India - United States Relations

[Speedster1]

When i said this about Jaishankar some three years back, nobody had supported me. This fellow thinks that he is an EAM from a superpower who can rant against any country whenever he wants. The way he spew harsh words against Europe says everything, this same chap was silent when on china during 2020 incident. Single handedly sabotaged the necessary needed western support to us against china. Mark my word china will repeat another dokalam type once they finishes Taiwan.

I'd always wished GoI would choose a career diplomat as EAM over politicians like Sushma Swaraj. But frankly, Jaishankar has been a bit of a letdown. First, he is very undiplomatic in his public engagements at think tanks and conclaves. For all his talk of dehyphenating India-Pak, Jaishankar is always complaining about how the US treated India unfairly in the 1960s and 70s in terms of arms sales, et all.

True, national interest is supreme- whether it comes to India's oil purchases or mil cooperation with Russia. However, you don't sulk about it in public and expect to be called a 'diplomat'. Maybe he's doing this to shore up his public image and is shooting for a political career, post-retirement.

 

[Saaho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958001197123842321

I had this opinion since.... very long time now.

I believe selection of F404 and F414 were error of coincidence, failure of planning and stupidity of execution ie, incompetence. It is fixable, the due cost should be paid (in terms of moving to RD-33MK) and jets should be flying now.

Best part? If you want to export Tejas to a country that has good enough relation with US, you can always export F404 version.

Make a big inventory of RD-33MK parts that we import from Russia and assemble/make engines as well need locally at HAL. Pay whatever Putin is asking.

 

[jetray]

I believe selection of F404 and F414 were error of coincidence, failure

Seriously , so what about drones, transport aircraft, apache helis, P8I, chinooks. guided bombs..etc these are not co-incidence. Luckily we dint bite the fighter aircraft bait. But US can still arm twist French to deny the spares.

 

[Saaho]

Seriously , so what about drones, transport aircraft, apache helis, P8I, chinooks. guided bombs..etc these are not co-incidence. Luckily we dint bite the fighter aircraft bait. But US can still arm twist French to deny the spares.

None of that is as consequential as the engine. That single engine is holding IAF hostage. Now and 40 years from now. Both Tejas and AMCA are dead in water.

And no, US can do shit to stop France. French know which side of the bread is butter. Besides, unlike us, US does not hold much of a trade handle on France. Not to mention, among europeans, they have always pursued an independent policy.

They won't do much for just 36 aircrafts, but you buy 114 and also buy some subs, now we are talking.

Lastly, do not forget, among europeans, only France has its own nukes which are completely independent of US. It has its own missiles and subs and aircrafts completely independent of USA. Point is unlike other europeans, France and hold off and push Russia back if needed. Others will not be able to do shit. They need US for defending them.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Yeah keep peppering with rubbish apps & rules while this govt shows no action.. BJP got booted out in karnataka in elections, it was known as 40% commission govt. Zero action was taken by BJP high command. ppl are complaining that they need to pay bribe to get GST registration number while the govt is shouting from rooftops about increasing revenue collection.

You can have all those shiny apps but there****** is zero intention****** of taking any action. What did the current govt do to against the judge who was caught with money burning in his ho

Bro, where are they paying bribes for GST reg? It's online now. What bribes?
Even I have got a GST number. Nowhere did I have to pay any money to a babu to push files.

Then you jump from central govt to state govt. Then you claim since state govt lost, it's the most corrupt govt.. meanwhile same party won in rajasthan, MP,UP too. And the party winning karnataka is claiming vote chori .

How are you supposed to have a proper discussion with such moronic points and people who put em up.
Shiny apps? Zero intention? Tell me what kind of intention you mean?

Ports bill? UCC? Farm Laws? GST? Logistics? Maritime? Security? Banking? Fintech? ...
Why are you behaving like we are on twitter? This is supposed to be a discussion forum. Put some substance behind your claims. Not narratives that have roots in your bias, not reality.

For judge cash case? Heck... Where are you guys when govt pushed for judicial reforms? You think only one judge is corrupt? Are you that naive?

 

[Subgradewalker]

I'd always wished GoI would choose a career diplomat as EAM over politicians like Sushma Swaraj. But frankly, Jaishankar has been a bit of a letdown. First, he is very undiplomatic in his public engagements at think tanks and conclaves. For all his talk of dehyphenating India-Pak, Jaishankar is always complaining about how the US treated India unfairly in the 1960s and 70s in terms of arms sales, et all.

True, national interest is supreme- whether it comes to India's oil purchases or mil cooperation with Russia. However, you don't sulk about it in public and expect to be called a 'diplomat'. Maybe he's doing this to shore up his public image and is shooting for a political career, post-retirement.

Do you know the context of the conversation when Jaishankar compares US& Western hypocrisy vis a vis Pakistan?

He is exposing their hypocrisy when they demand that India dump Russia for them. Not hyphenating. Won't you be the first who will call it failure if India does so.
Diplomacy today is very much about presence in front of people and breaking western narrative in open, as much as it's about backroom discussions. In democracies like European.. they have been doing such things since colonial days.. to hide their hypocrisy from their own citizens and portray themselves as righteous.. that shores up the support for their actions. You need to break that convenient narrative and it happens through media and public. Not closed doors. When public knows the hypocrisy, there will be pressure on EU to get their own order in house first. This is 21st century. The technology led century. You can't do diplomacy on old principles. If the questions are asked in public, he will answer in public. And in IR strength is respected even in diplomacy.
I would urge you to see US, Russian and Chinese and their interactions with western ThinkTank. They will put your inferiority complex useless.

