MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

Expediting tejas mk2 + adding extra orders for su30 2 sqn & mk1a 2 sqn extra each as interim measure. Maybe consider 2nd hand options.
We lost several jets in last 12 months alone but no plans yet to even filling those numbers and even the planned 12 jet acquisition programs are shelved. All this at a time when a lot of nations are buying weapons. I get it GOI is happy that China has heat in its eastern shore so they might not suddenly attack in our northeast, but why stop planned acquisitions just because those are from Russia, just to prove we do not want war?

What you're suggesting is what we've suggested in addition to 350 MKIs upgraded to Super Sukhoi stds , 80 additional Mk-1a , 35 additional MiG-29 upgraded to UPG standards , total 90 Rafales & 2-3 squadrons of Su-57M . Check out the India China war gaming thread.

Forget about the Mk-2 . Even if they arrive by 2028 they'd be of no use by 2030 even if we get a squadron or 2 .

Finally , the GoI isn't pretending there's going to be peace & it's not as if they're not going in for more numbers just to prove they've peaceful intentions. Where did you get all this from ? Even RST's stories doesn't get this fantastic 8 pm or otherwise .

The GoI is convinced that at the most there's going to be a border war . They're getting similar advice from the services. This is something they believe they can handle by upgrading infrastructure & up gunning their current capabilities to a very limited extent .

I & a few others are of the view that the person who'd have the most to lose by a defeat is the person who'd be ordering this operation namely Xi Jinping. Since he's removed all buffers in between , all victories are credited to him & him alone . Ditto for his defeats.

Which in his case means certain deaths given the way he's purged his enemies & rivals . This translates to mean he can't afford to lose which means he escalates rather than lose . That puts us all in uncharted waters which our preparations as of now doesn't extend to cover . That's the dilemma we face & which our top brass in the armed forces & the GoI seem oblivious of , is our impression.

 

[randomradio]

IAF has been shouting on mrfa for the whole of current ACM tenure. But govt on other hand has been oddly silent on the whole situation, suggesting import is not their preference, and it will be done via G2G route only for a much smaller number than required. This much is certain by now. Their focus is on 2024 election probably.

The IAF screwed up the first time by not pushing for more M2000s via MRCA 20 years ago. The MMRCA was unaffordable even back then.

MRFA is crucial for this time though.

Gov.

IAF is still fixed on MRFA/Rafale. They even forced the government to opt out of FGFA because of their love of MRFA/Rafale. That too despite high level committee headed by AM S. Varthman gave a go ahead to the project. This was way back in 2017, when J-20 was just entering active service. It was complete lack of foresight by IAF which led us towards currently getting outgunned by the Chinese VLO fighters.

Just read this article to know IAF's viewpoint:





Link of full article: IAF not in favour of acquiring Russian 5th gen jets, keen on DRDO Make in India project instead

Because of IAF's love...nay...obsession over MRFA/Rafale we are completely outclassed by the Chinese. Only plane that can give us parity or dominance against J-20 is Su-57M. MKI Upgrade and Rafale are only going to be effective to a level beyond which we shall need our own VLO fighters.

FGFA was killed due to political reasons. Probably Americans helped end matters via other means, like dealing with Pakistan.

 

[randomradio]

^^ Forgot to mention about the mandatory full ToT they are demanding, I am not sure but likely its the GOI side insisting & not the user. This could be a clever ploy that works both ways to ruin any chance of MRFA succeeding. Nobody will be doing that full ToT, so that pushes the MRFA to fail, and there the Govt side can say look we tried but without full ToT we won't sign off 114 jets bill. The best we can allow is G2G 1-2 squadron deal, which was our intention from the beginning anyway. What IAF can do in that case except for making noise in vain, which they are doing frequently? Ultimately its the Govt unwillingness to part with forex without much ToT gain is the reason MRFA won't progress beyond 26-36 jets deal. Nobody except the Rus will let us make modern jets locally.

