India - United States Relations

To say that IPS, IRS officers are more diplomatic due to experience from Indian districts... Do you live in India of an alternative universe?
Someone tell him the undiplomatic behaviour or rather bossy behaviour of Indian IAS class towards Indians. The only diplomacy they might have learnt is how to keep a politician happy.

This is a fact and it's known in the government. The actual diplomacy occurs at IAS level, where as the IFS only arranges the contact and guides about already existing treaties. How are you suppose to negotiate diplomatically on petroleum without the involvement of secretary petroleum, or on pharmaceuticals without secretary health who are IAS, or import and export duties without IRS?
Dude... India isn't ruled by monarchy and even if british tomorrow abolished monarchy.. it doesn't change the ground reality in India.
The British govt won't suddenly come and say that the deal was with monarchy and now we want a colony back 🤣🤣. Monarchy in europe is a showpiece and a tradition kept alive for public and to avoid unnecessary paperwork. They've no real authority over their govts.

It is not a show peace , the treaties are signed by Kingdom of Britain or Kingdom of any other European monarch in the name of Monarch, which are validated by elected government to ensure it's legality. The day it goes republic the treaties will go in ambience.

For example: Convention for the Extension of Hong Kong Territory (1898) which was an agreement between UK and Qing China to lease Hong Kong to Britain for 99 years. After the fall of Qing Dynasty and later when China became communist PRC, they formalized and legalized the treaty under Sino British joint declaration in 80's and the lease was again validated which ended in 1997.

This is the exact situation with India and China, the British are gone, the border is not validated under new government on both the sides and hence it is called as LAC not international border. What India says the Chinese won't agree and what China says India won't agree. Hence pre British era in India are taken as reference by India.

Lmao.. nehru became PM and 1947 happens, LBS comes and 1965 happens. Nehru enters into his third term and 1962 happens

It was ought to happen to demarcate the border exactly after the independence, Indian foreign policy makers should have sniffed. But my point is different with respect to S Jaishanker. He has been read by both China and US and they know very well his style of argument and how to actually create a deadlock. So many events of aggression is not a coincidence.

As for op sindoor.. you can't even understand basic stuff.. you won't be able to grasp the nature, scope of op sindoor and the strategic calculus behind it.
Let alone bringing a think tank guys statement on a podcast to peddle narrative as if he was the only person who commented his views among plethora of people.. including " brilliant strategist" like you.

For all the screaming you do, you can't even grasp the basic facts that it's not FMs call to take on the matters of military operations. Need further proof of your fallacy?

The only thing to understand is that cease fire was too early. PM Modi got double crossed by some one after that and hence Indo US crisis.

As for my knowledge on IR.. you're right.. I need to brush up my knowledge of IR. After all, i just did my degree in IR, read books, wrote papers, interacted with think tanks, interned there... I seriously need to join IPS to brush up my "IR" knowledge.

Congrats for your degree in International Relations, but it requires more than a degree to understand geo politics.
 
If are waging war on US, yeas they can stop French from supplying as NATO bomd is thicker than indo French relationship. Just like Brits did to France during Falkland war.
We are never going to wage war on US. It will be economic confrontation only.
 
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My take is, you are drawing too much inference from what has happened in just few months. It's all because of an idiot in Whitehouse. If you want to look at it, look at it more broadly.

Do you believe that India was EVER going to have a better relationship with US than Canada? or EU?

Look at what's their condition is in dealing with America. Canada faces 36% tariffs. And a humiliating call to surrender even its sovereign existence. This is the kind of idiot you are dealing with. In 2025, he has surrounded himself with yes men and sycophants.

I do not understand why and how people believe that India will be able to secure a better deal with America? Based on what? Diplomacy? LOL! There is no diplomacy with USA.

There is one way, which we could have done. It's criminal and would have spoilt our relationship with future leaders of USA. It's bribing and slush funds.

Pakistan did it...