On that note: HE is the FM of India. A govt post. Not just an ambassador anymore. Your case would be valid only if he was this much in open when he was an ambassador. But as a minister in the govt of India.. he has the responsibility to rebuke western narrative.



Even Europe is now coming to terms with Jaishankar's view and weaning themselves off from China and USA and pursuing a multipolar world. Cause of the reality of ever changing world.

When i said this about Jaishankar some three years back, nobody had supported me. This fellow thinks that he is an EAM from a superpower who can rant against any country whenever he wants. The way he spew harsh words against Europe says everything, this same chap was silent when on china during 2020 incident. Single handedly sabotaged the necessary needed western support to us against china. Mark my word china will repeat another dokalam type once they finishes Taiwan.

Much needed western support? Lmao, in 2020 west was demanding us to give up our relationship with russia!
A rant? Do you watch the whole conversation or just YouTube clips? The kind of questions being put up back then?
And now the same EU is looking for India as a partner. If we had bent down back then, there would be no respect left and they would dictate the narrative as they did pre-2014.

And what's with this need of "support"? These kind of questions are the most stupid ones. You know who is getting western support these days? Gaza and Ukraine. Do you know what's happening with them?

Stop looking for pat on the back from west. Stand up! Be strong. Have some self respect. Believe in your armed forces. Chinese got the beatings in galwan.. they will get more beating for any mis-adventurism. We just bombed pakistan. Did you see China starting any diplomatic face off with India? You know why? Cause of the lessons of galwan and their own limits.
I don't know why people haven't yet realised this. China didn't do anything beyond some statements for their "all weather ally". Even the military inputs were as deterrence, not offensive.


As for military domain.. our armed forces will do their job as they have done in every war. ( except 1962 when there was no army sent there)

 

[_Anonymous_]

I'd always wished GoI would choose a career diplomat as EAM over politicians like Sushma Swaraj. But frankly, Jaishankar has been a bit of a letdown. First, he is very undiplomatic in his public engagements at think tanks and conclaves. For all his talk of dehyphenating India-Pak, Jaishankar is always complaining about how the US treated India unfairly in the 1960s and 70s in terms of arms sales, et all.

True, national interest is supreme- whether it comes to India's oil purchases or mil cooperation with Russia. However, you don't sulk about it in public and expect to be called a 'diplomat'. Maybe he's doing this to shore up his public image and is shooting for a political career, post-retirement.

I've personally felt his public exposure has been on the higher side. There's rarely a week gone before you see a video of his uploaded on YT addressing some public seminar or some TT or doing a one on one interview or part of a group discussion & so on .

The problem with this is if you're in an adversarial position with global order of power distribution your PoV then gets highlighted which draws more attention to your position than necessary on controversial issues thus leaving you vulnerable to action in the worst case scenario.

I can't tell how much of this was an outreach to the aforementioned entities to put forward India's PoV on a whole host of matters more so for the extremely hostile position the western media has taken ever since the BJP government has come to power aided & abetted by desi coolies within & outside the country & how much of this was Jaishankar revelling in the limelight in the evening of his illustrious career.

Perhaps one overlapped with the other . These public engagements then are double edged swords. I'd like to see your views on the topic . @Jaymax

 

[Subgradewalker]

It is not me who has neglected US policies, it is the S Jaishanker who failed in that. Why do you think NSA Doval is handling Pakistan, China and Russia. Because from now onward you can't take risk of allowing this man to ruin the chess play by promising things which can't be fulfilled.

There is something called area of responsibility. NSA handles security matters. FM handles diplomatic.
NSA meets with his counterparts. FM with his counterparts. CCS has its own things to do.
You are creating a friction where there are none. Both work in their capacities. All your statements are based on speculations.
Once again, there's a lack of understanding of how IR works.

As for neglecting US policies? What do you even mean by that? Here you've a US which is botching it's relations with its traditional cold war era partners.. and you're saying India is neglecting US policy?
Infact it's the jaishankar's insistence on multi alignment that we have got enough diplomatic space to not bend down to USA.

It is not S Jaishanker who did that, this is not in his domain. NSA Doval and ministry of Trade Piyush Goyal and the IAS officers in charge were adamant and clear of not getting played for the sake of good diplomacy for the sake of good relations and not being submissive to the counterpart.

Wth! That's not his domain?? Dude, are you high? How is ministry of trade and IAS officers coming in between in the matters of UN votes?
Have you created your own parallel and delusional world where you've rewritten reality as you see fit?
I admire your courage to peddle such false narrative in open with such boldness. Kudos. You've changed the whole responsibility of ministries now.
You will invent anything to support your narrative now, won't ya? .

It's like criticising atal. But then praising him because it suits the narrative for criticising modi. You sound foolish.

Now even Indian govt thinks China is right lol. Trump started trade war with China and Biden continued it and it will be like that no matter who becomes the POTUS. That's nothing new.

