MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Lolwa]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2012030656365429141

We need mission computer access and production of majority subassemblies. As long as we can mki the rafale. We are good. In fact the rafale and scar needs to be made a codevelopment project.
Keep the Nashik plant for su-57 and pak da.
And the new rafale plant for future scaf production.

 

[Bon Plan]

No. HAL had the MKI line, but they/ADA didn't make Tejas on time and is still not fully done.

And you found the production real rate of HAL satisfying ?
At least with the Mirage assembly line they would have seen a proper and well organized line on duty.

 

[Bon Plan]

We need mission computer access and production of majority subassemblies. As long as we can mki the rafale. We are good. In fact the rafale and scar needs to be made a codevelopment project.
Keep the Nashik plant for su-57 and pak da.
And the new rafale plant for future scaf production.

In the Rafale active stealth case, Spectra has indeed to be fine tune in anechoic chamber with each dedicated load combo.
You don't need the access of Spectra deep software to do so, as I don't think that the spec of each config is written in the software. You need an anechoic chamber and the possibility to insert datas in Spectra. Nothing imposible.

 

[Aniruddha]

And you found the production real rate of HAL satisfying ?
At least with the Mirage assembly line they would have seen a proper and well organized line on duty.

As of Sept-Oct 2025, there were more than a dozen fully built LCA Tejas Mk1A airframes rolled out by HAL minus engines from their Bangalore & Nashik assembly lines a dozen more on the assembly jigs.
Before the contract for an additional 97 Tejas Mk1A was signed in Sept 2025, HAL was contracted to deliver 83 jets so the production rate was in accordance to that number.

Whatever I have mentioned above isn't something that I made up randomly, all of this info is available out there if someone is willing to do a bit of searching but I guess people prefer to bury their head in sand like an ostrich.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The 114 Rafales will result in an annual capex outflow of ~$2bn over 15 yrs. Unless the IAF gets a bigger budget, this prog will leave little room for another major fighter acquisition atleast for the foreseeable future.

Just for context, after the licensed production contract for MKI was signed in 2001, the IAF got the Rafale only in 2016.

Su-57MKI will cannibalize AMCA orders just like 114 Rafale will eat into future Mk2 numbers.

Without Su-57MKI, we would be naked in front of PAF J-35s. AMCA is only going to come online post 2035 and post 2040 with its definitive engines. Nothing fills that void except Su-57. It is imperative. Both GOI and IAF know this. GOI wants IAF to accept Su-57MKI with full TOT and make in India while IAF just wants 60-80 Su-57 just as a stop-gap. IAF wants 114 Rafales(and even much more) made in India.

Plus or minus, both Rafale and Su-57 are a lock. How much numbers and what kind of deal? Only time will tell.

 

[Speedster1]

Without Su-57MKI, we would be naked in front of PAF J-35s. AMCA is only going to come online post 2035 and post 2040 with its definitive engines. Nothing fills that void except Su-57. It is imperative. Both GOI and IAF know this. GOI wants IAF to accept Su-57MKI with full TOT and make in India while IAF just wants 60-80 Su-57 just as a stop-gap. IAF wants 114 Rafales(and even much more) made in India.

Plus or minus, both Rafale and Su-57 are a lock. How much numbers and what kind of deal? Only time will tell.

Even if the Saudis/Chinese finance J-35s for Pak, the opex costs will have to be borne by them alone.

The PLAAF itself is only just inducting the jet so there won't be a benchmark cost for PAF to reference.

Also, the PAF will likely not want to jeopardize sales of the F-16V/AIM-120C8 and other hardware from the USA. They can probably justify a small number of J-35 because the US won't sell them the JSF.

Imo, the IAF will likely match PAF J-35 on a one-for-one basis with Su-57 to minimize the diversion of funds from its pet Rafale/MRFA. Nothing seems to be more important for them.

GoI will likely be cautious about Su-57MKI because the trade deal with the US hangs in the balance + threat of 500% tarrifs.

