Brexit and Future of UK : Discussions

[Volcano]

It isn't the largest genocide, or even close. Even if every single person in North America and Australia pre-British settlement was killed, which they weren't, it still wouldn't even come close to Hitler, Mao or Stalin. There simply weren't enough people living there for it to be possible.

Show me evidence of Jewish massacres of Germans like those below.
List of Indian massacres - Wikipedia

The total number of native Americans in north America is believed to be around 112 million prior to the British invasion according to the study conducted by William M. Denevan , Carl O. Sauer Professor of Geography and Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin–Madison


The British invaders managed to wipe them out to a couple of millions through brutal conquest and genocide, making it one of the largest genocides in human history. Hitler should be disappointed with his achievements, compared the British invaders and their genocides of continental scale.

 

[Volcano]

It isn't the largest genocide, or even close. Even if every single person in North America and Australia pre-British settlement was killed, which they weren't, it still wouldn't even come close to Hitler, Mao or Stalin. There simply weren't enough people living there for it to be possible.

Show me evidence of Jewish massacres of Germans like those below.
List of Indian massacres - Wikipedia

This is where your argument falls down, you don't understand the nature of a genocide and have no grasp on the figures. A poor education system is to blame.

Given that one of those continents later landed on the moon, I would argue that humanity is better off for it overall. And please tell me how WWII ends if it weren't for British colonisation and the creation of the US. The answer is that it ends with Hitler occupying Europe and Japan occupying Asia, including India. So despite your qualms with the BE and your worship of Bose, the truth of the matter is that your independence is down to the former not the latter ironically.

Our independence is down to the later to every last bit. Thank god for the Germans for invading the British and destroying it. The Germans, Japanese, Chandra Bose etc have contributed heavily for the weakening of British criminal empire which ended for good. Before them, there was colonialism, after them, there isn't

 

[Guynextdoor]

That's going to double transit times and costs. It would be significantly quicker to Zeebrugge if they didn't impose a harder border following a no deal Brexit, because NI is best placed geographically to ship it. But that's another £8bn, on top of the £40bn, on top of the £11bn/year. Adding up isn't it? Any word on the payment split yet? Are you going to take it from Hungary and Poland for being naughty?

 

[BMD]

Laugh, but the costs are already adding up for the EU in the case of a no deal. £40bn divorce bill - gone. £11bn/year subscription fee - gone. £8bn needed to expand Irish ports. Extra cost of transporting goods around the UK. £500bn/year of exports to the UK at risk.

 

[BMD]

Our independence is down to the later to every last bit. Thank god for the Germans for invading the British and destroying it. The Germans, Japanese, Chandra Bose etc have contributed heavily for the weakening of British criminal empire which ended for good. Before them, there was colonialism, after them, there isn't

They didn't invade Britain. This is why I say your education sucks over there.

If Bose had succeeded with his alliances you'd be speaking Japanese. If the BE had never existed you'd be speaking Japanese. The Nazis and Imperial Japan were colonial empires themselves, so how exactly can you attribute the end of colonialism to them? The end of colonialism occurred due to a consensus reached by the major western powers at the end of WWII. Note that the Soviets were still very much in favour of aggressive territorial expansion and China still is.

 

[BMD]

The total number of native Americans in north America is believed to be around 112 million prior to the British invasion according to the study conducted by William M. Denevan , Carl O. Sauer Professor of Geography and Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin–Madison


The British invaders managed to wipe them out to a couple of millions through brutal conquest and genocide, making it one of the largest genocides in human history. Hitler should be disappointed with his achievements, compared the British invaders and their genocides of continental scale.

Absolute garbage.
Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas - Wikipedia

While it is difficult to determine exactly how many Natives lived in North America before Columbus,[6] estimates range from a low of 2.1 million[7] to 7 million[8] people to a high of 18 million.[9]

No study puts the number in North America at 112 million. Only the very highest estimates put the total population, North and South at 100 million but these are extremely suspect. And the vast majority of natives in the North lived South of the current Mexican border due to the weather.

Historian David Henige has argued that many population figures are the result of arbitrary formulas selectively applied to numbers from unreliable historical sources. He believes this is a weakness unrecognized by several contributors to the field, and insists there is not sufficient evidence to produce population numbers that have any real meaning. He characterizes the modern trend of high estimates as "pseudo-scientific number-crunching." Henige does not advocate a low population estimate, but argues that the scanty and unreliable nature of the evidence renders broad estimates inevitably suspect, saying "high counters" (as he calls them) have been particularly flagrant in their misuse of sources.[14] Many population studies acknowledge the inherent difficulties in producing reliable statistics, given the scarcity of hard data.