They have been testing India and doing that since ages, nothing new. Should read about Iran India gas pipeline, who sabotaged it. Well I don't want to say much on that.

And you're saying we botched the relationship? Where are you getting at? I said what I said to show you trumps trade war against china and how china built resilience. And now against India. Since you agree that US is testing India, then how are you blaming India for botched relationship for standing strong? Shouldn't we build resilience which comes from domestic strength. A strength that ecosystem is trying to undermine right now as we speak.

Because China says the agreement was done with British India on McMahon line not India, if today BJP in govt signs an agreement with China, and tomorrow Congress is in power China will says the agreement was signed with BJP leaders not your government. What answer do you have?
Infact BJP also knows this cunningness, so Congress under guidance of one of their leaders ( I won't name) who was China expert started this new tactic to not let China give any chance or excuse, so they started signing party based agreement and test it. Chinese under CCP does not believe under democracy hence a new tactic was being tested.

People like you are too naive to understand these manuevres. BJP may use it for their political move but they also understand it. Other solution is then war and you are not ready.

Man, you really have invented your own reality. You are comparing british india vs Independent India to Congress govt vs BJP govt of Same India?

And you even further that new reality by coming up with a brilliant strategic manouver by that signing party based agreement was a checkmate ? How absurd does one have to be to defend congress.

So they wouldn't recognise any agreement with govt of India because of different party in power.. so one party signs and agreement/MoU with zero validity bypassing the state.. achieving ? Does this brilliant strategic manouver now need every single Indian political party to sign an MoU with CCP now? Do we make a special channel, so that any new party formed in India will have signed an MoU first with china? Rest of the world is so dumb that they do state-state agreement.
Who are you really?

People like you are too naive to understand these manuevres. BJP may use it for their political move but they also understand it. Other solution is then war and you are not ready.

Not just me man! Whole world is too naive to understand your brilliance.
As for your other solution.. the war.. UPA and congress were never ready. They neglected the armed forces.

Now we are ready. We might not win. But we won't loose either. And FYI.. in case you don't know.. we are a nuclear nation. Thanks to Atal ji decision which was ironically condemned by the liberal-left section in India.

Don't push your unreadiness on India.

No idea from where you got this and why are you writing this. You are again jumping the goalpost

I am jumping the goalpost when you are the one who is criticising FM for an apparent intelligence agency operative being caught in case of pannu?
Don't you read what you write?

How is anyone supposed to hold a discussion with such an individual!! It's like talking to a rock.

They intentionally waited for him to be the foreign minister and then pick up fight with India. Then Sri Lanka crisis, there after Maldives and now B'desh crisis.

I do not disagree that foreign policy has been very aggressive but it is a collective step not restricted to MEA.

And what did they get in return? A fight! A pushback! How is jaishankar responsible for chinese PLA agression all of a sudden? So border security is FM domain but multialignment push is trade ministers domain?
I take my words back.. even Pakistani ISPR will be ashamed of their mediocrity in front of you.

Srilanka, bangladesh, Maldives are a crisis handed by UPA govt on a platter to BJP when they failed to counter chinese influence in Srilanka. Srilanka crisis was decades in making, not two years. Even then, our policy got srilanka back from clutches of China. Back to its nuetral position.

For sake of votebank, they let islamic radicalism prosper in Bangladesh. And it's not about diplomacy but RA&W, CIA and ISI. Don't speak lightly of crises of you don't know the geopolitics behind it. It's more to do with CIA wanting access to Myanmar and ISI to eastern front of India. And thanks to Mamta being a safety net for ISI. Bangla crisis isn't about India or its diplomacy. It's about China vs USA in Myanmar.
Diplomacy is not about bending your back to Bangladesh or being coward since they went to china.. it's about sending a message through OP sindoor. If Pakistan's airspace can be breached.. Bangladesh politicians be carefull.
For all your talks about maneouvers.. you've got no idea about actual strategic manouver in national interest. Not party interest.

There is particular post in order of precedence from there onwards officers have to deliver as they are in decision making, only that is important. Something which is already known to foreign agencies on his postings, is not a confidential information.

And still you think diplomacy is domain of IAS officers while border security is domain of FM. Idiot

 

[Subgradewalker]

I've personally felt his public exposure has been on the higher side. There's rarely a week gone before you see a video of his uploaded on YT addressing some public seminar or some TT or doing a one on one interview or part of a group discussion & so on .

The problem with this is if you're in an adversarial position with global order of power distribution your PoV then gets highlighted which draws more attention to your position than necessary on controversial issues thus leaving you vulnerable to action in the worst case scenario.

I can't tell how much of this was an outreach to the aforementioned entities to put forward India's PoV on a whole host of matters more so for the extremely hostile position the western media has taken ever since the BJP government has come to power aided & abetted by desi coolies within & outside the country & how much of this was Jaishankar revelling in the limelight in the evening of his illustrious career.

Perhaps one overlapped with the other . These public engagements then are double edged swords. I'd like to see your views on the topic . @Jaymax

First time we got a FM who gave it back and exposed western hypocrisy and narrative.
Our public went euphoric!

 

[suryakiran]

I had this opinion since.... very long time now.