Lutnick, in particular, has highlighted defence acquisitions from Russia as an issue. What complicates matters is the F-35 offer on the table.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Fifth Generation planes are very High maintenance planes

And Rafales will have a High Sortie Generation Rate than J 35

Once Enemy Airbases are Disabled with Missile Salvos , what is the Use of a plane which is hiding in some REAR airbase like on May 10 , when J 10s were HIDING near Afghanistan

Our Main Strength is Missiles and we have to keep strengthening it

10 Pakistani bases must be knocked out with 150 missiles in the First Hour of the Conflict

 

[Lolwa]

Fifth Generation planes are very High maintenance planes

And Rafales will have a High Sortie Generation Rate than J 35

Once Enemy Airbases are Disabled with Missile Salvos , what is the Use of a plane which is hiding in some REAR airbase like on May 10 , when J 10s were HIDING near Afghanistan

Our Main Strength is Missiles and we have to keep strengthening it

10 Pakistani bases must be knocked out with 150 missiles in the First Hour of the Conflic

Next time there shouldn't be any hesitation in taking out Pakistani military assets. And instead of political blister actual key sites need to be taken out where their elites hide.

 

[Ashwin]

Defence Procurement Board okays proposal to acquire 114 Rafale jets from Dassault​

In a significant development to secure next-generation fighter jets, the Defence Procurement Board, headed by Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh, on Friday okayed the proposal to acquire 114 Rafale fighter jets from French plane-maker Dassault.

Sources said the purchase proposal will now be taken up for clearance at the level of Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, when he chairs the next Defence Acquisition Council, the apex decision-making body of the Ministry of Defence. The Cabinet Committee on Security, chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, is expected to give the final nod.

India and France are looking to seal the deal for the jets in February when a meeting is scheduled between Modi and French President Emmanuel Macron.

The Rafale deal will not impact India's plans to make the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas Mark-2, said sources.

The AMCA is a fifth-generation plane. The Tejas Mark-2 is planned to be multi-system upgrade over the existing order of 180 Tejas Mark-1A jets the Ministry of Defence has placed with the public sector plane-maker, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. All indigenous jets, their timeline and budgeting have been planned separately from the 114 Rafales.

In September last year, the Indian Air Force had moved a formal proposal to the Ministry of Defence seeking 114 more Rafale fighter jets as part of its multi-pronged plan to add more number of jets.

The IAF based its choice on multiple reasons. First, it already flies 36 Rafale jets, while the Navy has ordered 26 marine‑variants of the same jet. Increasing numbers would reduce maintenance costs. A Rafale flight‑training and Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) facility is operational at the IAF base in Ambala. The IAF has the capacity – the space, spares, tooling and trained manpower — to immediately take in two squadrons (36-38 planes).

The jets will be acquired under a ‘Make in India’ scheme, with Dassault Aviation — the maker of the Rafale — partnering with an Indian firm. Last week, Dassault said it had increased its shareholding in Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) from 49 per cent to 51 per cent, making the joint venture a majority-owned subsidiary of the French company. Anil Ambani-led Reliance Infrastructure is a partner in DRAL.

The French plane-maker will integrate Indian weapons, missiles and ammunition on all 114 jets and will also provide secure data links to allow digital integration of the jets with Indian radars and sensors sending imagery to ground-based controllers.

Also, the plane maker will provide transfer of technology (ToT) for making air frames. Its suppliers like engine maker Safran and avionics provider Thales will be part of the ToT. The indigenous content is expected to be between 55 per cent and 60 per cent once ToT for air frames, engines and avionics is done.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Without Su-57MKI, we would be naked in front of PAF J-35s. AMCA is only going to come online post 2035 and post 2040 with its definitive engines. Nothing fills that void except Su-57. It is imperative. Both GOI and IAF know this. GOI wants IAF to accept Su-57MKI with full TOT and make in India while IAF just wants 60-80 Su-57 just as a stop-gap. IAF wants 114 Rafales(and even much more) made in India.

