Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk

[superuser726]

Didn't we select proven design to avoid delays and speedy induction..

I guess you meant to write this as a reply to my post?

Well the data I have given does not show that the HTT-40 has an "unproven" design or anything. It just indicates there are multiple places where the design could have been optimized to extract maximum performance from the plane.

It doesn't affect flight safety or training effectiveness significantly.

The reason for not going forward with these optimizations is that it would have required significant rework of the aero components.

Similar hurdles were faced with the development of the HJT-36, of course also designed by HAL ARDC. Only difference being, the issues were significant enough that they were forced to take foreign consultation and then made changes to the plane itself that were more than addon stability devices.

It would require more R&D funding to the design team for them to be able to optimize the design further.

 

[superuser726]

The Chinese acquisition of Diamond Aircrafts has proven to be very fruitful for them. Our big companies should also aim to buy R&D heavy firms like this from the West and utilize their work in our projects....

What the HTT-40 could have been...

​

Much of the design elements and work experience that was required to make the TA-20 came from the purchase of Diamond Aircraft Industries by Wanfeng Aviation


China is buying all the general aviation R&D heavy companies... Diamond, Cirrus, some Cessna plane designs, very importantly Continental Aerospace (piston engine powerhouse), Enstrom helicopters, Mooney Aircraft...

The combined R&D they just PURCHASED is more than India has done in 80yrs w.r.t civilian general aviation. And it has helped them with military use too... The TA-20 concept began civilian design but is now a very capable trainer aircraft.

 

[superuser726]

Why HAL not delivering HTT40? Its been more than a month since engines were delivered

I have the same question

 

[spice]

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF JET TRAINER AIRCRAFT FOR STAGE III (F) AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT

The complete delivery is expected to be completed within 60 months (6 years) from the effective date of contract.
The Indian Air Force is planning to procure approximately Quantity- 150 Trainer aircraft for Stage III (F) and associated equipment.

 

[superuser726]

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF JET TRAINER AIRCRAFT FOR STAGE III (F) AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT

The complete delivery is expected to be completed within 60 months (6 years) from the effective date of contract.
The Indian Air Force is planning to procure approximately Quantity- 150 Trainer aircraft for Stage III (F) and associated equipment.

It's going to be to replace the BAE Hawk

 

[Ashwin]

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF JET TRAINER AIRCRAFT FOR STAGE III (F) AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT

The complete delivery is expected to be completed within 60 months (6 years) from the effective date of contract.
The Indian Air Force is planning to procure approximately Quantity- 150 Trainer aircraft for Stage III (F) and associated equipment.

Do you have the document? is it to replace the AJT HAWK?

 

[superuser726]

Do you have the document? is it to replace the AJT HAWK?

Yes, it is to replace the older AJT Hawks

Stage III is of that class only... Aircraft included in this category are HAL Hawk MK132, Leonardo M-346, KAI T-50...

Sad the HJT-36 is only stage II

But anyways Hawk-i or T-50 is very urgent need... The Chinese cadets have been getting unsimulated BVR practice and realistic training from the 2020 batch itself, with the highly advanced JL-10s...

Since Hawk is out of production, less likely to get that

 

[Rune]

Yes, it is to replace the older AJT Hawks

Stage III is of that class only... Aircraft included in this category are HAL Hawk MK132, Leonardo M-346, KAI T-50...

Sad the HJT-36 is only stage II

But anyways Hawk-i or T-50 is very urgent need... The Chinese cadets have been getting unsimulated BVR practice and realistic training from the 2020 batch itself, with the highly advanced JL-10s...

How is 150 nos meant to replace older Hawk ?

 

[superuser726]

How is 150 nos meant to replace older Hawk ?

All Hawks will be old by the time this procurement will start delivering

 

[spice]

RFI

 

[_Anonymous_]

Yes, it is to replace the older AJT Hawks

Stage III is of that class only... Aircraft included in this category are HAL Hawk MK132, Leonardo M-346, KAI T-50...