Population history of indigenous peoples of the Americas - Wikipedia

According to Noble David Cook, a community of scholars have recently, albeit slowly, "been quietly accumulating piece by piece data on early epidemics in the Americas and their relation to subjugation of native peoples." They now believe that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the primary cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans.[25] Earlier explanations for the population decline of the American natives include the European immigrants' accounts of the brutal practices of the Spanish conquistadores, as recorded by the Spaniards themselves. This was applied through the encomienda, which was a system ostensibly set up to protect people from warring tribes as well as to teach them the Spanish language and the Catholic religion, but in practice was tantamount to serfdom and slavery.

Not much to do with British atrocities here.

The citation you give alludes to pre-Columbus population of all of the Americas (not just North) and is probably a massive overestimate at that.

UW Press - : The Native Population of the Americas in 1492: Second Revised Edition, edited by William M. Denevan, With a Foreword by W. George Lovell

William M. Denevan writes that, "The discovery of America was followed by possibly the greatest demographic disaster in the history of the world." Research by some scholars provides population estimates of the pre-contact Americas to be as high as 112 million in 1492, while others estimate the population to have been as low as eight million. In any case, the native population declined to less than six million by 1650.

He later revises this estimate.

This revised edition features a new introduction by Denevan reviewing recent literature and providing a new hemispheric estimate of 54 million, a foreword by W. George Lovell of Queen's University, and a comprehensive updating of the already extensive bibliography.

Now go look when the first Pilgrim Fathers arrived in North America.

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong? Your history lessons are a joke.

 

[BMD]

Compared to the hundreds of millions killed by British, Hitler looks like a kid.

You could have at least researched global population at the time the BE started. So according to you, we killed everybody. Where's the dip on the graph?

 

[Arvind]

He also supported the Japanese even though they were trying to invade India themselves. If Bose had actually been successful in his support, India would have regretted it. I don't see Imperial Japanese rule being much better than British or Mughal rule.

Bose supporting Japanese to invade India and let Japan colonize us? Is this your understanding of history?

The Cholas, the Guptas, the Ashokas?

Only the difference is we consider them as one of us, not the redcoats.

 

[Arvind]

The fact that you believe this is evidence of a poor education system. Hitler systematically exterminated Jews, not because they started an uprising, not because they mass-murdered nuns, not because they attacked German police, but because they were Jews. He killed 6 million of them in the space of a few years by way of gas chamber. Meanwhile India's complaint against Churchill is that 2-3 million died in the Bengal famine, which was initiated by plant disease, bad weather, the Japanese invasion of Burma, a population explosion and Indians returning en masse from Burma. Churchill could have dealt with it better perhaps, but there was a war on and he prioritised supplies to the Western Front. Meanwhile a similar number of Indians die of malnutrition every year to this day through nothing to do with Churchill, whilst India exports food and sends space vehicles to Mars in peacetime. I can't see that Churchill is any more guilty than Modi, the only difference is that Indians were stupid enough to democratically elect one of them.

The fact that you have audacity to say this is evident of a poor family and moral values you had/have.

Why should I be bother more about Hitler killing Jews for fun than my ancestors were killed for asking basic human rights and freedom?

How come British had a better reason than Hitler to kill innocent human being?

 

[BMD]

Bose supporting Japanese to invade India and let Japan colonize us? Is this your understanding of history?



Only the difference is we consider them as one of us, not the redcoats.

Why, is it your understanding of history that the Japanese weren't trying to invade India?

So, you're admitting that it's the same thing. Other countries did not see them as 'one of us' though.

 

[BMD]

The fact that you have audacity to say this is evident of a poor family and moral values you had/have.

Why should I be bother more about Hitler killing Jews for fun than my ancestors were killed for asking basic human rights and freedom?

How come British had a better reason than Hitler to kill innocent human being?

I said poor education system - nothing to do with family/moral values.

I didn't see any Jews in the Nazi military but there were lots and lots of Indians in the British military. Perhaps you can explain why.

 

[Arvind]

I said poor education system

Yes you do and I agree, after all its quite British like.

- nothing to do with family/moral values.

It does, as humanity is not taught in schools but more at home.

I didn't see any Jews in the Nazi military but there were lots and lots of Indians in the British military. Perhaps you can explain why.

Is it good reason to justify killings?

Rather it su cks even more to hire Indians to kill Indians.

 

[Arvind]

Why, is it your understanding of history that the Japanese weren't trying to invade India?

Does that equals to Bose helping Japanese to colonize India?

Japan were Invading British.

So, you're admitting that it's the same thing. Other countries did not see them as 'one of us' though.

Poor you.

Why would other countries consider them "one of us"? Its for India and Indians to feel so.

Do we need to calculate how much wealth Cholas and Ashokas plundered and took away from India? For redcoats, yes.

 

[BMD]

Yes you do and I agree, after all its quite British like.



It does, as humanity is not taught in schools but more at home.



Is it good reason to justify killings?

Rather it su cks even more to hire Indians to kill Indians.