I believe selection of F404 and F414 were error of coincidence, failure of planning and stupidity of execution ie, incompetence. It is fixable, the due cost should be paid (in terms of moving to RD-33MK) and jets should be flying now.

Best part? If you want to export Tejas to a country that has good enough relation with US, you can always export F404 version.

Make a big inventory of RD-33MK parts that we import from Russia and assemble/make engines as well need locally at HAL. Pay whatever Putin is asking.

I don't think the dimensions of the RD-33MK make it feasible. Better option is to suck it up, pump money into our own engine development and testing. Once and for all get rid of this dependency.

 

[Speedster1]

Do you know the context of the conversation when Jaishankar compares US& Western hypocrisy vis a vis Pakistan?

He is exposing their hypocrisy when they demand that India dump Russia for them. Not hyphenating. Won't you be the first who will call it failure if India does so.
Diplomacy today is very much about presence in front of people and breaking western narrative in open, as much as it's about backroom discussions. In democracies like European.. they have been doing such things since colonial days.. to hide their hypocrisy from their own citizens and portray themselves as righteous.. that shores up the support for their actions. You need to break that convenient narrative and it happens through media and public. Not closed doors. When public knows the hypocrisy, there will be pressure on EU to get their own order in house first. This is 21st century. The technology led century. You can't do diplomacy on old principles. If the questions are asked in public, he will answer in public. And in IR strength is respected even in diplomacy.
I would urge you to see US, Russian and Chinese and their interactions with western ThinkTank. They will put your inferiority complex useless.

On that note: HE is the FM of India. A govt post. Not just an ambassador anymore. Your case would be valid only if he was this much in open when he was an ambassador. But as a minister in the govt of India.. he has the responsibility to rebuke western narrative.



Even Europe is now coming to terms with Jaishankar's view and weaning themselves off from China and USA and pursuing a multipolar world. Cause of the reality of ever changing world.

The new Trump administration has been in power for all of 6-7 months. Without sizing up cabinet members like Lutnick, Bessent, Navarro or folks like Lindsay Graham, Jaishankar's business as usual approach was bound to backfire.

I'm not advocating that we roll back our stance on key trade/foriegn policy issues, but public criticism esp on int'l forums is pointless, imo. This is best done behind closed doors. We don't have the same leverage China does to be adopting abrasive wolf warrior diplomacy.

Things have gotten to a point where we are having to make amends with China, months after fighting them in a proxy war. This is not a win, in my book. In Trump's first term, he had frequent run-ins with Macron and Trudeau. But today Macron is not shying away from meeting Trump in the WH to discuss matters face to face.

As EAM, Jaishankar needs to be measured with his words. Or all that political capital/goodwill India built up in DC over the years will be a waste.

 

[Ashwin]

I had this opinion since.... very long time now.

I believe selection of F404 and F414 were error of coincidence, failure of planning and stupidity of execution ie, incompetence. It is fixable, the due cost should be paid (in terms of moving to RD-33MK) and jets should be flying now.

Best part? If you want to export Tejas to a country that has good enough relation with US, you can always export F404 version.

Make a big inventory of RD-33MK parts that we import from Russia and assemble/make engines as well need locally at HAL. Pay whatever Putin is asking.

Let's forget the fact that Russians were not considered because they did not meet performance requirements.

If it was russian engines, The same people will come and compare performance of LCA with JF-17 and give us gyan how we should have chosen GE404.

As the saying goes, "In hindsight, everything is 20/20."

 

[Arctic Wolf]

I said what I said to show you trumps trade war against china and how china built resilience.

China's nominal GDP is nearly five times that of India's; it is the largest trading partner for almost all of America's trading partners, and it occupies a near-unimpeachable position in global manufacturing supply chains.
One should not adopt China's policies without replicating China's industrial or economic capacity.

Shouldn't we build resilience which comes from domestic strength. A strength that ecosystem is trying to undermine right now as we speak.

Domestic strength that hinges solely, or to a large extent, on the size of the domestic consumption market is hardly a leverage against the US, especially with a president who prioritizes symbolism, narcissism, and reaffirmation of US hegemony over corporate profits.

we are a nuclear nation.

So is North Korea. The matter at hand is largely an economic/industrial fight, and nuclear weapons don't guarantee economic victories.

Thanks to Atal ji decision which was ironically condemned by the liberal-left section in India.

Small point - India's nuclear program was greenlit by Indira Gandhi in the 1970s.

First time we got a FM who gave it back and exposed western hypocrisy and narrative.
Our public went euphoric!

Driving public euphoria isn't what diplomacy is meant for, though?

The point the others have made here is this - Trump cares a lot about his ego. If he makes a statement about something, don't dig your heels in. Let him have his victory lap; nothing will change for you. Deal with the Russians for all anyone cares, but don't go out of your way to rub it in his face. If he wants a Nobel, let him have it; just stay silent.

The criticism being made against Mr. Jaishankar here is that he's mimicking China's wolf warrior tactics while representing an economy/industrial complex that has a far greater reliance on the West for technology/investments than China's.

 

[Speedster1]

I've personally felt his public exposure has been on the higher side. There's rarely a week gone before you see a video of his uploaded on YT addressing some public seminar or some TT or doing a one on one interview or part of a group discussion & so on .