Plus or minus, both Rafale and Su-57 are a lock. How much numbers and what kind of deal? Only time will tell.

IMO GoI is waiting for the FTA with EU to be signed. That should signal to the US by both the EU & India , there are alternatives to the US.

If Trump's serious about the FTA or some sort of a bilateral deal , we should see a breakthrough. This'd also involve import of a substantial weapons package.

I suspect you'd also see clearance for the Su-57 by the US or something resembling an agreement however grudgingly by the US. If there's a CF in Ukraine that should come as a shot in the arm for us.

Till then we aren't going to see movement on the Su-57.

We need mission computer access and production of majority subassemblies. As long as we can mki the rafale. We are good. In fact the rafale and scar needs to be made a codevelopment project.
Keep the Nashik plant for su-57 and pak da.
And the new rafale plant for future scaf production.

I think the tweet I quoted implied the very opposite of what you're suggesting. Full access to the Rafale & MKI zation isn't possible for that's how the Rafale has been engineered , unlike the Su-30.

Only access to the mission computer won't cut it. It needs to be adapted to the SPECTRA EW suite apart from other packages. That'd also involve major modifications. Further this also happens to be a cash cow of Dassault.

With AC prices both CAPEX & OPEX going thru the roof not everyone would be able to afford 4.5th Gen FAs let alone SCAF when it comes through which'd have an even limited customer base.

How will organizations like Dassault survive ? They don't have access to unlimited funds like LM does of the DoD . And France is going through its own economic crisis.

 

[Ashwin]

Without Su-57MKI, we would be naked in front of PAF J-35s. AMCA is only going to come online post 2035 and post 2040 with its definitive engines.

Its time to take a loss. Su-57 is not coming.

Even if we order the unproven platform today, it will take 5-6 years to Indianise (MKI) and recertify. Now add complexity of different training and maintenance supply chain. Simply not worth it.

This will be the nation's last major fighter import. Hopefully.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Without Su-57MKI, we would be naked in front of PAF J-35s. AMCA is only going to come online post 2035 and post 2040 with its definitive engines. Nothing fills that void except Su-57. It is imperative. Both GOI and IAF know this. GOI wants IAF to accept Su-57MKI with full TOT and make in India while IAF just wants 60-80 Su-57 just as a stop-gap. IAF wants 114 Rafales(and even much more) made in India.

Plus or minus, both Rafale and Su-57 are a lock. How much numbers and what kind of deal? Only time will tell.

Russian fanboys today.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Even if the Saudis/Chinese finance J-35s for Pak, the opex costs will have to be borne by them alone.

The PLAAF itself is only just inducting the jet so there won't be a benchmark cost for PAF to reference.

Also, the PAF will likely not want to jeopardize sales of the F-16V/AIM-120C8 and other hardware from the USA. They can probably justify a small number of J-35 because the US won't sell them the JSF.

Imo, the IAF will likely match PAF J-35 on a one-for-one basis with Su-57 to minimize the diversion of funds from its pet Rafale/MRFA. Nothing seems to be more important for them.

GoI will likely be cautious about Su-57MKI because the trade deal with the US hangs in the balance + threat of 500% tarrifs.

Lutnick, in particular, has highlighted defence acquisitions from Russia as an issue. What complicates matters is the F-35 offer on the table.

Getting the J-35 is one thing. Training , development of strategies around it , maintenance etc quite another.

Assuming PAF gets a squadron or 2 in a couple of years which I doubt ( I'm estimating they'd get it by 2030 ) doing all the aforementioned activities & gaining mastery over it will take a good 6-8 years at the very minimum.

Then these are 5th Gen FA we're talking about where after every sortie the F-35 takes a full 48 hours if not more to be battle ready again. You can imagine what it'd be like for Chinese 5th Gen FAs that too export quality ones.

IMO GoI is aware of the rapidly closing window of opportunity in which we've to take out the war waging machinery of Paxtan to prevent a 2 front axes when we go up against China.

