ADA AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
1,353
1,150
Bangalore
Start of FSED to first flight is 6 years. ADA is hoping to start in 2019 and manage first flight by 2025.

Then we have 9 years of flight testing. So 2034 for IOC. Add a few years for delays.
Absolutely right. First flight won't be before 2025 and a bare minimum 10 years or 2035 for serial production if every thing goes right. Any delay and it will be repeat of LCA saga. This is the reality and any fanboyism won't work.

And it will be same situation like LCA world would be moving to 5.5 & 6th generation manned/unmanned fighters and IAF will find it not enough again. Unfortunately we are into catch up game.

People are also optimistic of LCA mk2 but it won't come before 2027 and I don't know what purpose it will solve when world will be completely in cusp of 5th and 5.5 generation fighters.
 

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
According to the design schedule of Su57, Su57 completed its preliminary design review in 2007 and completed its first flight in 2010. So, going by that standards, AMCA must complete first flight by 2020 itself. First flight doesn't include radars, EW or any accessories. So, airframe, engine (F414) and avionics are all that will be needed. Basically first light is a test of aerodynamic nature of the airframe and excludes all other subsystems.

I simply can't understand why anyone would claim that making airframe will take till 2025! What exactly is the problem here? Is it bad mouthing for the sake of bad mouthing or is there any reality behind it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shekhar Singh

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
Absolutely right. First flight won't be before 2025 and a bare minimum 10 years or 2035 for serial production if every thing goes right. Any delay and it will be repeat of LCA saga. This is the reality and any fanboyism won't work.

And it will be same situation like LCA world would be moving to 5.5 & 6th generation manned/unmanned fighters and IAF will find it not enough again. Unfortunately we are into catch up game.

People are also optimistic of LCA mk2 but it won't come before 2027 and I don't know what purpose it will solve when world will be completely in cusp of 5th and 5.5 generation fighters.
LCA will have its own niche use that other jets won't do. So it's relevant for another 30 years in the IAF.

As for 6th gen tech, we will be developing that stuff as well. For example, AMCA will be a 5++ gen aircraft. We can even start a 6th gen tech by 2025-30 to match the other global competitors. It's about money mostly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Angel Eyes

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
According to the design schedule of Su57, Su57 completed its preliminary design review in 2007 and completed its first flight in 2010. So, going by that standards, AMCA must complete first flight by 2020 itself. First flight doesn't include radars, EW or any accessories. So, airframe, engine (F414) and avionics are all that will be needed. Basically first light is a test of aerodynamic nature of the airframe and excludes all other subsystems.

I simply can't understand why anyone would claim that making airframe will take till 2025! What exactly is the problem here? Is it bad mouthing for the sake of bad mouthing or is there any reality behind it?
PAK FA's FSED started in 2004 and first flight happened in 2010.
 

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
Can someone please tell me about 6th generation plane technology? Please give a comparison with F22 (not F35 as it is a bad plane with poor maneuverability). In what way will a 6th generation plane be better than 5th generation one?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Shekhar Singh

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
PAK FA's FSED started in 2004 and first flight happened in 2010.
PAK-FA was sanctioned in 2003.

The project of AMCA had started from 2011 and the conceptual design phase went till 2014 and from 2014 the Preliminary Design review (or according to your definition, FSED) began and was completed in 2017. Then Detailed Design Review (according to your terminology, Engineering Technology & Manufacturing Development (ETMD)) is set to start. The years from 2014 have seen serious work in both AMCA and Tejas. You are simply discounting 4 years of work and assuming that AMCA started just now with full swing.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
PAK-FA was sanctioned in 2003.

The project of AMCA had started from 2011 and the conceptual design phase went till 2014 and from 2014 the Preliminary Design review (or according to your definition, FSED) began and was completed in 2017. Then Detailed Design Review (according to your terminology, Engineering Technology & Manufacturing Development (ETMD)) is set to start. The years from 2014 have seen serious work in both AMCA and Tejas. You are simply discounting 4 years of work and assuming that AMCA started just now with full swing.
The Russians started the construction of the first PAK FA in 2004. We are yet to start construction of our first AMCA, that's hopefully in 2019, but very likely to be missed.

By our standards, we have two phases in the R&D phase, FSED Phase I and FSED Phase II. In FSED Phase I, we will have 2 TDs and 2 PVs. In Phase II, we get a few more prototypes, and then 8 to 12 LSPs.

And unlike PAK FA and a lot of other programs, we are yet to choose our main engines for the AMCA. Without that, nothing's going to happen.

2025 is only a tentative date, but it can only be later than that, not before.

AERO INDIA: New Delhi continues work on stealthy AMCA
Balaji says that once the engine is determined, it will take three or four more years to develop the aircraft.

Prior to the show, Balaji told FlightGlobal that a first flight for the AMCA is planned for 2025.
 

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
The Russians started the construction of the first PAK FA in 2004. We are yet to start construction of our first AMCA, that's hopefully in 2019, but very likely to be missed.

By our standards, we have two phases in the R&D phase, FSED Phase I and FSED Phase II. In FSED Phase I, we will have 2 TDs and 2 PVs. In Phase II, we get a few more prototypes, and then 8 to 12 LSPs.

And unlike PAK FA and a lot of other programs, we are yet to choose our main engines for the AMCA. Without that, nothing's going to happen.

2025 is only a tentative date, but it can only be later than that, not before.

AERO INDIA: New Delhi continues work on stealthy AMCA
Balaji says that once the engine is determined, it will take three or four more years to develop the aircraft.

Prior to the show, Balaji told FlightGlobal that a first flight for the AMCA is planned for 2025.
Tejas had its first flight in 2001 when nothing was developed properly. Does this mean something about AMCA first flight too? Unless ADA is filled with worst quality people, I don't see how a prototype first flight should take too long that too when design has already been finalised already.

Give me a source that says PAKFA started construction in 2004? Wiki says that the construction started in 2007. If you have a source that says that the prototype construction started in 2004 but took 6 years to complete, please state so.

Engine finalisation is indeed a problem. but, an intermediate engine can be chosen as an adhoc measure with certain adjustments in the fuselage to accomodate engines of different dimensions. If the dimensions are smaller than anticipated, the remaining area can store fuel. Otherwise, how was the full scale mode testing completed? if the design is not yet started due to lack of engine, that would not be the case.

In initial stages, the external design is finalised while internal design is kept floating to accommodate new features
 
Last edited:

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
8,116
5,482
India
Tejas had its first flight in 2001 when nothing was developed properly. Does this mean something about AMCA first flight too? Unless ADA is filled with worst quality people, I don't see how a prototype first flight should take too long that too when design has already been finalised already.

Give me a source that says PAKFA started construction in 2004? Wiki says that the construction started in 2007. If you have a source that says that the prototype construction started in 2004 but took 6 years to complete, please state so.

Engine finalisation is indeed a problem. but, an intermediate engine can be chosen as an adhoc measure with certain adjustments in the fuselage to accomodate engines of different dimensions. If the dimensions are smaller than anticipated, the remaining area can store fuel. Otherwise, how was the full scale mode testing completed? if the design is not yet started due to lack of engine, that would not be the case.

In initial stages, the external design is finalised while internal design is kept floating to accommodate new features
Google all the details yourself.

Hell, even the AMCA's PSQR has not been finalized yet. Anybody with actual knowledge in this would actually not believe the 2025 date also.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Aditya