Sad the HJT-36 is only stage II

But anyways Hawk-i or T-50 is very urgent need... The Chinese cadets have been getting unsimulated BVR practice and realistic training from the 2020 batch itself, with the highly advanced JL-10s...

Wonder why can't the LCA Mk-1a fulfill this role or alternatively what happened to the HAL HLFT - 42 ?

 

[superuser726]

Wonder why can't the LCA Mk-1a fulfill this role or alternatively what happened to the HAL HLFT - 42 ?

LCA Mk1A trainer can fully fulfill the role of an advanced trainer. In fact it would likely do it better than most of the aircraft which will be competing for this order.

But it is very heavy and bit much for the trainer category. Relatively speaking, it's expensive too. If we ignore the price part since it also has that much better

Aircraft	MTOW
Yak 130	10,290kg
Aermacchi M-346	~10,000kg
BAE Hawk Mk132	9,100kg
KAI T-50	10,722kg
LCA Mk1A Trainer	~13,500kg

I feel the most likely option we will go for is T-50

As for HLFT-42, why should it be flying by now?

It is built designed and built on HAL internal funds, we all have seen how that has been going with the HTT-40, RUAV (Taking longer development/design period than comparable aircraft like Woongbi, etc).

If it was of any importance, it should have been assigned to ADA not ARDC.

 

[_Anonymous_]

LCA Mk1A trainer can fully fulfill the role of an advanced trainer. In fact it would likely do it better than most of the aircraft which will be competing for this order.

But it is very heavy and bit much for the trainer category. Relatively speaking, it's expensive too. If we ignore the price part since it also has that much better

Aircraft	MTOW
Yak 130	10,290kg
Aermacchi M-346	~10,000kg
BAE Hawk Mk132	9,100kg
KAI T-50	10,722kg
LCA Mk1A Trainer	~13,500kg

I feel the most likely option we will go for is T-50

If we go in for the T-50 what's the message we're sending to the rest of the world when a requirement for AJT / LIFT cum LCA comes up in future considering we've the LCA & pitched it around the world till recently for the aforementioned roles?

Besides how's the BAe Hawk still in contention ? We already have them as our AJT . Are we replacing Hawks with the same version of the Hawk ? Hasn't there been any advances in AJT or LIFT technology ? Or is the Hawk timeless ?

It must be the oldest trainer in that short list with the baseline model going all the way back to the 1960s & 70s when Paddy was middle aged & being treated for an enlarged prostate . @BMD

Besides , for the life of me I don't understand what was HAL thinking when they were lost the tender for Trainers in Malaysia to the Koreans & instead of teaming up with ADA & coming up with a stripped down version of the LCA Mk-1 , they came up with the grand idea of a fully metallic HLFT -42 with an MTOW between Mk-1 & Mk-2 which is neither fish nor fowl ?

Not surprisingly we haven't heard anything about it whereas if they focused on a stripped down version of the Mk-1 it'd have been flying by now .

Here's another opportunity lost to capture the international market for such AJT / LIFT cum LCA coz there's no marketing & sales team within the "Maharatna " DPSU , something which doesn't bother HAL nor the MoD under whom they function or of course the GoI .

Had there been one they'd have scanned the world's AFs including the IAF to check when such a requirement pops up & made projections accordingly which'd justify such a project where they could've approached MoD with a proposal accordingly & I'm sure it'd be approved or they could fund such a project internally . Instead here we are .

As for HLFT-42, why should it be flying by now?

No clue . Don't even know how & why it was conceived. Probably someone in the ARDC is either a fan of the Marut or is a descendant of someone associated with that team overdosing on nostalgia.

It is built designed and built on HAL internal funds, we all have seen how that has been going with the HTT-40, RUAV (Taking longer development/design period than comparable aircraft like Woongbi, etc).

If it was of any importance, it should have been assigned to ADA not ARDC.

