India eyes 6th generation FCAS, looks at tying up with France for possible collaboration
- Thread starter Tatvamasi
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Ok.
Similar issues happened with Eurofighter program, and France went its own separate way.
However I am struggling with the definition of a 6th generation fighter jet.
For USA it was mainly stealth, and net Centric capabilities.
But their F 22 program started in 1981 and the jet was formally inducted in 2005 .
Thats 24 years of development.
It can be argued that what the Americans were trying to develop in 1981 , is now available off the shelf, when it comes to all the net Centric capabilities they wanted, and now it should not take that long.
But the other technologies, such as an actual stealth, low radar and IR signature airframe, and a matching jet engine are still difficult to make , and those who have it won't sell it .
So two questions.
What in 2026 is the definition of a 6th generation fighter jet.
What sort of time frame can a country expect from start to an actual combat ready 6th generation jet ?
Your Indian brain isn't that functional either.
The thread is more connected to my comment, which is about a 5th generation jet program India was part of. The thread is much aligned to that topic, as many 5th generation technologies are relevant to 6th generation program.
There is no relationship wirh petrol prices in Pakistan with this thread
In fact, generations should be defined by how wars are fought. The fifth generation ultimately sought to gain a survivability advantage by being the first to spot the enemy and thus the first to fire, whether in air-to-air or air-to-ground combat. To achieve this, the U.S. focused heavily on stealth—unlike France, for example—but we still pursued the goal of firing first through other technical means. We see that in the fifth generation, the platform continues to concentrate a significant number of capabilities that enable it to fulfill its mission. In the sixth generation, capabilities are no longer concentrated on a single platform, but the effect of those capabilities is concentrated on a single target; and normally, there might be only one sensor or one effector on each of the drones we plan to use to fulfill the mission: as a result, the fighter is now merely the manned part of the system—and it is a part that we might choose not to expose. At the start of the 6th generation, the fragmentation of subsystems will not be as extreme as what I describe, but we will get there—hence the importance of a robust, secure network to ensure the entire system is coordinated.
Aye, that means the next stop which is 6th generation, is a concept about multiple platforms working together. Mainly sensor fusion , networking, software Wizardry and human in the loop .
Throw in the new thing AI , and its a vastly capable system, not a single platform.
Radar invisibility can be replaced with electronic jamming and spoofing.
That should reduce the complexity of airframe design.
But likewise, the more parts are added to a system, you also introduce more failure points.
Software hacking, disruptive communication attacks , reducing the need for an actual hard kill.
A few cons i can think of.
When did Chinese claim that J20 is not VLO?
I hope you're not referring to nomenclature of their generation system
J15, is far from being a failure, and is on 3rd iteration with J15T
J35 started as internal TD proje t
From being a threat they have become an irritant now and Indians have lost a lot of precious time being entangled with this scam. Don't forget but ignore them on every platform they have become irrelevant and their strategic advantage can be reduced to mud.
Op Sindoor must continue every year in the month of April and May to keep them at bay. Just like after monsoon you do anti mosquito spray treatment in the garden. This is their aukaad.
Removing that is the main goal of 6th gen.
Partly true.
One of the biggest goals of airframe designers is to eliminate shaping itself for stealth via the use of metamaterials and other techniques. But until that happens, shaping is necessary. 95% of F-22's stealth comes via shaping, but that's been reduced to 60% on F-35, similar to the goal on AMCA. Su-57 and J-20 are similar, but we see the most advanced effect on the J-35A, which uses a large amount of metamaterials. AMCA will also come with mm, and so will the next variant of Su-57.
The clues are in their revelations. The J-35A is said to have an RCS as small as a human palm, which is in the 0.001m2 class (quite a bit bigger), and J-20's RCS is much bigger than the J-35A, whereas the F-22's RCS is that of a single segment on a finger. That makes the J-35 entry-level VLO, the F-22 a proper VLO and J-20 between LO-VLO. This is consistent with Western evaluations of the J-20 too.
Another clue is the large number of protrusions sticking out of the fuselage relative to the F-22 and Su-57. Wings, tails, canards, strakes, all contribute to RCS. F-22 and Su-57 eliminates those as much as possible while they stick out like a sore thumb on the J-20. The J-35 is a far better design.
6th gen only retains the wings, and we will eventually see morphing wings on more advanced designs.
