India eyes 6th generation FCAS, looks at tying up with France for possible collaboration

[lmaoxd]

Hmm at the end of the day timeline is all that matters for India. The FCAS is the best plane on paper since it will be built from the start as a carrier capable 6th gen especially if germany leaves the program. But the program looks unstable and the timeline not so great.

If germany does leave or gets kicked out and india joins in 2027 or so

I never implied its swift equivalent, its a eurofighter Typhoon size demonstrator for GCAP/tempest which will be flanker size in full form.
Hence a demonstrator, and its not a proper full scale version.

The Combat Air Flying Demonstrator: Rehearsing and preparing for GCAP - European Security & Defence

BAE Systems has announced that its pioneering Combat Air Flying Demonstrator has reached a major milestone, with two thirds of the aircraft’s structural weight now ‘in manufacturing’. The UK-funded and developed Combat Air Flying Demonstrator is designed to test, develop and mature a range of...

euro-sd.com

according to a BAE Systems representative, but it is not in any sense a prototype for GCAP. The demonstrator may not even resemble the definitive production GCAP fighter, whose final configuration has not been decided. Rather, it is primarily intended to help BAE Systems to de-risk the forthcoming next-generation combat aircraft programme by rehearsing the application of advanced new-design solutions and digital





Its not coming before 2040 at best, stop taking these comments at face value.



Minor partner currently, even currently its Germany and France bickering, Spain doesn't have a say.

yea 2040 look increasingly likely for the GCAP but the FCAS looks even worse today no? idk man a lot of stuffs happening and there are a lot of timelines that idk about. Lets wait an watch

 

[Optimist]

Rafale C first flight was in 1991.
And what about Neuron UCAV ? A technical success for a first VLO try.

You're right it wasn't designed in the 80's's then, The Rafale A first flew in 1986, so it was designed in the 70's Thanks for making me google the Rafale A

Really you want to count a drone? Heck I can make a RC model airplane too

 

[Subgradewalker]

Guys, you're thinking too much. Let the Rafale deal be signed first before jumping to (financial & political) capital heavy, unproven, risky ventures like FCAS, GCAP.
There's no way GOI is doing that anytime soon.

Focus is gonna be on AMCA & it's engines. Whatever tech that industry needs to complete it will have to be gained through investing in R&D on top of plethora of JVs being established. If you are getting old technology as JV.. it means that it's an opportunity for you to create missing foundation quicker. After that, we are on our own.

As for people asking what can India contribute to FCAS & GCAP...

The point is not → what can India contribute? The point is → Is India ready to contribute? I do not believe we are ready yet. We will be only if AMCA is executed properly by the pvt industry and it meets the goal of establishing pvt R&D ecosystem.

Note: There is a difference. We can send our scientist to GCAP & FCAS but do we have enough to invest energy simultaneously in AMCA & 6th gen?
Because when it comes to 6th gen system.. neither of FCAS & GCAP countries have leapfrogged India similar to 4th+ gen system. All of us will need scientist working from similar level.
After all, as of now, 6th gen is about Scientist, not Factories. For all the parties concerned.

At most, India can join as observer, sub-system developer to avoid being left out completely, without heavy institutional, financial investment. We are in no position to be core development partner before AMCA.

 

[Hydra]

India in the future needs a heavy weight replacement for the su30MKI.

A true MKI replacing aircraft must be a heavy class air superiority fighter with stealth and sixth gen elements. So that must be twin engine fighter with each engine have a thrust 180-190 KN wet thrust, also it should generate huge electrical power out to feed the sixth gen electronics. Asper @Picdelamirand-oil, the engine will be an updated Trex engine, and if true noway it will meet the heavy class engine requirements.

So FCAS will be a Rafale replacement, not an aircraft replacing MKI. And its good if are getting involved in FCAS development.

 

[Sathya]

We won't spend much in the development of FCAS . We ll only buy carrier capable 6 gen fighter for Navy in small numbers.