The next particular encounter will see precisely that along with a decapitation strike in all likelihood for as long as Murtad Shi'a Munira is at the helm the danger will be ever present. Hence the entire top brass of all the 3 arms & ISI would be in the cross hair.

This also means we won't seize territory or at least nothing beyond some adjustments on the border perhaps taking the Haji Pir Pass & straightening the Shakargarh Bulge. Nothing related to PoJ&K be it Gilgit Baltistan or the so called Azad Kashmir.

I believe this is the right course of action. Once Paxtan is on the verge of collapse after we've handled China one way or another we can go in for PoJ&K & sort out the malaun sub human Lungis in BD.

Till then we'd have to graduate our responses & tackle one enemy at a time.

 

[Lolwa]

Getting the J-35 is one thing. Training , development of strategies around it , maintenance etc quite another.

Assuming PAF gets a squadron or 2 in a couple of years which I doubt ( I'm estimating they'd get it by 2030 ) doing all the aforementioned activities & gaining mastery over it will take a good 6-8 years at the very minimum.

Then these are 5th Gen FA we're talking about where after every sortie the F-35 takes a full 48 hours if not more to be battle ready again. You can imagine what it'd be like for Chinese 5th Gen FAs that too export quality ones.

IMO GoI is aware of the rapidly closing window of opportunity in which we've to take out the war waging machinery of Paxtan to prevent a 2 front axes when we go up against China.

The next particular encounter will see precisely that along with a decapitation strike in all likelihood for as long as Murtad Shi'a Munira is at the helm the danger will be ever present. Hence the entire top brass of all the 3 arms & ISI would be in the cross hair.

This also means we won't seize territory or at least nothing beyond some adjustments on the border perhaps taking the Haji Pir Pass & straightening the Shakargarh Bulge. Nothing related to PoJ&K be it Gilgit Baltistan or the so called Azad Kashmir.

I believe this is the right course of action. Once Paxtan is on the verge of collapse after we've handled China one way or another we can go in for PoJ&K & sort out the malaun sub human Lungis in BD.

Till then we'd have to graduate our responses & tackle one enemy at a time.

They are going to use it the same way as they have been using the j-10's fire some pl-15's and go cold. The only difference is with the j-35's they will be far more confident getting near Indian Air space. Unlike the rest of the PAF j-35 will allow them relative survivability against Indian s-400's. The only option for us is to prempt and bomb them before they can get their planes airborne.
Also f-35's will basically become a necessity after this.

 

[Lolwa]

Even if the Saudis/Chinese finance J-35s for Pak, the opex costs will have to be borne by them alone.

The PLAAF itself is only just inducting the jet so there won't be a benchmark cost for PAF to reference.

Also, the PAF will likely not want to jeopardize sales of the F-16V/AIM-120C8 and other hardware from the USA. They can probably justify a small number of J-35 because the US won't sell them the JSF.

Imo, the IAF will likely match PAF J-35 on a one-for-one basis with Su-57 to minimize the diversion of funds from its pet Rafale/MRFA. Nothing seems to be more important for them.

GoI will likely be cautious about Su-57MKI because the trade deal with the US hangs in the balance + threat of 500% tarrifs.

Lutnick, in particular, has highlighted defence acquisitions from Russia as an issue. What complicates matters is the F-35 offer on the table.

We might end up buying 40-60 f-35's. If the j-35 deal actually is legitimate. The su-57 requirement remains for 144 fighters.
Also it's quite funny that the j-35 news only became real once the order of 114 Rafales came to be.
The Cheenis really want us to force our focus on the Pakistanis.

 

[_Anonymous_]

They are going to use it the same way as they have been using the j-10's fire some pl-15's and go cold. The only difference is with the j-35's they will be far more confident getting near Indian Air space. Unlike the rest of the PAF j-35 will allow them relative survivability against Indian s-400's. The only option for us is to prempt and bomb them before they can get their planes airborne.
Also f-35's will basically become a necessity after this.