We could do the same or via someone like Adani Ambani or some other 3rd party we could do that. But remember, doing that means once this entire sordid deal goes public we will be tarred with same dirty brush as Pakistan. It's a very temporary high. And Trump is not even a professional criminal... he is an ameture bully.
Trump is an idiot no doubt but he isn’t the only factor. The rapid rise of the anti India sentiment is not a coincidence.

The feeling in the Washington apparatchik minds is to not repeat the mistake of propping up the Chinese to bite the Soviets after the same Chinese bared their teeth at the US.
 
Trump is an idiot no doubt but he isn’t the only factor. The rapid rise of the anti India sentiment is not a coincidence.
The government is responsible for government to government relations. And that is defined by acts and much less by words. The acts of most governments towards India remain significantly aligned with our national interests. We are getting trade deals, technology, weapons etc. All this while not committing fully to any block. The only real loss is by Trump, which is ... well .... a constant everywhere.

The anti India sentiment among government (its singular, only US is doing it right now) is rather a lot of performance art plus a negotiation tactic to pressurize India in abandoning Russia-China bloc completely. I highly doubt that is in our interest. First, China is a neighbour and will remain such. Russia is a strategic partner and we can not abandon them at all. I do not even need to tell why. So conflict is natural. Trump administration is just using blunt tools when it can not have its way with India. Their statements and sign of frustration means we are not compromising. Our goal is to let this remain in the realm of talking mostly and just bid our time while diversifying our reltionships.

The other anti India sentiment is among people. This has very little to do with India itself and a lot to do with those people. Its also cyclical. Chinese faced it for a good 70 years or more. And now they are rich enough that anti China sentiment harms those who propogate it, so everyone tip toes around it. A sanction and cancellation by CCP carries a lot of cost in terms of lost opportunity and money. The day same will happen with India, it will stop as well.

The feeling in the Washington apparatchik minds is to not repeat the mistake of propping up the Chinese to bite the Soviets after the same Chinese bared their teeth at the US.
Its less about India getting rich and more about India not committed fully to their bloc as a subordinate. Unfortunately due to our geography and our history, we can NOT do it. There have been many nations in past who got extremely rich trading with west. The common factor in them was they were mostly vasals of USA. Only China is an exception and China is not there yet, even when compared to say Japan in actual properity. Its size makes is very consequential -- like India.

So, the distinction is, West does not want India to remain independent in foreign policy. It wants India to toe its line. Getting rich is not that much of a problem. Getting strong is also not that much of a problem. Its lack of alignment that is hard for west to accept.

Anyhoo, even if India gets about 1/2 as prosperous as China, most in west will accept that it is stupid to now resist India. They would rather give it a seat at their table with privledges that come with it. And thats now is a matter of time.
 
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This is a fact and it's known in the government. The actual diplomacy occurs at IAS level, where as the IFS only arranges the contact and guides about already existing treaties. How are you suppose to negotiate diplomatically on petroleum without the involvement of secretary petroleum, or on pharmaceuticals without secretary health who are IAS, or import and export duties without IRS?


It is not a show peace , the treaties are signed by Kingdom of Britain or Kingdom of any other European monarch in the name of Monarch, which are validated by elected government to ensure it's legality. The day it goes republic the treaties will go in ambience.

For example: Convention for the Extension of Hong Kong Territory (1898) which was an agreement between UK and Qing China to lease Hong Kong to Britain for 99 years. After the fall of Qing Dynasty and later when China became communist PRC, they formalized and legalized the treaty under Sino British joint declaration in 80's and the lease was again validated which ended in 1997.

This is the exact situation with India and China, the British are gone, the border is not validated under new government on both the sides and hence it is called as LAC not international border. What India says the Chinese won't agree and what China says India won't agree. Hence pre British era in India are taken as reference by India.



It was ought to happen to demarcate the border exactly after the independence, Indian foreign policy makers should have sniffed. But my point is different with respect to S Jaishanker. He has been read by both China and US and they know very well his style of argument and how to actually create a deadlock. So many events of aggression is not a coincidence.



