MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

No 4.5 gen aircraft can plausibly engage modern air defense without losses. Note Pakistan hardly counts as modern air defense, but neither did Ukraine and Russia with many advanced aircraft failed at air superiority.

We see that in Ukraine, we see it in Pakistan. The solution is F-35. Been saying it for a decade now on the old forum as well.

J-20's are popping off the production facility at numbers of 100+

Can India afford to wait?

Rafale quite comfortably flew over Skardu for 40 minutes and left. The PAF had no clue, and their were at their highest alert level.

And the Rafale we have was developed in 2018, while aiming to bulk buy the Rafale being introduced in 2030.

I think we are good.

We have also bought 26 Rafale Ms for the navy, the 2024 version, and plan to buy 40 more for the IAF before the bulk buy of 114.

 

[zinswinsin]

Rafale quite comfortably flew over Skardu for 40 minutes and left. The PAF had no clue, and their were at their highest alert level.

And the Rafale we have was developed in 2018, while aiming to bulk buy the Rafale being introduced in 2030.

I think we are good.

We have also bought 26 Rafale Ms for the navy, the 2024 version, and plan to buy 40 more for the IAF before the bulk buy of 114.

We'll see. The details should reveal themselves in the coming weeks/months. The J-10C is no joke.

F-16 block 70 equivalent / F-15EX

Even if the Rafale is better, it's just marginally better. What about the J-20C? The J-35A?

I'm glad the Rafale won the naval contract. SuperHornet doesn't really offer much.

 

[Lolwa]

We'll see. The details should reveal themselves in the coming weeks/months. The J-10C is no joke.

F-16 block 70 equivalent / F-15EX

Even if the Rafale is better, it's just marginally better. What about the J-20C? The J-35A?

I'm glad the Rafale won the naval contract. SuperHornet doesn't really offer much.

The j-10C has a bigger radar 1200 trms. Could have an effect. But I highly doubt the rafale was shotdown. From the looks of it it's either a
A) A Bird strike
B) Human failure
C) Engine failure
D) Technical failure

The rafale would have evaded it considering the rafale crashed 20km north of the Air force station(the grey spot). Even if we take into account their would be either some pl-15 debris or something. It's in outer NEZ range. Possible for the j-10C but still quite far.

 

[randomradio]

We'll see. The details should reveal themselves in the coming weeks/months. The J-10C is no joke.

F-16 block 70 equivalent / F-15EX

Even if the Rafale is better, it's just marginally better. What about the J-20C? The J-35A?

I'm glad the Rafale won the naval contract. SuperHornet doesn't really offer much.

J-10C, F-16 B70, and F-15EX are roughly around the same capability. The radar could be better on the J-10C owing to GaN, especially if it's all digital. The missile is better than the AMRAAM class too, so its only competitor will be the AIM-260.

Rafale is leagues better than all 3, and by a significant margin.

For example, the SH's radar is really good, so they took the older APG-63v3, added the APG-79's backend to it and called it APG-82, and that's the F-15EX's radar. So it's not even on the same level as the SH B3. B70 is somewhat better, but smaller. J-10C compensates with GaN.

Then comes Rafale's sensor fusion and defensive suite which are fully integrated with its radar and weapons systems. It's pretty much on part with the F-35. The Rafale F4 also comes with hardware that's half a generation ahead of the SH, like a digital radar, plus a bunch of hardware that does not exist on the Teens, like IRST and a camera. The MICA IR is slaved to MAWS, so its capable of automatically firing missiles at aircraft and other missiles when they get into a 15 km bubble. Then there's a whole bunch of passive networking and localization capabilities missing on the Teens.

And it can supercruise, climb faster, turn faster than any other Teen. Its maintenance is also significant superior due to its modular construction. It's built like a Lego, so you can take away the problematic parts and replace them with functioning ones. It only requires 8 hours on the ground versus the F-16's 20 hours.

You can say the Teens have a 4th gen airframe and engine and early 5th gen avionics (analog antennas, few receivers), but Rafale F4 has a 4.5th gen airframe and engine and later 5th gen avionics (digital antennas, multiple receivers). The Rafale F3R we are operating is similar to the Teens in terms of avionics, but still comes with better performance, IRST, and other survivability features like a sensor-fused towed decoy, apart from some stealth.

