that you're talking about. However, let's see how many of these companies can transition to the model that you speak about remains to be seen. Most are just starting out. The risks could have been taken earlier as well. Please have a look at how the Chinese have transitioned. There exists some overlap there and their setup (political and manufac.) is completely different from ours. However, there are many lessons to be learnt from the development over the past decade or two.

We can't replicate their model 1:1 here unfortunately. The only thing from there you can learn is that "state incentivisation". Which I think the GoI is doing a decent job. Yeah, it isn't perfect, there is a lot of think we can criticise. But, we have to understand that Indian private defence industry was virtually non-existent a decade back. So, they had very limited choices to begin with. They are victim of their own making.

 

[Shan]

We can't replicate their model 1:1 here unfortunately. The only thing from there you can learn is that "state incentivisation". Which I think the GoI is doing a decent job. Yeah, it isn't perfect, there is a lot of think we can criticise. But, we have to understand that Indian private defence industry was virtually non-existent a decade back.

And whose fault is that Panda? Also, why should I help you build a domestic industry? How many of these domestic companies are truly capable of absorbing what the foreign OEMs are imparting? The tendency to R&D is driven by a lot of factors a multitude of JVs are not critical/absolute necessity to ensure that such things develop in the right direction. India cannot even retain talent when it comes to commercial aerospace.

Apples to Oranges here: How many of your electronic/IT companies exist that can compete on a global scale when it comes to CS/Microchip essentials? They've been doing things for a while.

 

[BoredBear]

And whose fault is that Panda? Also, why should I help you build a domestic industry? How many of these domestic companies are truly capable of absorbing what the foreign OEMs are imparting? The tendency to R&D is driven by a lot of factors JVs are not necessary to ensure that such things develop in the right direction. India cannot even retain talent when it comes to commercial aerospace.

Apples to Oranges here: How many of your electronic/IT companies exist that can compete on a global scale when it comes to CS/Microchip essentials? They've been doing things for a while.

This is their own making previous and current government both are responsible for this respectively to some extent. However, i don't understand what better should the government have done here then? What do you think they should have done? Create 4 or 5 more PSUs? They are already running the IDDM program. It does provide platform for private companies to work with our research institutes. Now is it perfect? Obviously not. There are also some government programs for collaboration between private companies and academia. Issue has always been how these programmes have been implemented.

For IT sector there are companies like Zoho & Oodoo. They are small but they do compete globally. I have no idea about electronics sector.

 

[Aniruddha]

And that is what GoI is trying build. HAL is not the robust domestic reliable entity. It never was and never will be. We need competition in the market one way or another. Ofc, we can criticise those companies for lack of innovation, shortcuts, etc. But, at of the day those do bring competition which in turns help the overall aerospace industry. I think everyone is judging the endeavour of GoI too early in similar vein to judging a book by just the cover. Especially when the book hasn't been fully written yet. Let's wait and watch. Everyone quickly jumps to criticise Adani or Tata for screwdivergiri but why such criticism is not pointed at HAL when they themselves do it? Like what HAL is doing with the Russian, is that not screwdivergiri?

HAL is not a reliable domestic entity, sure agreed.
HAL is doing screwdrivergiri, maybe in the past, but not now, do recall the last 140 odd Su30 MKI prior to the assembly line closure were manufactured from the raw material stage, even though the raw material being imported, this does not count to or CKD assembly.
HAL along with other pvt industries & DRDO did manage localise to a significant extent, so much so that their missions computers were being exported to equip Russian Su30SM, Malaysian Su30MKM.

The discourse here is about the Rotary wing division, so this falls flat and sounds like whataboutism.

HAL has some fine offerings in the form of ALH Dhruv, Dhruv-NG, LUH, LCH, ALH-WSI which are specifically built keeping Indian conditions in mind.

The Leonardo AW109 TrekkerM that Adani is screw has a max service ceiling of 19,000ft, and at that sort of altitude the payload it can carry is miniscule at best, now compare that HAL LUH which demonstrated that it's capable of carrying 500kg payloads in a high altitude environment (75kg payload at max service ceiling).

So if these offerings are going to be a hinderance in the successful induction of local options that are a result of a mature rotary wing ecosystem, then that's a problem and needs to be called out.

 

[Shan]

Then what should the government have done here then? What do you think they should have done? Create 4 or 5 more PSUs?