The problem with this is if you're in an adversarial position with global order of power distribution your PoV then gets highlighted which draws more attention to your position than necessary on controversial issues thus leaving you vulnerable to action in the worst case scenario.

I can't tell how much of this was an outreach to the aforementioned entities to put forward India's PoV on a whole host of matters more so for the extremely hostile position the western media has taken ever since the BJP government has come to power aided & abetted by desi coolies within & outside the country & how much of this was Jaishankar revelling in the limelight in the evening of his illustrious career.

Perhaps one overlapped with the other . These public engagements then are double edged swords. I'd like to see your views on the topic . @Jaymax

Our foriegn policy establishment seems to have read the tea leaves wrong. Just a few months ago, GoI fancied itself as being well insulated from Trump's tariffs. Now, here we were staring down the barrel of 75% tariffs. Our GSP trade benefits with the US have already been revoked. While our exposure (share of GDP) to the US export market is limited, they can squeeze us on critical military spares and support at will. This has now become a battle of egos, and it's all playing out in the public domain. Things are so bad that you'd think India (and not China) was the source of fentanyl being smuggled into the US!

Modi was right in not going to the WH for a photo-op with Munir, but we need to continue playing the balancing act which has been the cornerstone of our foriegn policy.

 

[Saaho]

I don't think the dimensions of the RD-33MK make it feasible. Better option is to suck it up, pump money into our own engine development and testing. Once and for all get rid of this dependency.

Everything is feasible. HAL is just not trying....

 

[_Anonymous_]

Our foriegn policy establishment seems to have read the tea leaves wrong. Just a few months ago, GoI fancied itself as being well insulated from Trump's tariffs. Now, here we were staring down the barrel of 75% tariffs. Our GSP trade benefits with the US have already been revoked. While our exposure (share of GDP) to the US export market is limited, they can squeeze us on critical military spares and support at will.

What you're referring to is hindsight. Everything is clear on hindsight. Everything was going great till a black swan event which happened to be Pahalgam occurred. What followed is known .

In such circumstances there are limits to which Trump & his megalomania can be accommodated. A good deal of what's transpiring now is what Dr Christine Fair put across in an interview in the immediate aftermath of Pahalgam which is the absence of specialists in South Asia affairs in Washington DC as a whole but this administration in particular.

Paul Kapur , who was nominated by this administration for a senior post in the State Department possibly as Asst Secretary of the State IIRC couldn't be confirmed by the Congress . No clue where has his confirmatory hearings reached. This was also a long standing issue with the Biden administration ad well where if you recall we spent close to two years or more without an ambassador here .

Another problem with Trump , observers have noticed is in his previous term , Republican leaders leaned on him to get party men or loyalists within his administration thereby acting as a restraint on his tendencies to go overboard .

That's no longer the case in his second term. He's packed his team with yes men . Check out his cabinet & their credentials . Except for Marco Rubio everybody else there are virtual unknowns or with dubious credentials especially the likes of Navarro who's on the extreme fringe on economic thought.

So there are genuine limits to what the MEA including Jaishankar could've accomplished in such circumstances .

This has now become a battle of egos, and it's all playing out in the public domain. Things are so bad that you'd think India (and not China) was the source of fentanyl being smuggled into the US!

Back channel talks are on going. Hopefully some comprise can be reached but the damage has been done. If the Biden administration was low key with their moves like entrapping Adani or the Pannu affair , Trump is more brazen about the whole thing. The net effect remains the same.

None of what's happening now comes as a huge surprise. Our relationship with the US was is & will remain transactional . It will continue to be close as long as both sides perceive a China threat . The moment the threat dissipates we'd face the brunt of it like China's doing now . The west especially the US isn't likely to make the same mistake twice which is to abet the rise of a power not exactly on friendly terms with it.

Till then our aim is to get the most out of them while not reciprocating much maintaining our autonomy. There were always limits to where this approach would take us . Right now we're discovering it at the worst possible time where apart from the usual threats in the form of a belligerent Paxtan & China , Bangladesh is unsettled as is Myanmar & now we've this kerfuffle with the US.

Modi was right in not going to the WH for a photo-op with Munir, but we need to continue playing the balancing act which has been the cornerstone of our foriegn policy.

We're trying to balance out interests while protecting our own but there would always be limits to which we could pursue our aims before we reached our moment of reckoning.

In any case the way Trump is going about his work he's managed to alienate both friend & foe . You can't go about dismantling long entrenched interests like he did with the government machinery in the form of DOGE & then alienate your own core support base which is the what his economic policies of high tariffs are doing.

If his long term aim was MAGA the first thing he should know is it's a long game. It's not something he can accomplish in one term . It needs 3-4 terms of sustained action. With this in mind you ought to be drawing a road map & co operate with your allies in doing so if your objective is the de industrialisation of China & re shoring / friend shoring across the world. Yet look at how has he gone about his business. He's actually alienated all his allies & friends & is now kissing Chinese a r s e .

And that's only a few aspects of his policies I've highlighted. If you look at him & his family's financial dealings , the less said the better especially w.r.t crypto currency & bit coins.

I'm of the firm belief this guy will be out of office within a year or two . Whether it's thru a bullet in the head or impeachment remains to be seen.