LCA to LCA navy took a lot of time ..

Amca to naval version will be slow .. where we can buy FCAS.

However for IAF, after Amca , we ll be having 6 gen indigenous fighter development.

 

[Rajput Lion]

He is right. AMCA is going to be not just a 5th gen fighter but rather 5+ gen fighter because it'll be designed to fight along with CCAs and our other assets, right from its inception. Once we crack the engine code, it's gonna prove to be one hell of a fighter aircraft having all-aspect VLO stealth, supercruise, supermaneuverability(with TVC) and dedicated MUM-T.

 

[Ad 04 30]

I was wondering what FCAS will have over AMCA MK2?

Since it's designed in 120-140kN class with no VCE( afaik) plus is tailed design. So I imagine it won't have substantially higher electrical power


So wouldn't it be almost in same class?

Just need to get DEW, MUMT and other such technologies


Thoughts?

 

[Rajput Lion]

I was wondering what FCAS will have over AMCA MK2?

Naval version

Since it's designed in 120-140kN class with no VCE( afaik) plus is tailed design. So I imagine it won't have substantially higher electrical power


So wouldn't it be almost in same class?

Just need to get DEW, MUMT and other such technologies


Thoughts?

Without ACE, NGF won't be a proper 6th gen. In fact, having an Adaptive Cycle engine, should be default hallmark of all future 6th gen fighters.

 

[redpanda]

Guys, you're thinking too much. Let the Rafale deal be signed first before jumping to (financial & political) capital heavy, unproven, risky ventures like FCAS, GCAP.
There's no way GOI is doing that anytime soon.

Focus is gonna be on AMCA & it's engines. Whatever tech that industry needs to complete it will have to be gained through investing in R&D on top of plethora of JVs being established. If you are getting old technology as JV.. it means that it's an opportunity for you to create missing foundation quicker. After that, we are on our own.

As for people asking what can India contribute to FCAS & GCAP...

The point is not → what can India contribute? The point is → Is India ready to contribute? I do not believe we are ready yet. We will be only if AMCA is executed properly by the pvt industry and it meets the goal of establishing pvt R&D ecosystem.

Note: There is a difference. We can send our scientist to GCAP & FCAS but do we have enough to invest energy simultaneously in AMCA & 6th gen?
Because when it comes to 6th gen system.. neither of FCAS & GCAP countries have leapfrogged India similar to 4th+ gen system. All of us will need scientist working from similar level.
After all, as of now, 6th gen is about Scientist, not Factories. For all the parties concerned.

At most, India can join as observer, sub-system developer to avoid being left out completely, without heavy institutional, financial investment. We are in no position to be core development partner before AMCA.

These kinds of news keep popping up time to time in media. I won't really put too much thought into this..I don't think GoI would be interested in any risky ventures like those after their experience with FGFA. I remember reading headlines of India joining GCAP like back in 2024. It has been 2 years, yet nothing out there showing even a sign of India showing any interest with GCAP. So, this FCAS things could be just noise like the GCAP buzz of a few years back.

 

[Gautam]

Do we have any data/info on the FCAS ? Like say size of the aircraft, MTOW, combat range etc. ? I would like to know if this aircraft would be a heavy fighter or a medium fighter.

I imagine the FCAS would complement & eventually replace the Rafale in French military service. For us, assuming we participate, would the FCAS project yield a Su-30 (38.8 ton MTOW) replacement or a Rafale (24.5 ton MTOW) replacement. Or will it be something in between?

 

[YoungWolf]

Do we have any data/info on the FCAS ? Like say size of the aircraft, MTOW, combat range etc. ? I would like to know if this aircraft would be a heavy fighter or a medium fighter.

I imagine the FCAS would complement & eventually replace the Rafale in French military service. For us, assuming we participate, would the FCAS project yield a Su-30 (38.8 ton MTOW) replacement or a Rafale (24.5 ton MTOW) replacement. Or will it be something in between?