 

[jmaxwell_]

Couldn't ARDC consult with ADA on design? Is there some firewall between ARDC/ADA? Aren't they obligated as a publicly traded company if ARDC is struggling?

Huge market opportunity for HAL... hope HLFT-42 gets a shot.

 

[superuser726]

If we go in for the T-50 what's the message we're sending to the rest of the world when a requirement for AJT / LIFT cum LCA comes up in future considering we've the LCA & pitched it around the world till recently for the aforementioned roles?

Besides how's the BAe Hawk still in contention ? We already have them as our AJT . Are we replacing Hawks with the same version of the Hawk ? Hasn't there been any advances in AJT or LIFT technology ? Or is the Hawk timeless ?

It must be the oldest trainer in that short list with the baseline model going all the way back to the 1960s & 70s when Paddy was middle aged & being treated for an enlarged prostate . @BMD

Besides , for the life of me I don't understand what was HAL thinking when they were lost the tender for Trainers in Malaysia to the Koreans & instead of teaming up with ADA & coming up with a stripped down version of the LCA Mk-1 , they came up with the grand idea of a fully metallic HLFT -42 with an MTOW between Mk-1 & Mk-2 which is neither fish nor fowl ?

Not surprisingly we haven't heard anything about it whereas if they focused on a stripped down version of the Mk-1 it'd have been flying by now .

Here's another opportunity lost to capture the international market for such AJT / LIFT cum LCA coz there's no marketing & sales team within the "Maharatna " DPSU , something which doesn't bother HAL nor the MoD under whom they function or of course the GoI .

Had there been one they'd have scanned the world's AFs including the IAF to check when such a requirement pops up & made projections accordingly which'd justify such a project where they could've approached MoD with a proposal accordingly & I'm sure it'd be approved or they could fund such a project internally . Instead here we are .

No clue . Don't even know how & why it was conceived. Probably someone in the ARDC is either a fan of the Marut or is a descendant of someone associated with that team overdosing on nostalgia.

Besides how's the BAe Hawk still in contention ? We already have them as our AJT . Are we replacing Hawks with the same version of the Hawk ? Hasn't there been any advances in AJT or LIFT technology ? Or is the Hawk timeless ?

I have written in one of my comments above that one that the Hawk is out of production, it's there in the table just for comparison...

Besides , for the life of me I don't understand what was HAL thinking when they were lost the tender for Trainers in Malaysia to the Koreans & instead of teaming up with ADA & coming up with a stripped down version of the LCA Mk-1 , they came up with the grand idea of a fully metallic HLFT -42 with an MTOW between Mk-1 & Mk-2 which is neither fish nor fowl?

They stood no chance, the LCA Mk1 is not an export friendly product. The FA-50 is a highly mature, heavily combat-proven platform with deep supply-chain backing from U.S. defense giant Lockheed Martin...

And, SK makes EXPORT ORIENTED products. One more example being the very successful KT-1 Woongbi, the HTT40 will NEVER even come close to the flight performance or export success it has.

Not surprisingly we haven't heard anything about it whereas if they focused on a stripped down version of the Mk-1 it'd have been flying by now .

That is not a solution any air force would want to buy.
You either design a product with exports in mind or you design it solely for your own use. You cannot try to do some compromise and expect orders.

Couldn't ARDC consult with ADA on design? Is there some firewall between ARDC/ADA? Aren't they obligated as a publicly traded company if ARDC is struggling?

Huge market opportunity for HAL... hope HLFT-42 gets a shot.

Couldn't ARDC consult with ADA on design?

They do... Just it is not as simple as get ADA to help and it will be fixed...

By that logic HTT-40 and HJT-36 should not have had the design issues they did.

ARDC and ADA do collaborate where possible/required.

From assigned to ADA, I meant as a GoI funded project...

hope HLFT-42 gets a shot.

You will have to wait at least +5-6yrs from today for anything concrete about that project.