 

[Subgradewalker]

The new Trump administration has been in power for all of 6-7 months. Without sizing up cabinet members like Lutnick, Bessent, Navarro or folks like Lindsay Graham, Jaishankar's business as usual approach was bound to backfire.

I'm not advocating that we roll back our stance on key trade/foriegn policy issues, but public criticism esp on int'l forums is pointless, imo. This is best done behind closed doors. We don't have the same leverage China does to be adopting abrasive wolf warrior diplomacy.

Things have gotten to a point where we are having to make amends with China, months after fighting them in a proxy war. This is not a win, in my book. In Trump's first term, he had frequent run-ins with Macron and Trudeau. But today Macron is not shying away from meeting Trump in the WH to discuss matters face to face.

As EAM, Jaishankar needs to be measured with his words. Or all that political capital/goodwill India built up in DC over the years will be a waste.

1. Whole world failed to size up the cabinet. Cause it's not a cabinet. It's a group of like minded millionaires/billionaires who are having fun playing dealmakers.
Bessent, Navarro, Lutnick.. none of these are seasoned statesman. Most of them are either businessman with history of trade partnership with trump or guys like Navarro who have invented dubious methods to decide tarrif rates.
They literally tariffed Brazil cause their choice of brazilian leader was legally investigated on charges relating to election revolts like trump. That's not a policy you can size up because this ain't a policy.. it's a bunch of guys getting a hard on playing prez prez.
It's like Trump gushed about its first term of being prez to his friends that they all wanted in.

Most importantly, why do you think that it's India's fault? Are Americans made of some special breed that devoid them of any errors.

The USA made a diplomatic and a strategic error. Period. You wanna know what went on ...

Trump in his desperate need to be seen as a peacemaker, jumped the gun and claimed ceasefire like a boss. Do you think even white House was ready for that? Don't they know India's red lines? They do have brains but that's not where trump thinks from.

He shot himself on the foot in a moment of heat for domestic politics. If you notice, white House was scampering trying to blunt the damage by changing terminologies from brokered to helped to played a part..
And at first modi did try to let it be and have trump do his antics and instead of your allegations that there were public allegations from jaishankar towards USA.. it's false. India's stance was pragmatic and carefully worded.
Trump & RAGA then made sure that modi has no political space left for diplomatic and ambiguous stand.
They were banking on his silence but India flipped the narrative.

Modi rebuked trump on call. And made it clear it on record in parliament about non-interference. I don't know what RAGA & Trump got beside some pakistani votes and nomination. Do you realise US diplomatic error here? They got endorsed by a nation well famous for Osama bin Laden in and out of USA.
If that wasn't enough the second nation to endorse was paks ideological enemy Israel which is under heat for gaza war.
He even tried to pressure is through oil tarrifs.. and democrats are having a field day blasting trump since India-Russia-China got closer ( even if just to hedge the best). White House is running to media to put out the fire.

Things have gotten to a point where we are having to make amends with China, months after fighting them in a proxy war. This is not a win, in my book. In Trump's first term, he had frequent run-ins with Macron and Trudeau. But today Macron is not shying away from meeting Trump in the WH to discuss matters face to face.

Let me show you different side of it. China has to make amends with India despite India bombing it's "all weather ally" just months ago. You are framing it like we traded our sovereignity for their grace. No. It's in chinese interest to see the india-us relationship go down a notch. And in IR it's called hedging. Not amends.
On that note, on one side you complain about public nature of jaishankar's interviews and vie for backdoor diplomacy yet you think that India-China thaw happened all of a sudden. Why? Cause the thaw wasn't public in nature but backdoor diplomacy? The thaw started well before pahalgam, let alone tarrifs. What you're seeing now is limelight it's in due to geopolitical churn.

And as you said macron isn't saying away having talks with trump.. why don't you show same praise for India talking with China?
Heck, forget it! What makes you sure that Modi and Trump won't show bonhomie again when US-INDIA interest aligns at the appropriate time? Modi and Trump will probably have chai at Hyderabad house discussing China once republicans manage to do some damage control in domestic politics. Meanwhile, India can let Washington know that it's a partnership of choice not helplessness like Taiwan and Japan/S.Korea.

As EAM, Jaishankar needs to be measured with his words. Or all that political capital/goodwill India built up in DC over the years will be a waste.

List me instance of Jaishankar being undiplomatic vis a vis USA that will erode trust in USA. And again, whats with this inferiority complex? USA needs India as much as we need US. Who else they will place their best on against China? Pacific Islands with little military power and capacity? ASEAN? Who?

India. Because india is the only nation in south Asia which has shown both the will and capability to push back china, both in diplomacy and military.

So, stop with this anxiety and fear you've created in your minds. India-US relations including GE-404 isn't going anywhere.
Only tricky deal is 414 and given the timeline and history of HALs punctuality.. there's enough time for India ( if serious) to have indigineous engine by the time AMCA needs one.

Meanwhile Mk2, they will manage with either Mk1A, Russian engine, or 414 with less ToT.

 

[Subgradewalker]

China's nominal GDP is nearly five times that of India's; it is the largest trading partner for almost all of America's trading partners, and it occupies a near-unimpeachable position in global manufacturing supply chains.
One should not adopt China's policies without replicating China's industrial or economic capacity.