When the F5 comes in, it's gonna be a whole different beast. New engine, new unified radar/EW/comm system, MUM-T. It improves the airframe and comes with early 6th gen avionics along with drone control. For example, all other aircraft today have federated hardware and sensor fusion via software. But F5 will come with fully fused hardware and software, so all emitter systems will function as a single system. Even processing will be done at the TRM level. And it will give the Rafale full 360 deg radar capability.

French weapons used to be ahead, but the US has caught up now, even surpassed the French in long range systems.

Anyway, if you are planning to use the Rafale as a benchmark for your Teens, you will have to lower the bar. If the Rafale performs poorly, then the Teens are in even greater trouble.

 

[zinswinsin]

J-10C, F-16 B70, and F-15EX are roughly around the same capability. The radar could be better on the J-10C owing to GaN, especially if it's all digital. The missile is better than the AMRAAM class too, so its only competitor will be the AIM-260.

Rafale is leagues better than all 3, and by a significant margin.

For example, the SH's radar is really good, so they took the older APG-63v3, added the APG-79's backend to it and called it APG-82, and that's the F-15EX's radar. So it's not even on the same level as the SH B3. B70 is somewhat better, but smaller. J-10C compensates with GaN.

Then comes Rafale's sensor fusion and defensive suite which are fully integrated with its radar and weapons systems. It's pretty much on part with the F-35. The Rafale F4 also comes with hardware that's half a generation ahead of the SH, like a digital radar, plus a bunch of hardware that does not exist on the Teens, like IRST and a camera. The MICA IR is slaved to MAWS, so its capable of automatically firing missiles at aircraft and other missiles when they get into a 15 km bubble. Then there's a whole bunch of passive networking and localization capabilities missing on the Teens.

And it can supercruise, climb faster, turn faster than any other Teen. Its maintenance is also significant superior due to its modular construction. It's built like a Lego, so you can take away the problematic parts and replace them with functioning ones. It only requires 8 hours on the ground versus the F-16's 20 hours.

You can say the Teens have a 4th gen airframe and engine and early 5th gen avionics (analog antennas, few receivers), but Rafale F4 has a 4.5th gen airframe and engine and later 5th gen avionics (digital antennas, multiple receivers). The Rafale F3R we are operating is similar to the Teens in terms of avionics, but still comes with better performance, IRST, and other survivability features like a sensor-fused towed decoy, apart from some stealth.

When the F5 comes in, it's gonna be a whole different beast. New engine, new unified radar/EW/comm system, MUM-T. It improves the airframe and comes with early 6th gen avionics along with drone control. For example, all other aircraft today have federated hardware and sensor fusion via software. But F5 will come with fully fused hardware and software, so all emitter systems will function as a single system. Even processing will be done at the TRM level. And it will give the Rafale full 360 deg radar capability.

French weapons used to be ahead, but the US has caught up now, even surpassed the French in long range systems.

Anyway, if you are planning to use the Rafale as a benchmark for your Teens, you will have to lower the bar. If the Rafale performs poorly, then the Teens are in even greater trouble.

Yes, I'm quite concerned about the large number of 4th gen fighters in the USAF.

 

[Innominate]

Yes, I'm quite concerned about the large number of 4th gen fighters in the USAF.

I'm not. We're in a different league and use F-35's, F-22's, Growlers and kill web network and other assets together.

Nope. Rafale penetrated highly contested/defended Pak airspace and destroyed all its targets and *almost* returned unscathed(not sure about Bhatinda crash). Neither Typhoon or F-15 EX could have done that.

Our best Air-to-air fighter is MKI and it's by far superior to both Typhoon and F-15EX. Even AMCA won't replace MKI. It'll be replaced by AHCA(official project now). Rafale is basically for day 1 penetration missions. Currently it's our best air-to-air fighter because of AESA radar + Meteor. Once MKI comes online with Virupaksha and Gandiva, it'll retake its mantel.

Typhoon & F-15 EX don't fit in our airforce structure. It's going to be AMCA + LCA+ MKI + Rafale with only exception being Su-57.

That's a bold claim you make of what Rafale did without any source especially since more than one IAF fighter got shot down including a Rafale.

 

[randomradio]

Yes, I'm quite concerned about the large number of 4th gen fighters in the USAF.

The saving grace is the Chinese too have a majority fleet of 4th gens. And they do not have an answer to the B-21, while the USAF has an answer to everything they have.

In 2 more years the F-35 will get TR-3 and early B4 capabilities, so your tactical fleet will be somewhat ready as well. So will Japan's F-35 fleet. And Taiwan is expected to be ready by the end of 2026, so any more time beyond that is a bonus for them.