The only thing to understand is that cease fire was too early. PM Modi got double crossed by some one after that and hence Indo US crisis.



Congrats for your degree in International Relations, but it requires more than a degree to understand geo politics.
1. You're confusing diplomacy with negotiation. IAS officers promotion to leverage of secretary is rooted in beauracracy and traditions, that doesn't mean IAS are better at it. They just know the technical details of their domain cause that's their domain of expertise. Similarly, diplomacy is domain of IFS' expertise and no IAS can replace that role.

Sec. Petroleum with his counterpart of USA will just share the details, flexibility etc. with each other. Diplomacy is left to IFSC officer which is far bigger than a domain specific negotiation. All those treaties, guides are the basis of which secretary discuss between them. Even Piyush Goyal won't be able to negotiate with Lutnick without a briefing and backchannel support of MEA corps stationed there. Ergo, you're thinking that IAS do diplomacy when what they do is negotiation at its best, surrounded by diplomats on both sides.

2. Hence, monarchy is a show piece. To save paperwork and cost. Abolishing monarchy will just mean re-paperwork at best. They got no real power. Infact the example you give vis a vis hong kong tells you that it's the paperwork that happens while taking in new ground realities.
Abolishing British monarchy won't change any ground reality for UK. Neither for wider europe.

Similarly, British India and independent India is different. But Congress govt and BJP govt doesn't change the nature of state or ground reality. So, your whole argument about brilliant strategy falls flat here. You're trying to defend something indefensible by creating fantasy out of a hat.
And you still haven't answered any of my questions.

3. Again, you're speculating just as you speculated about the brilliant strategic manuevor. Now you're only reflecting. On one hand you say IAS do diplomacy but then you're handling responsibility of border issues to FM.

4. Are you privy to any confidential detail or are you gonna continue with your conspiracy theories and speculations based on on theories as you've been doing for every one of your responses. Were you there in military command, when it was decided that we have reached all the objectives? Or are you saying jaishankar double crossed? 😂😂 Fr??
Indo-US crisis is due to a moment of recklessness by Trump in his desperation to be seen as a big boss and deal maker to his domestic public. It's not about double crossing. It's a nation accomodating a rowdy old men and their pen showing contest in white House.

5. Yes, a lot more. And do you have that "lot more", for you to go on around propagating these fantasy based brilliant strategic manuevor of yours? And as I said.. it's not just a degree
My take is, you are drawing too much inference from what has happened in just few months. It's all because of an idiot in Whitehouse. If you want to look at it, look at it more broadly.

Do you believe that India was EVER going to have a better relationship with US than Canada? or EU?

Look at what's their condition is in dealing with America. Canada faces 36% tariffs. And a humiliating call to surrender even its sovereign existence. This is the kind of idiot you are dealing with. In 2025, he has surrounded himself with yes men and sycophants.

I do not understand why and how people believe that India will be able to secure a better deal with America? Based on what? Diplomacy? LOL! There is no diplomacy with USA.

There is one way, which we could have done. It's criminal and would have spoilt our relationship with future leaders of USA. It's bribing and slush funds.

Pakistan did it...

We could do the same or via someone like Adani Ambani or some other 3rd party we could do that. But remember, doing that means once this entire sordid deal goes public we will be tarred with same dirty brush as Pakistan. It's a very temporary high. And Trump is not even a professional criminal... he is an ameture bully.

For the last part.. we should really nudge Ambani-Birla to fund some tech startups in silicon valley and relay those tech back to Indian market.
TCS, Infosys to fund technology stack there.
We did it with Adani by getting him to invest outside in logistics.. and that's why you can see NGOs and their leader parading narrative against Adani.
 
Since the days of the Biden admin (or maybe even earlier), American officials have stated on record in Senate hearings, etc that they wanted to use arms sales as leverage against India on trade, foriegn policy, etc.

Despite this, successive govts thought it fit to equip almost all of the INs latest surface ships (P-17/P-17A/P-71 IAC/NGC/ NGMV) with LM2500s. HAL builds them under license from kits supplied by GE.