 

[screambowl]

The Chinese acquisition of Diamond Aircrafts has proven to be very fruitful for them. Our big companies should also aim to buy R&D heavy firms like this from the West and utilize their work in our projects....

What the HTT-40 could have been...

View attachment 53277
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Much of the design elements and work experience that was required to make the TA-20 came from the purchase of Diamond Aircraft Industries by Wanfeng Aviation


China is buying all the general aviation R&D heavy companies... Diamond, Cirrus, some Cessna plane designs, very importantly Continental Aerospace (piston engine powerhouse), Enstrom helicopters, Mooney Aircraft...

The combined R&D they just PURCHASED is more than India has done in 80yrs w.r.t civilian general aviation. And it has helped them with military use too... The TA-20 concept began civilian design but is now a very capable trainer aircraft.

Only Adani and Ambani and Tatas in India have that capability to buy such companies. May be India lacking number of Adanis, Tatas and Mahendras.

These industrialists are already overburdened with projects and money they have borrowed from the state and banks.

 

[Ashwin]

LCA Mk1A trainer can fully fulfill the role of an advanced trainer.

LCA is a tailless delta wing design. The least preferable to be a dedicated advanced trainer.

 

[superuser726]

LCA is a tailless delta wing design. The least preferable to be a dedicated advanced trainer.

Yes that's not ideal, but currently the focus does seem to be on software and network centric emulation for training.

Flight characteristics of the LCA aren't too bad that it would be totally inconceivable as a trainer. Sure it bleeds speed and lands at high alpha, but it has its own benefits.

As I also said in the same comment, this design/size/original purpose difference makes it an unlikely choice...

Also we are the same people who were using Mig 21 for the advanced training completion some time ago

 

[superuser726]

Only Adani and Ambani and Tatas in India have that capability to buy such companies. May be India lacking number of Adanis, Tatas and Mahendras.

These industrialists are already overburdened with projects and money they have borrowed from the state and banks.

Not really.

Example being Mahindra's purchase of GippsAero...
Although it did not turn out well at all, they did manage to make one plane prototype...
A part of the cause for failure was bureaucracy...

 

[_Anonymous_]

I have written in one of my comments above that one that the Hawk is out of production, it's there in the table just for comparison...

They stood no chance, the LCA Mk1 is not an export friendly product.

It's over engineered for an AJT & then again there's the cost factor plus it's an unproven aircraft when it was offered.

The FA-50 is a highly mature, heavily combat-proven platform with deep supply-chain backing from U.S. defense giant Lockheed Martin...

And, SK makes EXPORT ORIENTED products. One more example being the very successful KT-1 Woongbi, the HTT40 will NEVER even come close to the flight performance or export success it has.

HAL has to keep iterating the HTT-40 while they're in serial production if they really want to optimise performance else it'd be a sub par piece going by the information you've put out. It's not an insurmountable task .

That is not a solution any air force would want to buy.
You either design a product with exports in mind or you design it solely for your own use. You cannot try to do some compromise and expect orders.

Fine we design it for our own use then . Besides what's wrong with the solution ? The LCA was never meant to be a trainer or a LIFT platform which is the reason you'd want to downgrade it & also make it cost competitive.

In any case I personally don't think we'd be going in for imports. It's either what I've suggested - a completely stripped down version or the Mk-1a minus some avionics.

As it is GoI is going to spend a bomb on imports from Rafale to MTA to potentially 2 squadrons of Su-57. They'd be damned if they're going to import support platforms like AJTs too especially when we've covered the basic , intermediate & LIFT profiles with indigenous offerings.

They do... Just it is not as simple as get ADA to help and it will be fixed...

By that logic HTT-40 and HJT-36 should not have had the design issues they did.

ARDC and ADA do collaborate where possible/required.

From assigned to ADA, I meant as a GoI funded project...



You will have to wait at least +5-6yrs from today for anything concrete about that project.