Air Engagement of Operation Sindoor : Analysis

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

The entire premise of Op Sindoor makes no sense. Makes me question the competence of everyone involved.
Modi & his clowns wanted a military retaliation but were also afraid of full scale warfare, so they instructed IAF to not strike PAF assets. So, no SEAD which made them sitting ducks when they approached the border.

War is not a game. Its gambling with life & death. IAF rightly got their asses handed to them on 7th May. They were lucky that only a few a/c were downed.

The fact that IAF agreed to such an op shows how deeply incompetent or unserious these airforce personnel are. Also, you can notice a farcical explanation attributed to the airforce for not revealing their loses, which falls apart on simple counter-questioning.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

Give me proof.

This is the the fu_ckin point. The CDS has already accepted air-losses, they are unwilling to reveal the details.

>start a conflict
>get your *censored* handed to you cause you are not allowed to strike PAF assets
>hide your losses with farcical explanations

just incredible competence on display.

P.S. go through the list of rafale pilots that were awarded gallantry awards. Your answer is in that list.

 

[South block]

The entire premise of Op Sindoor makes no sense. Makes me question the competence of everyone involved.
Modi & his clowns wanted a military retaliation but were also afraid of full scale warfare, so they instructed IAF to not strike PAF assets. So, no SEAD which made them sitting ducks when they approached the border.

War is not a game. Its gambling with life & death. IAF rightly got their asses handed to them on 7th May. They were lucky that only a few a/c were downed.

The fact that IAF agreed to such an op shows how deeply incompetent or unserious these airforce personnel are. Also, you can notice a farcical explanation attributed to the airforce for not revealing their loses, which falls apart on simple counter-questioning.

Likes of Vishnu som & shiv aroor are elite kids. I remember they made a hero out of Abhinandan back in 2019 who should have been court martialed but papa links & emotionally charged buffoonery janta saved him...... They are part of the system providing cover for the fck up after fck up by IAF. Porkiye know they can always take these Pee-L 15 & AMAARAM dodgers by surprise.... Bunch of overconfident clowns.

 

[TARGET]

The entire premise of Op Sindoor makes no sense. Makes me question the competence of everyone involved.
Modi & his clowns wanted a military retaliation but were also afraid of full scale warfare, so they instructed IAF to not strike PAF assets. So, no SEAD which made them sitting ducks when they approached the border.

War is not a game. Its gambling with life & death. IAF rightly got their asses handed to them on 7th May. They were lucky that only a few a/c were downed.

The fact that IAF agreed to such an op shows how deeply incompetent or unserious these airforce personnel are. Also, you can notice a farcical explanation attributed to the airforce for not revealing their loses, which falls apart on simple counter-questioning.

I agree, the GOI didn't want a full-scale war. It was surprising to see the IAF was posturing with an escalation ladder. If they launch 30 missiles, we will respond with 40. We should have targeted 100 to 200 coordinates on 9th May, planes are parked on the airfield, yet we are not hitting them. What are we waiting for? Why this mentality of Raja Harishchandra? The government of India was not prepared for war due to cost escalation. If you have your intelligence, you should hit all the targets. The worst part was the presence of Vikram Misri in the briefing. I hope we will conduct special forces operations in the southern and northern regions after the DEAD and SEAD actions. Changing the map .

 

[Lolwa]

We are planning to add escort and standoff (modified escort) jammer pods to the MKI.

For now, we have chosen the indigenous Talon Shield as SPJ and Israel's Scorpius EJ for escort on the MKI. We use Knirti's SAP-14 for standoff (modified escort) with a new indigenous standoff (modified escort) jammer as replacement.

As for Rafale, SPECTRA provides both self-protection and escort. It's capable of neutralizing threats from a distance like Scorpius EJ.

LCA Mk2 will also not need an escort jammer, rather a standoff jammer for modified escort jamming will be made, if necessary. They are still deciding such things.