This means we now have limited options to deal with American arm-twisting at a time when our forces are on a hot standby for war with Pak.

While oil purchases can be justified on the grounds of controlling inflation in India, buying new mil hardware like Su-57 is likely to open another can of worms in Ind-US relations.

At such a difficult time, it's level-headed diplomacy that is our best bet. For all his 'chad' messaging, Jaishankar has been called out in the past for his aggression by people within India's diplomatic community (Tharoor iirc.) I pity people in the unenviable position of Indian Ambassador to the US having to explain Jaishankar's jibes while trying to build rapport with their hosts.
 
And that's how a a false narrative is built. By harping on same thing despite being rebutted, proven false and yet not answering the counter-questions.

Deflect questions. Have a thick skin to ignore reality. Keep narrating untill it sticks.

If anyone thinks that Jaishankar as an minister of govt of India is being undiplomatic by being vocal... They've got no idea how deep the western hypocrisy runs and the ammunition (jabs) india have in locked warehouse for them.

Hypothetical case :
So far, we've been carefully wordered regarding EU-rosneft and US tarrifs by stating it's double standards and all..

If I was undiplomatic and straight forward, I will just say " Trump is afraid of Xi Jinpiing and China" and see the chaos unfold for the 🍊 in his domestic voteblock 😂😂
 
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1. You're confusing diplomacy with negotiation. IAS officers promotion to leverage of secretary is rooted in beauracracy and traditions, that doesn't mean IAS are better at it. They just know the technical details of their domain cause that's their domain of expertise. Similarly, diplomacy is domain of IFS' expertise and no IAS can replace that role.

Incorrect

US ambassador to France is a real estate man and not a career diplomat, but has got diplomat status on assuming charge as US's envoy to France. Similarly ex Indian army chiefs have been envoys to countries of high strategic importance, also presence of military attaches explains that diplomacy is not an individual's cake.

I would suggest you to do more research what diplomacy is.

Hence, monarchy is a show piece. To save paperwork and cost. Abolishing monarchy will just mean re-paperwork at best. They got no real power. Infact the example you give vis a vis hong kong tells you that it's the paperwork that happens while taking in new ground realities.

That paper work is bilateral, what if the latter negates it and does not cooperate and sends military to occupy a territory? Example Pakistan sent it's forces to occupy Kashmir even when instrument of Accession was in favor of India.


You're trying to defend something indefensible by creating fantasy out of a hat.
And you still haven't answered any of my questions.

You haven't asked any question, rather made personal remarks.

Indo-US crisis is due to a moment of recklessness by Trump in his desperation to be seen as a big boss and deal maker to his domestic public. It's not about double crossing. It's a nation accomodating a rowdy old men and their pen showing contest in white House.

They don't want another China and that's what they are doing. S Jaishanker has failed here.

Yes, a lot more. And do you have that "lot more", for you to go on around propagating these fantasy based brilliant strategic manuevor of yours? And as I said.. it's not just a degree

I am not propagating any fantasy I am giving you all the examples related to the assessment.
 
US ambassador to France is a real estate man and not a career diplomat, but has got diplomat status on assuming charge as US's envoy to France. Similarly ex Indian army chiefs have been envoys to countries of high strategic importance, also presence of military attaches explains that diplomacy is not an individual's cake.

See how you're contradicting yourself. Does that envoy work alone? Does embassy have no carrer diplomats stationed? That's why I said you're confusing diplomacy with negotiation.
A person in another field can be an envoy due to his flair in people to people skills but that doesn't mean that career diplomats role can be sidelined. You said IAS officer, IPS set the FP agenda and sidelined the whole role of EAM. That's idiocracy at its best.

And don't just cherry pick..
We have been having this conversation since many posts now, you have not provided anything beside allegations, rhetorics and conspiracy theories.
That paper work is bilateral, what if the latter negates it and does not cooperate and sends military to occupy a territory? Example Pakistan sent it's forces to occupy Kashmir even when instrument of Accession was in favor of India.