When it came to power 10 years ago it could have had a clear policy towards R&D development and could have rolled out a policy that advocated for divestment from DPSUs that are either a monopoly or a duopoly. By now they could have started off loading sub-system manufacturing at a larger scale. Even now there are startups working on portfolios of LMs that are facing funding crunches. EP continues unabashed. Look at BF or KSL, they've put their efforts into developing some potent land systems. How have their products fared? 7 years of trials and few hundred units ordered.

HAL is not a reliable domestic entity, sure agreed.
HAL is doing screwdrivergiri, maybe in the past, but not now, do recall the last 140 odd Su30 MKI prior to the assembly line closure were manufactured from the raw material stage, even though the raw material being imported, this does not count to or CKD assembly.
HAL along with other pvt industries & DRDO did manage localise to a significant extent, so much so that their missions computers were being exported to equip Russian Su30SM, Malaysian Su30MKM.

The discourse here is about the Rotary wing division, so this falls flat and sounds like whataboutism.

HAL has some fine offerings in the form of ALH Dhruv, Dhruv-NG, LUH, LCH, ALH-WSI which are specifically built keeping Indian conditions in mind.

The Leonardo AW109 TrekkerM that Adani is screw has a max service ceiling of 19,000ft, and at that sort of altitude the payload it can carry is miniscule at best, now compare that HAL LUH which demonstrated that it's capable of carrying 500kg payloads in a high altitude environment (75kg payload at max service ceiling).

So if these offerings are going to be a hinderance in the successful induction of local options that are a result of a mature rotary wing ecosystem, then that's a problem and needs to be called out.

Look at what they are offering for the JV. Some def. X account was stating that this will change the "hptr industry" in India.

 

[BoredBear]

When it came to power 10 years ago it could have had a clear policy towards R&D development and could have rolled out a policy that advocated for divestment from DPSUs that are either a monopoly or a duopoly. By now they could have started off loading sub-system manufacturing at a larger scale. Even now there are startups working on portfolios of LMs that are facing funding crunches. EP continues unabashed. Look at BF or KSL, they've put their efforts into developing some potent land systems. How have their products fared? 7 years of trials and few hundred units ordered.

I won't go into what could have been done. What you are saying is right. But I disagree with you on the trial part here. Do you think we should accept anything without any trial? I do agree there should have been more orders. There has been a lengthy argument on this very forum wrt to those platforms and their technical shortcomings in the past which lead to those lengthy trials. I'm not defending the government here, the situation they are in is their own making. But, I'm saying this is a fair bet in this kind of situation. Also, the government is supporting BF/KSL for exporting their products when our own armed forces don't procure it.

 

[Shan]

I won't go into what could have been done. What you are saying is right. But I disagree with you on the trial part here. Do you think we should accept anything without any trial? I do agree there should have been more orders. There has been a lengthy argument on this very forum wrt to those platforms and their technical shortcomings in the past which lead to those lengthy trials.

There have also been discussions that Indian forces hold a certain level of bias towards foreign OEMs due to unknown reasons.

 

[Aniruddha]

Look at what they are offering for the JV. Some def. X account was stating that this will change the "hptr industry" in India.

What you see in promotional/marketing material and what actually gets delivered, there is always a sea of difference between both.

 

[BoredBear]

There have also been discussions that Indian forces hold a certain level of bias towards foreign OEMs due to unknown reasons.

Yes that is true most of us agree on that. But my point is the government is supporting those companies through by helping them get export orders. One can look at that in a negative way as well as more positive way too. As long as those exports keep them alive, I am fine with that. We can criticise that as bare minimum effort. But, that is how our system works unfortunately. Armed forces are free to evaluate platforms on their own. Government can't just push everything down their throat all the time. Tejas and Arjun were forced down, you know how they act about that. Some IAF people still criticise Tejas for its limitations. And many of those critisism are valid.

 

[Speedster1]

No idea. You seem to be better informed though the Apaches are a different class of hptrs altogether as compared to the Huey Cobras.

I was referring to your point about a hypothetical naval LCH and how it would require a whole different airframe/version.

The concept of synergy is just not there even today what to speak of a few years ago.

Tri-service acquisitions have been happening for years now. A good example is the IN taking the lead in coordinating the purchase of MQ-9Bs. In the case of the RSH prog, it was the IAF. The govt has been asking the services to prioritize acquisitions and even planning via HQ IDS (LTIPP et all). Though that hasn't quite stopped one or the other service from replicating the same capability in use with another service at exorbitant cost (Army - Apache)

True. But the same armed forces will then have to make do with obsolete technology if they opt for what Leonardo & Airbus is dishing out.