While the Chinese were in the lead for many years since 2016 with their SGIIN, the US has retaken the C4ISR lead. And the US has firmly established an EW lead too. China will take the CW lead by 2027 with their quantum satellites by establishing a global network.

China is expected to be ready by later 2027 to early 2028. So election time war for the US.

 

[Lolwa]

I'm not. We're in a different league and use F-35's, F-22's, Growlers and kill web network and other assets together.

That's a bold claim you make of what Rafale did without any source especially since more than one IAF fighter got shot down including a Rafale.

All of our aircrafts were shotdown only after we entered our airspace and they lobbed atleast 20+ pl-15's in desperation. A single su-30mki dodged around 8 pl-15's. The rafales and Mirages were 23 minutes inside Pakistani airspace. They did not get detected.
These are claims that have been going around.

 

[zinswinsin]

I'm not. We're in a different league and use F-35's, F-22's, Growlers and kill web network and other assets together.

China isn't Pakistan. China is also in a different league.

All of our aircrafts were shotdown only after we entered our airspace and they lobbed atleast 20+ pl-15's in desperation. A single su-30mki dodged around 8 pl-15's. The rafales and Mirages were 23 minutes inside Pakistani airspace. They did not get detected.
These are claims that have been going around.

It is very concerning the location of the PL-15 and Rafale. 80km from the LOC.

 

[zinswinsin]

The saving grace is the Chinese too have a majority fleet of 4th gens. And they do not have an answer to the B-21, while the USAF has an answer to everything they have.

In 2 more years the F-35 will get TR-3 and early B4 capabilities, so your tactical fleet will be somewhat ready as well. So will Japan's F-35 fleet. And Taiwan is expected to be ready by the end of 2026, so any more time beyond that is a bonus for them.

While the Chinese were in the lead for many years since 2016 with their SGIIN, the US has retaken the C4ISR lead. And the US has firmly established an EW lead too. China will take the CW lead by 2027 with their quantum satellites by establishing a global network.

China is expected to be ready by later 2027 to early 2028. So election time war for the US.

I wish I could be as confident as you. My friend is working on the latest EW in America. I'll buy him a coffee next time I see him.

 

[randomradio]

I'm not. We're in a different league and use F-35's, F-22's, Growlers and kill web network and other assets together.

Not in 2025, but definitely by 2027.

Need TR-3 in 2026 along with new radar and EW antennas, early B4 software the same year, and full early B4 clearance and sufficient numbers upgraded by 2027.

In 2028, the only real flaw the F-35 will have is its underpowered engine, which will only be addressed in 2029.

All dates are tentative.

 

[zinswinsin]

Not in 2025, but definitely by 2027.

Need TR-3 in 2026 along with new radar and EW antennas, early B4 software the same year, and full early B4 clearance and sufficient numbers upgraded by 2027.

In 2028, the only real flaw the F-35 will have is its underpowered engine, which will only be addressed in 2029.

All dates are tentative.

Of course these dates are pushed back a decade already, but yeah....

We really need pic here.

Where the Frenchman at.

 

[randomradio]

I wish I could be as confident as you. My friend is working on the latest EW in America. I'll buy him a coffee next time I see him.

The Chinese are not as advanced as you think. They still have quite a ways to go, another decade at least. They are making up for the difference with physical characteristics like performance and next-gen hardware. A decade from now it's time to worry.

Buy your friend expensive champagne for all the work his people have put into cognitive EW.

 

[zinswinsin]

The Chinese are not as advanced as you think. They still have quite a ways to go, another decade at least. They are making up for the difference with physical characteristics like performance and next-gen hardware. A decade from now it's time to worry.

Buy your friend expensive champagne for all the work his people have put into cognitive EW.

Yes, he's obviously working on cognitive EW. Seconds instead of weeks for EW response.



See, I'm making my contribution lmao.

 

[randomradio]

Of course these dates are pushed back a decade already, but yeah....

We really need pic here.

Where the Frenchman at.

As long as it's on time for the fight, it's good enough.

 

[Rajput Lion]

As long as it's on time for the fight, it's good enough.

Few squadrons of F-35 Block 4(with ECU) and Su-57M are definitely needed to take on PLAAF.

 

[Hydra]

Nope. Rafale penetrated highly contested/defended Pak airspace and destroyed all its targets and *almost* returned unscathed(not sure about Bhatinda crash). Neither Typhoon or F-15 EX could have done that.