Modified escort is what the Growler does, ie, it stays outside the range of enemy SAMs, whereas escort jamming puts the jammer aircraft inside SAM rings. Rafale and LCA Mk2 don't need pods for that. Gripen and Typhoon do 'cause they haven't designed the jets for internal carriage of large antennas, so their wingtip jammers only provide self-protection, like the case for the MKI. And Growler is stuck with large pods 'cause they had made those pods back in the 60s for the Prowler and were forced to use the same systems.

Podded systems need more power to be effective, so they give the illusion of being better, but in reality the survivability of such jets is so bad that the extra power is necessary for them to operate from further back than what internal suites allow. It means escort jamming is more effective than modified escort, which is why a Growler type capability is not necessary for Rafale and LCA Mk2. MKI needs modified escort jammer pods due to its large RCS and low agility when carrying such pods.

True standoff jamming is currently provided by business and transport aircraft with much larger antennas to make up for the distance, but the main advantage of that is being able to carry more EW experts along with you. However cognitive EW will make them obsolete after a point. EW drones are the future.

But they are working on a standoff capability for Rafale in order to defeat SAMs from very long ranges via a podded jammer. The most modern SAMs today have ranges exceeding 400 km, up to 600 km, and in the future they will exceed 1000 km. So a pod will become necessary for jamming at such ranges. This is also essentially modified escort.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1934256442493792738

Look at the sheer size of that thing.

But I thought rafale didn't need standoff jamming? And spectra was enough @anonymous

Air forces always plans for worst case scenerio , in this case ofcourse IAF considered pl-15 as 200 + km range. so this is unlikely to have been a intelligence failure ....this was a made up story to support pl-15 kill scenerio.

when CDS said IAF was taken by surprise ??....he talked about tactical mistake & corrected it ( most probably he was referring using hammer on rafale on first day ).

recovery of intact pl-15s hubmled its own hype created by chinese state media & now we all know its just a average chinese bvr missile , not some kind of a magical weapon as presented before this conflict.

Saab 2000 Erieye has a detection range of approx 350 km ( tracking range roughly 250 km ) & claiming its guided PL-15 100 km inside indian airspace thats add up to total 450 km ....its a funny story to tell.
i dont think theirs AWACS are even integrated with PL-15.

No SAM debries ? that means we didn't lose any Rafale & those tail and engine photos were deepfakes.

Saab erieye has 450 KM detection range. It could have guided. Also the alleged shootdown were all under sub-100km from the Pakistani border. The Bhatinda one being 80km. The pl-15E itself could have achieved those kills. They had spammed about a 20-25 pl-15's atmost across the airspace.

 

[Lolwa]

I agree, the GOI didn't want a full-scale war. It was surprising to see the IAF was posturing with an escalation ladder. If they launch 30 missiles, we will respond with 40. We should have targeted 100 to 200 coordinates on 9th May, planes are parked on the airfield, yet we are not hitting them. What are we waiting for? Why this mentality of Raja Harishchandra? The government of India was not prepared for war due to cost escalation. If you have your intelligence, you should hit all the targets. The worst part was the presence of Vikram Misri in the briefing. I hope we will conduct special forces operations in the southern and northern regions after the DEAD and SEAD actions. Changing the map .

At that time there was no precedent set economic state was dicey itself due to the Russo-ukrainian war. It was more to set precedent. If you see the pattern post balakot there was a major reduction in insurgent/terrorist activities. After op-sindoor it has even gone down further (red fort attempt was there but that was retaliated with a bombing in Islamabad high court). The entire focus of the Pakistani establishment is now West. TBF there military is stretched and they have a lot of pain points we can exploit at this stage.

However, Ereiye + Link 17 integration seems to be a plausible theory to my mind.