Again, stay in the context. Go read what you have been propagating this whole while with your strategic manoeuvre brilliance BS.
Monarchy is just an excuse. Take a history book, read it. States don't lack the number of excuses they can use to break the treaty, not recognise it anymore etc etc.
You still haven't given the proper basis of your strategic brilliance manoeuvre.
You haven't asked any question, rather made personal remarks.
I did, if only you would stop cherry picking and read your own statements and my counter questions.
They don't want another China and that's what they are doing. S Jaishanker has failed here.

I am not propagating any fantasy I am giving you all the examples related to the assessment.
No. You haven't given any examples. All you have given is conspiracy theories and speculations based on geographical events, of those you don't know the history, timeline of!
And in subsequent posts, you've convienently dropped them too.


One one hand, diplomacy isn't one man's game, on other hand one man failed. Diplomacy isn't a one off thing either!! Our diplomacy vis a vis west is still ongoing. Period. This verdict you're propagating in itself shows you've no idea about diplomacy.

"They don't want another China" ofc they don't. So what? Do we stop developing? Do we forsake our own interest for our white masters? Do we be like 26/11 and stop taking action because of masters order? While your same master itself deals with everyone it desires.
Diplomatic power comes from strength. Not pandering. No one can stop a strong nation and our diplomats shouldn't act like pussies either when west bombs anyone it likes, arms anyone it likes, buys from anyone it wants and yet preaches it's "slaves".. give it back to them. EU of 2020 has already been humbled and EU of 2025 is more willing to accept India as partner rather than a subordinate. That didn't happen by giving in.

Stop getting info and misinfo from Twitter and YouTube. Not everyone is like a 🍊 running his office from social media first.
 
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For anyone commenting on diplomacy failure of India vis a vis USA. Read the last para.

That's the people in US' cabinet these days. They don't even have basic common sense to not say these things out loud. As I already mentioned in my previous posts.. US cabinet is pen showing contest these days. And Indian diplomacy has little to do with it. Even canadians couldn't .

Case in point:

NVIDIA has asked it's manufacturing partner to hold production of its H20 chips due to Chinese backlash:

The production halt follows Chinese regulators pressuring major domestic tech firms to reduce or cancel H20 chip orders after US Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick made comments that Beijing found offensive. In a July 15 CNBC interview, Lutnick described the H20 as Nvidia's "fourth-best" chip and said the strategy was to "sell the Chinese enough that their developers get addicted to the American technology stack". (+1 leverage China)
 
what ppl connected to US admin are thinking......
They expected India to capitulate ....but it is taking longer..... :rolleyes:

She basically agrees " in diplomatic terms" that Trump screwed it himself 😂😂. And astute observation on EU deal about being showmanship so far. See her smile.

Infact, if he hadn't screwed it up, he would've gotten a good deal than he can get now. Tarrif are already gonna put inflationary pressure on US economy while most of goods comes from asian factories tarrifed heavily.
He probably provided a political space to modi for standing strong against US and take higher tarrif hit unlike the most probable default lesser 10% tarrif which would be optically less desirable.

I hope this provides more perspectives to claims of diplomatic failure on our side.
 
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See how you're contradicting yourself. Does that envoy work alone? Does embassy have no carrer diplomats stationed? That's why I said you're confusing diplomacy with negotiation.
A person in another field can be an envoy due to his flair in people to people skills but that doesn't mean that career diplomats role can be sidelined. You said IAS officer, IPS set the FP agenda and sidelined the whole role of EAM. That's idiocracy at its best.

I am not contradicting my self, what I said was IFS and a career diplomat can be replaced by a bureaucrat but IAS can't be replaced by IFS. Former election commissioner of India has been appointed as Ambassador to Croatia, who is an IAS, this is another example I am giving you, three examples I have given you earlier as well. How many IFS officers have been deputed as district magistrate in any state?