Domestic strength that hinges solely, or to a large extent, on the size of the domestic consumption market is hardly a leverage against the US, especially with a president who prioritizes symbolism, narcissism, and reaffirmation of US hegemony over corporate profits.

So is North Korea. The matter at hand is largely an economic/industrial fight, and nuclear weapons don't guarantee economic victories.


Small point - India's nuclear program was greenlit by Indira Gandhi in the 1970s.

Driving public euphoria isn't what diplomacy is meant for, though?

The point the others have made here is this - Trump cares a lot about his ego. If he makes a statement about something, don't dig your heels in. Let him have his victory lap; nothing will change for you. Deal with the Russians for all anyone cares, but don't go out of your way to rub it in his face. If he wants a Nobel, let him have it; just stay silent.

The criticism being made against Mr. Jaishankar here is that he's mimicking China's wolf warrior tactics while representing an economy/industrial complex that has a far greater reliance on the West for technology/investments than China's.

Please do not cherry pick sentences from long response and frame them out of context. But still, you've raised very valid and important points that needs to be discussed cause they often aren't.

China's nominal GDP is nearly five times that of India's; it is the largest trading partner for almost all of America's trading partners, and it occupies a near-unimpeachable position in global manufacturing supply chains.
One should not adopt China's policies without replicating China's industrial or economic capacity

Please read the whole para that you're replying to. Nowhere did I say that we need to adopt chinese policies vis a vis America. I used chinese vs trump 1.0 as an example to stress the need and importance of building resilience. That doesn't mean having a fallout with US or behaving like them.
It means having an economy and military that is not critically dependent on Washington or russia or EU. It doesn't mean stopping trades. It means "building" manufacturing capacities in essential sectors. That is what everyone is doing. We started it with make in india, but now it's time for MII2.0, faster, more fearless in investing (R&D) , reforms etc.
You wont deny it's importance, I hope. We have come far in our capabilities decade by decade.. we will continue.

Domestic strength that hinges solely, or to a large extent, on the size of the domestic consumption market is hardly a leverage against the US, especially with a president who prioritizes symbolism, narcissism, and reaffirmation of US hegemony over corporate profits.

Again, I would urge you not to change the words. I said resilience, not leverage. We do have leverage over them already ( ally vis a vis China, the market for Big Tech etc) ..it's just that, they got more leverage on US (technology of big tech etc) , then we have on them. With resilience, you deny/reduce the leverage USA has right now over us. Leading to balance in the partnership.

And one builds resilience according to strengths. We need to tap into our strength.. workforce, talent, youth, the readiness to adopt new tech, market, domestic consumption and through them reduce our weakness ( low R&D, low IP creation, low manufacturing, unskilled workforce etc) . I don't know what the future holds.. but things have picked up pace in last 6-7 years and with our support and prudence.. things can be even faster.

—So, next time you see a port being built, 5G infra being invested in, private industrialist aligning their corporate interest with national interest.. celebrate it. And voice out against who undermines India (internal or external) . Meanwhile, take advantages of plethora of finance schemes, subsidies out there if you wish to start something. —

So is North Korea. The matter at hand is largely an economic/industrial fight, and nuclear weapons don't guarantee economic victories.

You literally took 5 words out of a long sentence and an even longer paragraph and framed it out of context. At least understand the sentence and why i stated our nuclear status in my response.

Small point - India's nuclear program was greenlit by Indira Gandhi in the 1970s.

Yup. I know. Operation Buddha. And yet the Sonia led left-liberal ecosystem admonished APJ Abdul Kalam and even questioned the need of nuclear weapons during UPA govt tenure.

Driving public euphoria isn't what diplomacy is meant for, though?

You have taken my response to a different conversation and used it in the context of another response for different conversation. That's not how it works. Don't mislead the discussion. One is context public led response to youtube bytes. Another is geopolitics.

The point the others have made here is this - Trump cares a lot about his ego. If he makes a statement about something, don't dig your heels in. Let him have his victory lap; nothing will change for you. Deal with the Russians for all anyone cares, but don't go out of your way to rub it in his face. If he wants a Nobel, let him have it; just stay silent.

The criticism being made against Mr. Jaishankar here is that he's mimicking China's wolf warrior tactics while representing an economy/industrial complex that has a far greater reliance on the West for technology/investments than China's.

I was waiting to come to this part.
Tell me, who was pouncing on Modi and Jaishankar to call trump a liar in parliament when both were showing diplomatic prudence by letting trump get over his antics?
Why is onus on them, but not on the cabal that baited modi to either call out trumps lie or undermine India's strategic position in the world? When the opposition baits you and you remain silent.. the world will think that it's easy to bend India with trump like antics. So, why don't you ask this question to the people who undermined the interest of Indian economy, military and people for their selfish goals? Or are they not responsible for India? If you noticed, trumps tantrum via tarrif came a day or two later after Modi's speech in Lok Sabha. And everyone noticed the glee on their faces when it happened and celebrated that trump called indian economy as dead.
So, you're blaming the wrong guys. Go ask the one responsible to not leaving flexibility needed to manouver the approach you proposed.