Without Erieye link 17 pl-15 wouldn't have hit rafale and spectra would have jammed it. The entire reason spectra failed was because it was being directed by the Erieyes. Spectra is effective against fighter level radars. A full fledged 4D AESA on the Erieyes would be much more resilient.
The s-400 shooting down their first Erieyes was when PAF got rattled and they started hiding their Erieyes and being much more sneaky which resulted in the Bholari strike leading to Sqn Ldr Usman's death.

 

[Lolwa]

This is the the fu_ckin point. The CDS has already accepted air-losses, they are unwilling to reveal the details.

>start a conflict
>get your *censored* handed to you cause you are not allowed to strike PAF assets
>hide your losses with farcical explanations

just incredible competence on display.

P.S. go through the list of rafale pilots that were awarded gallantry awards. Your answer is in that list.

The 7th May strike was limited to terror launchpad sites. The Pakistanis knew about it and took advantage.

 

[Lolwa]

The entire premise of Op Sindoor makes no sense. Makes me question the competence of everyone involved.
Modi & his clowns wanted a military retaliation but were also afraid of full scale warfare

Since a lot of people here have short term memories, I will remind you. It was a response to Pahalgam and destroying terror launchpads and training areas. Pakistani mil assets were not on table because it was done by terror groups not by Pakistani military (as usual). So the IAF was only cleared to attack terror sites. No clearance was given to them to attack Pak mil establishment unless attacked by the Pak military. So 7th May our entire targets were terror sites in Pakiland.

These were the initial sites. How many of them got killed is up for discussion?
The Pakistanis knew no mil site would be attacked and so ambushed our AF guys once they hit the sites.
No AEWCS from our side


This is what the Pakistanis claim was the formation but I don't think this is accurate but we can get an idea from this.
Clear case of there was no interest of an air war and more of distraction and striking just like Balakot. In case of Balakot there was no loss during the strikes. The PAF was prepared for this time with the presence of the Saab Erieyes.

This is what we hit finally on the 7th. Objectives were achieved. Rest we all know what happened next on 8th 9th and 10th.

 

[randomradio]

But I thought rafale didn't need standoff jamming? And spectra was enough @anonymous

Depends on the type of SAM it's engaging. SAMs before 2014 were at 200 km or lower. Since then the 40N6 and SM-6 allow for ranges beyond 300 km, which pushes aircraft beyond horizon, ie, targets are no longer within LoS; 370 km horizon at an altitude of 12 km. 40N6M now comes with a range of 600 km, which means all aircraft below 18 km will have to operate inside SAM rings. So now we need more powerful jammers, alongside aircraft that can fly at much higher altitudes.

Future SAMs will have OTH ranges of 1000-1500 km. We will even see missiles in LEO, eventually.

Saab erieye has 450 KM detection range. It could have guided. Also the alleged shootdown were all under sub-100km from the Pakistani border. The Bhatinda one being 80km. The pl-15E itself could have achieved those kills. They had spammed about a 20-25 pl-15's atmost across the airspace.

I doubt Erieye is integrated with Chinese AAMs. They can help cue the J-10's radar though, even if it's not much.

 

[randomradio]

Since a lot of people here have short term memories, I will remind you. It was a response to Pahalgam and destroying terror launchpads and training areas. Pakistani mil assets were not on table because it was done by terror groups not by Pakistani military (as usual). So the IAF was only cleared to attack terror sites. No clearance was given to them to attack Pak mil establishment unless attacked by the Pak military. So 7th May our entire targets were terror sites in Pakiland.
View attachment 50943
These were the initial sites. How many of them got killed is up for discussion?
The Pakistanis knew no mil site would be attacked and so ambushed our AF guys once they hit the sites.
No AEWCS from our side
View attachment 50944

This is what the Pakistanis claim was the formation but I don't think this is accurate but we can get an idea from this.
Clear case of there was no interest of an air war and more of distraction and striking just like Balakot. In case of Balakot there was no loss during the strikes. The PAF was prepared for this time with the presence of the Saab Erieyes.
View attachment 50945
This is what we hit finally on the 7th. Objectives were achieved. Rest we all know what happened next on 8th 9th and 10th.