If we're going to pre emptively bomb them why do we need the F-35 ? I've always held the opinion irrespective what Paxtan gets we'd prevail over them just that the attrition we suffer will be on the higher side.

Further I think we've the wherewithal to detect & track the J-35s coming at us from Paxtan principally coz of their narrow geography & the advances we've made in radar tech especially detection & tracking stealth , IACCS , SBS etc .

Our goal ought to be to deter China. We do that & Paxtan is automatically catered to just like the Chinese are benchmarking their capabilities and capacities against the US . That way all their neighbours are easily handled.

That's something our security management has only now begun to understand appreciate & internalize.

That's the reason after a long slumber you're seeing movement on Project 75 I , MMRCA 2.0 / MRFA aka Rafales , discussions about Su-57 , more regiments of S 400 perhaps even S 500 along with joint production , IACCS being graduated to Sudarshan Chakra etc.

 

[Lolwa]

Our goal ought to be to deter China. We do that & Paxtan is automatically catered to just like the Chinese are benchmarking their capabilities and capacities against the US . That way all their neighbours are easily handled.

The Chinese have completed the fifth generation development and have moved to develop 6th gen fighters. While our own development for 4.5 gen fighters (mk2, tedbf) are still a long way to go. AMCA is nowhere to be seen and considering our development speed it's better we have f-35 in any case. CAATSA won't allow us to buy the su-57's until after 2028 without facing repercussions and Americans in any case will ask for baksheesh considering how Trump is behaving right now.
The f-35 can use both the meteor and amraam-d and with adir modifications we can integrate Israeli weapon systems. Point being the jump in EW capabilities will be massive and the f-35's will have a far better survivability against j-20's and j-35's than the rafale.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Instead of SU 57 , we should keep manufacturing SU 30 and MODIFY them for BRAHMOS

Just imagine 100 SU 30 firing 100 BRAHMOS together

And 100 PRALAY missiles launched from the Ground

Bye Bye PAF

If we can get BRAHMOS NG soon on Tejas , then that would be a huge advantage

 

[Rajput Lion]

They are going to use it the same way as they have been using the j-10's fire some pl-15's and go cold. The only difference is with the j-35's they will be far more confident getting near Indian Air space. Unlike the rest of the PAF j-35 will allow them relative survivability against Indian s-400's. The only option for us is to prempt and bomb them before they can get their planes airborne.
Also f-35's will basically become a necessity after this.

They used J-10's to fire PL-15s behind civilian air traffic. Tells you what kind of cowards we are dealing with! J-35 with PL-15 is much more serious and deadly proposition. It has nearly -20dBsm RCS in the worst case, so it could come much near towards our air assests and fire PL-15 within its NEZ. Both GOI & IAF understand the risk. After saying that Rafale + AMCA combo was enough for years, why do you think suddenly IAF gave a greenlight to foreign 5th gen acquisition? PAF's imminent J-35 acquisition is the answer.

 

[redpanda]

The Chinese have completed the fifth generation development and have moved to develop 6th gen fighters. While our own development for 4.5 gen fighters (mk2, tedbf) are still a long way to go. AMCA is nowhere to be seen and considering our development speed it's better we have f-35 in any case. CAATSA won't allow us to buy the su-57's until after 2028 without facing repercussions and Americans in any case will ask for baksheesh considering how Trump is behaving right now.
The f-35 can use both the meteor and amraam-d and with adir modifications we can integrate Israeli weapon systems. Point being the jump in EW capabilities will be massive and the f-35's will have a far better survivability against j-20's and j-35's than the rafale.

My friend we are not Uncle Sam's favourite nephew Israel. So, I don't think we will get the special privileges like how the Israelis have with their F-35s. And I doubt the Americans would allow us to integrate F-35 properly to our IACCS because S-400 is part of the network...So what would be the benefit of F-35s without all its bell and whistle aka network centric warfare capabilities... Atleast Rafales are somewhat integrated into our Network.