Again, stay in the context. Go read what you have been propagating this whole while with your strategic manoeuvre brilliance BS.
Monarchy is just an excuse. Take a history book, read it. States don't lack the number of excuses they can use to break the treaty, not recognise it anymore etc etc.
You still haven't given the proper basis of your strategic brilliance manoeuvre.

It was you who said it's just paper work in case european monarchy abolishes and they are just show peace, but I said and corrected you with the example of Hong Kong and right now LAC between India and China that it is not easy since this paper work is bilateral task and can't be done unilaterally.

No. You haven't given any examples. All you have given is conspiracy theories and speculations based on geographical events, of those you don't know the history, timeline of!

I am not making conspiracy theories I am giving you examples and events which have occurred.

For anyone commenting on diplomacy failure of India vis a vis USA. Read the last para.

That's the people in US' cabinet these days. They don't even have basic common sense to not say these things out loud. As I already mentioned in my previous posts.. US cabinet is pen showing contest these days. And Indian diplomacy has little to do with it. Even canadians couldn't .

Case in point:

NVIDIA has asked it's manufacturing partner to hold production of its H20 chips due to Chinese backlash:


Yeah right compare a democratic country sanctioned by a democratic country for just buying oil with a communist country reverse engineering the technology and stealing industrial secrets. I think you should rethink repeating your degree in international relations.
 
I am not contradicting my self, what I said was IFS and a career diplomat can be replaced by a bureaucrat but IAS can't be replaced by IFS. Former election commissioner of India has been appointed as Ambassador to Croatia, who is an IAS, this is another example I am giving you, three examples I have given
Yeah right compare a democratic country sanctioned by a democratic country for just buying oil with a communist country reverse engineering the technology and stealing industrial secrets. I think you should rethink repeating your degree in international relations.

you earlier as well. How many IFS officers have been deputed as district magistrate in any state?
Go to the whole Convo lmao. And see chronically you've been contradicting yourself
It was you who said it's just paper work in case european monarchy abolishes and they are just show peace, but I said and corrected you with the example of Hong Kong and right now LAC between India and China that it is not easy since this paper work is bilateral task and can't be done unilaterally.
Short term memory? This context started with your strategic brilliance manoeuvre of Congress signing MoU with CCP.

I am not making conspiracy theories I am giving you examples and events which have occurred

No. You're making a conspiracy theory out of those events neglecting their history and reason. Go read what you wrote again.
Yeah right compare a democratic country sanctioned by a democratic country for just buying oil with a communist country reverse engineering the technology and stealing industrial secrets. I think you should rethink repeating your degree in international relations.
You just are proving me correct that states don't lack reason to do things.
And nice of you to comment about things. If you think Russian oil tarrif is about Russian oil.. then youre a naive man. I will redo my degree if you've got the capability to grow up.


And please READ A BOOK
 
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US federal Bank didn't cut rates. Service inflation is down due to weak demand and shifting priorities because goods inflation is strong.
Labor market is weak. Tarrif rates are slowly being passed onto people and it's just the start. This at time when inflation was high already under biden.

Worlds biggest factory isn't weak and potential to be second biggest isn't buckling. Vietnam can hardly capture all market.

Meanwhile, China is buying more soybean from Brazil now, hurting his vote. Democrats are blasting him.


But that's just on surface. They need an official to co-ordinate with their funded groups and agents in the region. MAGA. Then you've got RIC amb, FM flurry meets. Russia saying they expect to be part of Sudarshan chakra. Jaishankar's remarks from Russian soil.
I won't count Chinese, since they are doing it to just spite Trump with little prospects of any Collab.

Plus due to double whammy of trumps claims of ceasefire and back to back doubling down with excuse of oil, simultaneous reports of being trade deal pressure on agri and dairy.. they can't even activate their agents inside opposition, since opposition can't oppose it in India's ever present election cycles.

Definitely many more reason that would be hidden from normal media and public discourse.

What do others think? Would love to know the reasons...
 
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