Our best Air-to-air fighter is MKI and it's by far superior to both Typhoon and F-15EX. Even AMCA won't replace MKI. It'll be replaced by AHCA(official project now). Rafale is basically for day 1 penetration missions. Currently it's our best air-to-air fighter because of AESA radar + Meteor. Once MKI comes online with Virupaksha and Gandiva, it'll retake its mantel.

Typhoon & F-15 EX don't fit in our airforce structure. It's going to be AMCA + LCA+ MKI + Rafale with only exception being Su-57.

MKI is superior to F1EX, that's a joke of the day brings smile in these tensed time.

 

[Hydra]

The Chinese are not as advanced as you think. They still have quite a ways to go, another decade at least. They are making up for the difference with physical characteristics like performance and next-gen hardware. A decade from now it's time to worry.

Buy your friend expensive champagne for all the work his people have put into cognitive EW.

U think that Rafale is crashed (I too),and that's way too far away from border. So chinese maal is potent,or else they cannot target an aircraft like Rafale that much far.

 

[zinswinsin]

U think that Rafale is crashed (I too),and that's way too far away from border. So chinese maal is potent,or else they cannot target an aircraft like Rafale that much far.

I think it's a clear shoot down mate. Chinese gear is entirely comparable to American. Or better.

 

[Ryuuma8]

J-10C, F-16 B70, and F-15EX are roughly around the same capability. The radar could be better on the J-10C owing to GaN, especially if it's all digital. The missile is better than the AMRAAM class too, so its only competitor will be the AIM-260.

Rafale is leagues better than all 3, and by a significant margin.

For example, the SH's radar is really good, so they took the older APG-63v3, added the APG-79's backend to it and called it APG-82, and that's the F-15EX's radar. So it's not even on the same level as the SH B3. B70 is somewhat better, but smaller. J-10C compensates with GaN.

Then comes Rafale's sensor fusion and defensive suite which are fully integrated with its radar and weapons systems. It's pretty much on part with the F-35. The Rafale F4 also comes with hardware that's half a generation ahead of the SH, like a digital radar, plus a bunch of hardware that does not exist on the Teens, like IRST and a camera. The MICA IR is slaved to MAWS, so its capable of automatically firing missiles at aircraft and other missiles when they get into a 15 km bubble. Then there's a whole bunch of passive networking and localization capabilities missing on the Teens.

And it can supercruise, climb faster, turn faster than any other Teen. Its maintenance is also significant superior due to its modular construction. It's built like a Lego, so you can take away the problematic parts and replace them with functioning ones. It only requires 8 hours on the ground versus the F-16's 20 hours.

You can say the Teens have a 4th gen airframe and engine and early 5th gen avionics (analog antennas, few receivers), but Rafale F4 has a 4.5th gen airframe and engine and later 5th gen avionics (digital antennas, multiple receivers). The Rafale F3R we are operating is similar to the Teens in terms of avionics, but still comes with better performance, IRST, and other survivability features like a sensor-fused towed decoy, apart from some stealth.

When the F5 comes in, it's gonna be a whole different beast. New engine, new unified radar/EW/comm system, MUM-T. It improves the airframe and comes with early 6th gen avionics along with drone control. For example, all other aircraft today have federated hardware and sensor fusion via software. But F5 will come with fully fused hardware and software, so all emitter systems will function as a single system. Even processing will be done at the TRM level. And it will give the Rafale full 360 deg radar capability.

French weapons used to be ahead, but the US has caught up now, even surpassed the French in long range systems.

Anyway, if you are planning to use the Rafale as a benchmark for your Teens, you will have to lower the bar. If the Rafale performs poorly, then the Teens are in even greater trouble.

I kinda disagree, it's quite disrespectful to equate the capabilities of the F-15EX with the J-10C & Viper. If the F-15EX were that bad, Poland & Israel, which notably already have access to the F-35, wouldn't be buying it. And regarding radar, using GaN doesn't always mean it's better. If we use this logic, does it mean the PhantomStrike radar on the FA-50 is better than the APG-81 or RBE2 radar?

The most important thing is its overall power output, and the radar on the F-15EX is almost twice as powerful as those on the J-10C, Viper, or SHB3.

And EPAWSS is not a joke, even in the latest Pentagon release, the F-15EX is said to be effective in facing 5th generation fighter threats.

In my opinion, based on ranking, it's F-15EX > Rafale F4 > SHB3 > Viper > J-10C.