As long as a weapons system meets the respective SQRs, the forces will buy even equipment nearing obsolescence or even replacement in their home countries. For example, the IA selected Igla-S under the VSHORADS tender, even though Russia had the latest gen Verba MANPADS available for export.

We've already covered plenty of ground as far as hptrs go. What you're suggesting would've been the way out in the late 90s or early 2000s. Not now.

The long awaited order for 100 LUH has still not been signed, and there exists a total requirement for some 400 light helos. It seems likely that the forces will split the purchase between HAL and Airbus/Leonardo. There is a reason why these companies are suddenly setting up shop in India.

Imo, if we are going to purchase a foriegn copter anyway, we'd have been better off buying design/IP rights rather than just mfg/assembly. Perhaps Panther/AS365 would've been a better choice.

Besides RoK has the same advantage Turkey enjoys. They're part of the western defence ecosystem. We aren't. We'd never be offered those terms then. Today we don't need them .

There are exceptions. The ALH Dhruv design is actually derived from the MBB Kawasaki BK-117, developed in US-allied West Germany back in the 1980s. Any OEM would lobby their govt to secure an export order based on revenue potential. Western companies were no exception.

Post the Tiananmen Massacre sanctions, China couldn't possibly have continued building Z-9/11 (Fennec/Panther) choppers under license without discreet support from France.

 

[Shan]

Yes that is true most of us agree on that. But my point is the government is supporting those companies through by helping them get export orders. One can look at that in a negative way as well as more positive way too. As long as those exports keep them alive, I am fine with that.

If you do not use your own systems in local conflicts/battles, how will they tune version 2.0 to suit your needs better? Right from the weather to the man power characteristics, each of the aspects allows the OEM to help advance the product.

 

[BoredBear]

If you do not use your own systems in local conflicts/battles, how will they tune version 2.0 to suit your needs better? Right from the weather to the man power characteristics, each of the aspects allows the OEM to help advance the product.

Sadly that's how our current setup works. They seriously need to improve the development & procurement process. But the problem will still be there cuz the government can't just force the forces to buy things.

Anyways one of the solution to the problem we are discussing on this thread could be solved by going with an IDDM approach with a private company. Perhaps, the government could offload some of the work to private sector as you said. I think nobody would have minded if Adani was manufacturing some Helicopter designed by DRDO. If Zorawar can exist then a combat helicopter designed by DRDO in collaboration with a private company can too. Although, we haven't seen any interest from GoI for that.

 

[Sathya]

If only HAL Dhruv and LUH had no issues, no accidents and no grounding ..
Everyone would have been against foreign hptrs ..
Add to that failure of full fledged naval version development was dissected in social media.

HAL have a opportunity to prove it's worth in helicopter segment.
They can constantly upgrade and readily meet whatever the force ask for customisation. which will be cost prohibitve with Foreign OEM .

 

[Shan]

If only HAL Dhruv and LUH had no issues, no accidents and no grounding ..
Everyone would have been against foreign hptrs ..
Add to that failure of full fledged naval version development was dissected in social media.

HAL have a opportunity to prove it's worth in helicopter segment.
They can constantly upgrade and readily meet whatever the force ask for customisation. which will be cost prohibitve with Foreign OEM .

Indeed. Improvement in various aspects is the way forward. Foreign OEMs also undergo their own set of trials and issues when it comes to their offerings. The key lies with improvement.

Helicopter manufacturer Leonardo could have averted Leicester City Football Club helicopter disaster, says concerning air safety report

The Air Accident Investigation Branch (AAIB) published its comprehensive report into the helicopter crash at Leicester City Football Club.

www.stewartslaw.com

 

[BoredBear]

If only HAL Dhruv and LUH had no issues, no accidents and no grounding ..
Everyone would have been against foreign hptrs ..
Add to that failure of full fledged naval version development was dissected in social media.

HAL have a opportunity to prove it's worth in helicopter segment.
They can constantly upgrade and readily meet whatever the force ask for customisation. which will be cost prohibitve with Foreign OEM .

Aside from genuine issues, HAL has horrible PR management. They handled those incidents with Dhruv and LUH so badly. Plus their lackadaisical attitude infront of camera with big big promises. All of that just makes them look unreliable even though one could argue all of that was just part of the process. They seriously need to fix their PR. But, perhaps the sarkari lackadaisical attitude of their makes them overconfident. Afterall, they are a monopoly.