Germany n Spain want a long-range, heavy interceptor NGF (speaking strictly about the core showpiece: the fighter jet), while France wants a nuclear-delivery and carrier compatible jet. The Germans and the Spanish have no need for n-delivery carrier compatibility, hence butting heads with the French. To resolve this, Airbus has proposed a 2 aircraft solution. The Germans & the French get their heavy fighter with long range, while France gets their carrier capable version.

The German-Spanish version could be in the same mould as Su-57/F-22 when it comes to range, payload n MTOW (or higher), though it's still too early to comment as the programming is evolving. The French version could be slightly bigger than Rafale, but not much. It won't replace the Rafale outright, like how the Rafale didn't replace the Mirage-200 outright from French service.

 

[babablacksheep]

Do we have any data/info on the FCAS ? Like say size of the aircraft, MTOW, combat range etc. ? I would like to know if this aircraft would be a heavy fighter or a medium fighter.

I imagine the FCAS would complement & eventually replace the Rafale in French military service. For us, assuming we participate, would the FCAS project yield a Su-30 (38.8 ton MTOW) replacement or a Rafale (24.5 ton MTOW) replacement. Or will it be something in between?

AFAIK from various articles, forums, We can expect 30-35 tons mtow, SU57 sized jet.

Germany n Spain want a long-range, heavy interceptor NGF (speaking strictly about the core showpiece: the fighter jet), while France wants a nuclear-delivery and carrier compatible jet. The Germans and the Spanish have no need for n-delivery carrier compatibility, hence butting heads with the French. To resolve this, Airbus has proposed a 2 aircraft solution. The Germans & the French get their heavy fighter with long range, while France gets their carrier capable version.

The German-Spanish version could be in the same mould as Su-57/F-22 when it comes to range, payload n MTOW (or higher), though it's still too early to comment as the programming is evolving. The French version could be slightly bigger than Rafale, but not much. It won't replace the Rafale outright, like how the Rafale didn't replace the Mirage-200 outright from French service.

Germany basically wants a GCAP type fighter.
~40tons mtow

 

[Ginvincible]

If true, India should learn from its mistakes and firmly hold on to this collaboration. Don't let this become another mmrca1. Allow the private sector or even HAL to be the JV partner, but get it done.

There are probably young bureaucrats licking their lips at the amount of graft they can do with 6th generation over their careers, but realistically this is the quickest way to get into the next generation, and the timelines won't have India too far behind.

 

[Rajput Lion]

After the latest Ops, GOI has fully realised the importance of air dominance. Now IAF will have all of its wishes fulfilled. So if they want to join FCAS program, then we'll do so. IAF is tired of chasing global air power trends, now they want to be part of it. 'Nuff said.

 

[Sathya]

If true, India should learn from its mistakes and firmly hold on to this collaboration. Don't let this become another mmrca1. Allow the private sector or even HAL to be the JV partner, but get it done.

There are probably young bureaucrats licking their lips at the amount of graft they can do with 6th generation over their careers, but realistically this is the quickest way to get into the next generation, and the timelines won't have India too far behind.

We aren't even spending on Rafale deal or Engine deal yet..
Not to mention Mk2 / Amca deal

FCAS investment for TEDBF will be for smaller numbers, we would buy off the shelf when time comes rather than investing now.. can we afford for large investment now ?
( That be equivalent to re allocating funds of TEDBF development cost and maybe even second batch of 31 Rafale M )

We can only provide market for FCAS development not the investment fund IMO.

Offcourse, considering Chinese threat, investing in Su 57 in short term for air force , FCAS in long term for navy is ideal .

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

Guys, you're thinking too much. Let the Rafale deal be signed first before jumping to (financial & political) capital heavy, unproven, risky ventures like FCAS, GCAP.
There's no way GOI is doing that anytime soon.