The end result is the J-20 is not a true VLO aircraft. But it qualifies as a stealth jet and can operate from greater distances with longer-ranged weapons in order to compensate for the higher RCS relative to American jets. Meaning it can operate from 200 km away and look like an F-22 operating from 50 km away, and modern radars with coopertive targeting can pick both up from reasonable BVR distances too. The Chinese only need to ensure they possess the more advanced sensor tech, and they have been doing that.
I dread the day when there's no man in the loop and weapons are working autonomous. Example is 1983 soviet missile alert .
Shape and material for stealth are very expensive to achieve. Remedial steps are cheaper.
For example the shooting down of F 117 by Yogoslavia in 1999
This is a thread about FCAS, everybody please remain on topic.
Humans will always remain in the loop, doesn't matter whether it's 6th gen or 10th gen fighter jet. HMI will continue to evolve though with AI getting more precise, yet isn't a substitute for NI.
Chinese 6th gen , tail less design is already flying. Well at lest as per the videos I watched.
Nobody else has a flying 6th gen prototype yet.
The U.S. Air Force Flew a Sixth-Generation NGAD Fighter in 2020 — China Didn't Fly One Until 2024 and the World Thinks Beijing Is Winning
China's J-36 and J-50 prototypes made headlines in 2024, but the U.S. Air Force confirmed it flew a full-scale sixth-generation NGAD demonstrator in 2020 — designed, built, and flown in roughly one year. The program likely includes multiple successive prototypes tested in classified...
www.19fortyfive.com
Amreeka is still well ahead of your masters. Just that they haven't revealed what their prototypes look like (other than B21 which is 6th gen bomber).
Ok
Your master is ahead of our master.
At least this is what your post implies.
If J20 was stealthy enough, chinese wouldn't need to come up with altogether new design in J35.
Designwise, J35 is much better than J20.
America is your master not ours
. We all saw how Fauji leader Munir went to Washington to do the annual lund chattna ceremony of Amreekan president that every Pak PM has done every year. Strange people, your leader is in bed with Trump, you beg money from American institutions like IMF World Bank and you call Americans our master .I suppose you think America sent USS Enterprise to cheer us on while we graped your army in 1971.
It never does. Leave you people, Hitler is a prime example why cousin marriage is dangerous.
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Terminator fan, eh?
There's no choice, gotta spend. One of my most oft repeated quote is "In the near future, warfare will belong to the rich."
F-117 shoot-down is a one-off thing, not something that can be repeated consistently. Can't rely on unconventional planning and luck whenyou wanna scale tactics over the larger battlespace.
That's consistent with Western evaluations too. While they said the J-20 is behind the curve, they also said the Chinese will be able to match Western tech in 15-20 years. And we are there now, with the J-35. They also said the Chinese will get 6th gen alongside or before the US.
SCAF would make sense but it has a longer development cycle and will come online in 2040's. The GCAP if japan takes leadership in it will be online by 2035. AMCA should get inducted
My vote is on SCAF. The train for GCAP left the station quite a few years ago.
SCAF Pros: Excellent relations with France, improving with Germany and stable with the Spain. The Airbus proposal of 2 different airframes (heavyweight, long-range fighter for DE and ES, middle-weight carrier & n-capable for FR) works in our favour, should it come to pass. The heavyweight can be a perfect replacement for Su-30 2040+, and the middle-weight will spearhead the carrier combat aviation (& n-delivery, if AMCA MK2 isn't already doing it by then). We can contribute towards the development of VLO CCAs, MUM-T, radar & EW suite, combat cloud, computing and fibre-optic architecture for flight n sensor fusion. And of course, scale. Indian participation should complement the existing trilateral partnership, and not come at the cost of German n Spanish participation.
SCAF Cons: France wants around 80% of workshare and overall over the entire project for less than 40% of R&D cost-split. India won't bite that, having learned our lessons from the FGFA saga. If India's participation comes at the cost of the Germans n Spanish, then we'll be bearing 50% of R&D with around ~20% of workshare, which is the last thing the Indian side wants, an FGFA redux.
GCAP Pros: Smooth sailing programme (for now at least), comes online earlier (2035-40 timeframe), will make for an excellent stop-gap 6th gen purchase 10-15years from now, if the IAF finds itself in that situation. We offer the scale which reduces the costs drastically for all involved parties. UK would definitely love that, haha.
GCAP Cons: Smooth sailing programme (so far), meaning there's isn't much of a workshare pie left for us. Whatever we can contribute towards, the current trio can do it too. With Canada joining as an observer (can't rule out a full-blown participation) and Poland next in line, it doesn't leave much, if any, room for us. Too many chefs spoil the broth.