Now, what govt has done if flipped the narrative. Govt is standing strong against bullying and hedging it's best.
I won't comment on the extent of reforms.. but be ready to see some substantial policy reforms if US continues to maintain this posture and arm twists.

The criticism is misguided cause jaishankar is vocal when it comes to EU. He is very worded with USA. Because both are different and need different approach.
EU isn't USA and jaishankar reminded them. Then again, of the question are asked in public, and India is accused for its autonomy then its rightful duty of FM to show them the mirror.
It's not wolf warrior. It's called having a backbone.
And mind you, EU is a bloc, not a country. A bloc where India has its own partners and partnership outside the pov of EU as bloc.

EU isn't a technology leader like USA nor has it invested in India while they have loved to boss us around. They themselves are dependent on Chinese so much that their economies will basically crash if they went against China fully. And do you know, who they need to not let that happen? India. But for that, they need to come out of colonial mindset of superiority and show mutual respect. And they wouldn't have done it if not for India's stand and rebuttals.
Don't let youtube shorts fool you regarding the diplomacy our MEA has done with European nations since 2020. It's not just interviews of FM... But whole MEA that works.

And it's not just the europe that needs to come out of colonial mindset. It's also the Indians who needs to come out of colonial mindset and this inferiority complex we have against white color. Grow a spine. Stop looking for validation. Their economy is in dire straits and domestic politics even direr.

 

[screambowl]

And still you think diplomacy is domain of IAS officers while border security is domain of FM. Idiot

Niti Ayog influences Indian diplomacy. G20 summit was handled by an IAS not an IFS guy. IAS are more diplomatic due to the vast experience they gain from districts.

You can replace an IFS officer by an IAS officer or to a fact even IPS or IRS officer but you can't replace any of them with an IFS officer. First they don't wish do get deputed in ministries under any Minister, secondly when they are they come for only short period for training, thirdly they are not fit. This is one of the reason why previously all NSA came from IFS, but Modi govt stopped it and braught some on from intel background
( IPS). IFS don't fit any where apart from MEA.

This how government functions.

Man, you really have invented your own reality. You are comparing british india vs Independent India to Congress govt vs BJP govt of Same India?

You really do not know what is the issue with India and China or do you know? I have not invented any of my own reality. This is how it is. China is constantly saying Indian govt was not a part of this arrangement, because it was British India that time, when the line between India and Tobet was drawn by gora sahab. This is the whole fuzz.

Why do you think most of the European nations haven't abolished their Monarchies except for France? It is because the treaties are still in force which were signed 300 years ago.

You really need to brush up your knowledge on IR.

The McMahon line was negotiated between the British and Tibet ..

Read more at:
China does not accept the McMahon line agreed on by Britain & Tibet | India News - Times of India

And what did they get in return? A fight! A pushback! How is jaishankar responsible for chinese PLA agression all of a sudden? So border security is FM domain but multialignment push is trade ministers domain?
I take my words back.. even Pakistani ISPR will be ashamed of their mediocrity in front of you.

No they are constantly reminding India that McMahon is illegitimate because Britishers are now gone and there is a new government in India.

I only showed you a pattern that S Jaishanker become the Foreign Minister, Galwan happens, then Sri Lanka goes into Chinese lap, then Maldieves, Bangladesh crisis occur, and now Indo US diplomatic crisis. After that during Op Sindoor you suddenly call off the operation and people like Samir Saran say that carrying on was not neccesary, who is Samir Saran? Relaince Man in ORF influencing Indian foreign policy.

One should really ask S Jaishanker is he working for Indian government or Reliance.

Bangla crisis isn't about India or its diplomacy. It's about China vs USA in Myanmar.

If Bangladesh crisis has become China vs USA in Mayanmar then Indians are at fault because they allowed others to have massive influence in a sate which was once Indian territory.
Stop this BS arguement.

 

[Interested]

China's nominal GDP is nearly five times that of India's; it is the largest trading partner for almost all of America's trading partners, and it occupies a near-unimpeachable position in global manufacturing supply chains.
One should not adopt China's policies without replicating China's industrial or economic capacity.

Domestic strength that hinges solely, or to a large extent, on the size of the domestic consumption market is hardly a leverage against the US, especially with a president who prioritizes symbolism, narcissism, and reaffirmation of US hegemony over corporate profits.

So is North Korea. The matter at hand is largely an economic/industrial fight, and nuclear weapons don't guarantee economic victories.


Small point - India's nuclear program was greenlit by Indira Gandhi in the 1970s.

Driving public euphoria isn't what diplomacy is meant for, though?

The point the others have made here is this - Trump cares a lot about his ego. If he makes a statement about something, don't dig your heels in. Let him have his victory lap; nothing will change for you. Deal with the Russians for all anyone cares, but don't go out of your way to rub it in his face. If he wants a Nobel, let him have it; just stay silent.

The criticism being made against Mr. Jaishankar here is that he's mimicking China's wolf warrior tactics while representing an economy/industrial complex that has a far greater reliance on the West for technology/investments than China's.

Geez ... better than bowing down to Trump is to take the losses for 3 years and start fresh with the next guy . Indian economy won't collapse due to the 50% American tariffs . Better to have some self respect that be like the Europeans , bowing and scrapping before Trump like he is William the Conqueror .