Focus is gonna be on AMCA & it's engines. Whatever tech that industry needs to complete it will have to be gained through investing in R&D on top of plethora of JVs being established. If you are getting old technology as JV.. it means that it's an opportunity for you to create missing foundation quicker. After that, we are on our own.

As for people asking what can India contribute to FCAS & GCAP...

The point is not → what can India contribute? The point is → Is India ready to contribute? I do not believe we are ready yet. We will be only if AMCA is executed properly by the pvt industry and it meets the goal of establishing pvt R&D ecosystem.

Note: There is a difference. We can send our scientist to GCAP & FCAS but do we have enough to invest energy simultaneously in AMCA & 6th gen?
Because when it comes to 6th gen system.. neither of FCAS & GCAP countries have leapfrogged India similar to 4th+ gen system. All of us will need scientist working from similar level.
After all, as of now, 6th gen is about Scientist, not Factories. For all the parties concerned.

At most, India can join as observer, sub-system developer to avoid being left out completely, without heavy institutional, financial investment. We are in no position to be core development partner before AMCA.

2 JV engines needed -
- 5gen engine for AMCA Mk2 & UCAVs.
- 6gen engine for 6gen jet, Wingman UCAV.

FCAS need to have at least 1 big bay for AGMs, CrMs, AShMs, ARMs.
Otherwise the airframe is DIY for us.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

A true MKI replacing aircraft must be a heavy class air superiority fighter with stealth and sixth gen elements. So that must be twin engine fighter with each engine have a thrust 180-190 KN wet thrust, also it should generate huge electrical power out to feed the sixth gen electronics. Asper @Picdelamirand-oil, the engine will be an updated Trex engine, and if true noway it will meet the heavy class engine requirements.

So FCAS will be a Rafale replacement, not an aircraft replacing MKI. And its good if are getting involved in FCAS development.

It is not about replacing a particular jet anymore, but catching global tech & making accordingly.
6gen manned jet, 1st made for Navy, even if 1 engine, will be heavier than F-35-C.
5gen TEDBF will be say 2-3 tons heavier than AF-AMCA.
6gen TEDBF will few tons heavier than F-22, Su-33, Su-57.

FCAS intends to replace French Rafales, but why would they think about Russian origin jet?
Bcoz of different needs -
- They disagreed with British with EF-2000.
- They're disagreeing with Germans.
- They'll disagree with us.

We can have FCAS components but the the airframe IMO will be DIY or IN+IAF.

 

[lmaoxd]

you can reuse the same core for the AMCA and the FCAS engines. thats like 70% of the cost done right there. There is a reason why the french are keen to do the engine for us. Its cause they will save a lot of time and money for the core.

2 JV engines needed -
- 5gen engine for AMCA Mk2 & UCAVs.
- 6gen engine for 6gen jet, Wingman UCAV.

FCAS need to have at least 1 big bay for AGMs, CrMs, AShMs, ARMs.
Otherwise the airframe is DIY for us.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

If true, India should learn from its mistakes and firmly hold on to this collaboration. Don't let this become another mmrca1. Allow the private sector or even HAL to be the JV partner, but get it done.

There are probably young bureaucrats licking their lips at the amount of graft they can do with 6th generation over their careers, but realistically this is the quickest way to get into the next generation, and the timelines won't have India too far behind.

Instead of DIY airframe, Babus already looking for HRFA tenders.

 

[Subgradewalker]

2 JV engines needed -
- 5gen engine for AMCA Mk2 & UCAVs.
- 6gen engine for 6gen jet, Wingman UCAV.

FCAS need to have at least 1 big bay for AGMs, CrMs, AShMs, ARMs.
Otherwise the airframe is DIY for us.

No one's gonna give it to us on a plate. At most we might get near 5th gen engine. Then it depends on our agencies to learn from that and develop further on it.

No JV is gonna give us state of the art technology. It's old technology meant for nascent industry to establish the foundation quicker. We will still need to learn and build things of our own.