Except inaccurate. I mean, you can check all the false claims I've disproven over the last page alone.

Ah, that explains it, you've been listening to tales that get exaggerated every time they're told.

The point is that if the British regime in colonial India had been so blindly hellbent on simply murdering all Indians (as you claim) simply because they were Indian, no Indians would have joined the British military. Most massacre deaths during the colonial period were due to warring sectarian factions among the Indians killing each other. Most Indian deaths at the hands of the British military were due to Indians serving in the British military killing their countrymen for violence that they initiated. Killing people is bad business unless there's a substantial reason, Hitler was not bothered about business or reason in his killing.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Fortunately he met a fitting end and burnt to death, as often happens to people who make a deal with the devil. You really missed an opportunity culturally here, you should celebrate his death every

Kudos @Arvind ; @Milspec

Keep wrestling with a pig & see him drag national heroes in the gutter. Keep it up guys.

 

[BMD]

Does that equals to Bose helping Japanese to colonize India?

Japan were Invading British.



Poor you.

Why would other countries consider them "one of us"? Its for India and Indians to feel so.

Do we need to calculate how much wealth Cholas and Ashokas plundered and took away from India? For redcoats, yes.

Subhas Chandra Bose - Wikipedia

"However, Bose was regarded by the Japanese as being militarily unskilled,[20][k] and his military effort was short-lived. In late 1944 and early 1945 the British Indian Army first halted and then devastatingly reversed the Japanese attack on India. "

Wow this guy was actually with the Japanese as they invaded India.

"Almost half the Japanese forces and fully half the participating INA contingent were killed.[21][l] The INA was driven down the Malay Peninsula, and surrendered with the recapture of Singapore. Bose had earlier chosen not to surrender with his forces or with the Japanese, but rather to escape to Manchuria with a view to seeking a future in the Soviet Union which he believed to be turning anti-British. He died from third degree burns received when his plane crashed in Taiwan."

Yes, but the Cholas invaded other countries.

The Cholas spent 16 centuries thieving from other countries and enslaving the peoples within South East Asia.

 

[BMD]

Kudos @Arvind ; @Milspec

Keep wrestling with a pig & see him drag national heroes in the gutter. Keep it up guys.

I really don't understand, Bose tried to invade India with the Japanese and failed, Britain succeeded, so surely the British should be your heroes?

Nobody dragged this 'hero' through the gutter. He was a traitor to India and humanity in general, he was already in the gutter, it is you who tried drag him out but merely succeeded in pulling him sideways a bit.

 

[Superkaif]

Kudos @Arvind ; @Milspec

Keep wrestling with a pig & see him drag national heroes in the gutter. Keep it up guys.

You may be offending pigs bro.....

Meanwhile back in the land of Empires......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-46861745

 

[_Anonymous_]

I really don't understand, Bose tried to invade India with the Japanese and failed, Britain succeeded, so surely the British should be your heroes?

Britain was already here in the first place. Bose tried and failed. Yet in the final analysis, succeeded.

EXCLUSIVE: Attlee told Bengal governor, Netaji, not Gandhi, got India freedom, claims book

Britain be my heroes? For winning WW-2? How desperate are you for validation out here , Paddy? For, you may despise your origins and seek validation for your own miserable existence, given your pathetic lineage, in the wholly artificial construct called the British - now under serious threat of unravelling, thanks to the deeds of the unwashed countrymen of yours, in large parts. Something, which may be making Churchill take somersaults in his grave while Bose must be having the last laugh.

Nobody dragged this 'hero' through the gutter. He was a traitor to India and humanity in general, he was already in the gutter, it is you who tried drag him out but merely succeeded in pulling him sideways a bit.

Traitor to India? How? By siding with the Germans & Japanese, against the British? Or by being in the losing side, where in by conventional wisdom History is written by the winners.

"History will be kind to me. For I intend to write it " Winston Churchill.

Even then, there are 2 versions to it. Yours & ours. And, last time I checked out, while what Bose did rankled with the Brits, they neither considered him a traitor to India nor Britain. I suspect deep down they may have admired him , for taking out a leaf from their own playbook & doing a "Brit" on the British. After all he did appear for the Indian Civil Services examination - , passed with flying colors but refused to join it. The British historians may have thought - We made a guy so good, we couldn't keep him.



Meanwhile in the history of India by a lonely old fart like you as imagined in O'Shea over several Guinness's, you continue to be the author of your own version of what Indian independence was all about.

 

[_Anonymous_]

You may be offending pigs bro.....

Meanwhile back in the land of Empires......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-46861745

Ms May has my sympathies. She is in an unenviable position. Clearly, she's trying her best. Meanwhile, the bozos and grunts in your benighted country are having a field day. When the dust settles, in a few decades from now, I wonder how many of them will be master of what they survey and take pride in what they achieved.

"Britain exiting EU, will free up 1GB of space".