One should ask themselves why the PAF grounded themselves while the IAF were busy hammering away from the 8th onwards?

 

[Hydra]

This is the the fu_ckin point. The CDS has already accepted air-losses, they are unwilling to reveal the details.

CDS mentioned that we had loss. That could be UAVs, not necessarily fightef jets. Without official statement or visual evidence in media, its immature to tell that we lost so & so aircraft.

>start a conflict
>get your *censored* handed to you cause you are not allowed to strike PAF assets
>hide your losses with farcical explanations

Yeas, we should have hit them militarily sultanously on first day itself and capture minimum Hajipir pass & Neelum valley following days before accepting ceasefire request.

 

[Asterion Moloc]

In contrast, there is no solid proof of any Pakistani aircraft being shot down beyond Indian claims based on radar data & possible intelligence inputs from within Pakistan, which may or may not be accurate.

Dinga definitely had a manned aircraft down there by SAM fire as seen by display unit hardware typically found inside cockpit of manned aircraft like the altimeter(?) found. pakees even claimed that s400 missile was taken by hq-9b to explain the debris of S400 missile, then even spread that turk röachiye's drone akincky was shot down (which in itself costs 30mil USD a piece) , unless turk röachiye like porkiye is in-bred retard and is using analog altimtere inside drones, it won't make sense.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2010937664237945062

 

[South block]

Dinga definitely had a manned aircraft down there by SAM fire as seen by display unit hardware typically found inside cockpit of manned aircraft like the altimeter(?) found. pakees even claimed that s400 missile was taken by hq-9b to explain the debris of S400 missile, then even spread that turk röachiye's drone akincky was shot down (which in itself costs 30mil USD a piece) , unless turk röachiye like porkiye is in-bred retard and is using analog altimtere inside drones, it won't make sense.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2010937664237945062

These are part of 48N6 SAM actuators for TVC

1/n




2/n




3/n




4/n


May or may not have taken target out & probably self destruct.

 

[Asterion Moloc]

These are part of 48N6 SAM actuators for TVC


4/n
View attachment 50957View attachment 50958

May or may not have taken target out & probably self destruct.

Still doubtful of this image being from 48N6 SAM, for one the edge of the glassy cricle is in depression in wreckage unlike the other image in which it is in flush with the rest of the body, but interesting still.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

@Ashwin Sir , This thread serves No purpose at all

Whatever lessons were to be learnt have been learnt by IAF

What we see here is innuendos and conjectures

 

[South block]

Still doubtful of this image being from 48N6 SAM, for one the edge of the glassy cricle is in depression in wreckage unlike the other image in which it is in flush with the rest of the body, but interesting still.

Watch from 6:22 minutes onwards slowly & very carefully..... You will have all your answers.

 

[RISING SUN]

Yes. Unfortunately. We also found that J-10CE + PL-15 is a deadly combo. J-35AE with internally mounted PL-15 is going to be even much lethal for all our air assets. Rumour mill also says that PAF has asked the Chinese to integrate their 500kms VLRAAM PL-17 with both J-10CE & future J-35AE(externally mounted). Our Phalcons and Netra(s) would be in deep trouble once PAF acquires this missile.

We will have stealth against stealth before it gets too late, at least on Western front.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We will have stealth against stealth before it gets too late, at least on Western front.

We already have found our 5th gen counter against Chinese 5th gen jets on both eastern and western front.

 

[babablacksheep]

We already have found our 5th gen counter against Chinese 5th gen jets on both eastern and western front.

I suggest, you stop until atleast 1st su57/60 reaches India, given recent experiences & our procurement nature

 

[screambowl]

Akash NG can take down any stealth aircraft, in addition the EOTS signals when coupled with the IR imaging it is a very potent system when integrated with Akashteer.