AFAIK, MRFA is awaiting govt clearance and is expected in June. Although we could see delays due to the war. It's a problem for India to send an RFP to the Russians at this time.

ToT is a pretty standard 50%, both Americans and French have promised more than that. I believe the French have promised 70%.

 

[randomradio]

Govt is also a part of the problem. A simpler deal with manufacturing in France but whole Repair, overhaul & upgrade capability in India along with 100% spares parts localisation should have been the goal. That would have allowed the deal to be signed in 2014-15 itself.

We would have had 126 Rafales in our inventory now.

But people want to recreate the Su30MKI experience with French.

A Su30MKI from Irkut costs less than 45 million USD. Same from HAL costs double.

Just think what an assembled Rafale will cost in India. And that is the biggest hurdle for Finance approval.

That's meaningless. We need production in India, and it is for the war effort. It has nothing to do with economics.

We need the ability to make modifications and upgrades on our own, without FOEM involvement, for the purpose of secrecy. And we also need as much control as possible to ensure the war effort goes smoothly, not just the first war, but also successive wars that will be fought. For example, if there's a limited Sino-India war this year, we could go to war again in a few years which could be less limited, and so on. So, we need to make quick modifications to cater to weaknesses in the jet so we are ready to fight with new capabilities very quickly. This is not possible without ToT. We also need ToT to add our own exotic tech in the jets with limited to no FOEM knowledge.

What you said works only for stopgap measures. We wouldn't have had any issues integrating the Paveway bombs on the M2000 in 1999 had the production deal gone ahead.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

That's meaningless. We need production in India, and it is for the war effort. It has nothing to do with economics.

We need the ability to make modifications and upgrades on our own, without FOEM involvement, for the purpose of secrecy. And we also need as much control as possible to ensure the war effort goes smoothly, not just the first war, but also successive wars that will be fought. For example, if there's a limited Sino-India war this year, we could go to war again in a few years which could be less limited, and so on. So, we need to make quick modifications to cater to weaknesses in the jet so we are ready to fight with new capabilities very quickly. This is not possible without ToT. We also need ToT to add our own exotic tech in the jets with limited to no FOEM knowledge.

What you said works only for stopgap measures. We wouldn't have had any issues integrating the Paveway bombs on the M2000 in 1999 had the production deal gone ahead.

Then the reality is that MRFA won't happen. Finance ministry is not signing on 200 million USD fly away cost on a Rafale while countries are importing F35 at less than 100 million USD.

I won't argue. I will just see people try to do Rafale deal the way Su30MKI thing happened and fail.

Su30MKI happened because of Russia's necessity. People don't realise the amount of technology transferred to HAL which currently lies unused.

That level of ToT will not happen.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

And for war effort, we can always ensure from the start that spares production is localised & integration of Indian weapons is allowed.

 

[Optimist]

Then the reality is that MRFA won't happen. Finance ministry is not signing on 200 million USD fly away cost on a Rafale while countries are importing F35 at less than 100 million USD.

What makes you think this? They chose the Rafale over the much cheaper and better Super Hornet before.

 

[randomradio]

Then the reality is that MRFA won't happen. Finance ministry is not signing on 200 million USD fly away cost on a Rafale while countries are importing F35 at less than 100 million USD.

Both cost roughly the same. While the F-35 is potentially cheaper, it is not in conflict with the Rafale in the IAF in any case. There's room for both. The F-35 will also get a whole lot more expensive over time with the addition of new tech. In the long run, the Rafale will be cheaper as it's a smaller jet.

And ToT is unlikely for the F-35, so it's a stopgap at best.

I won't argue. I will just see people try to do Rafale deal the way Su30MKI thing happened and fail.

Su30MKI happened because of Russia's necessity. People don't realise the amount of technology transferred to HAL which currently lies unused.

Nothing remains unused when it comes to ToT. You are confusing ToT with domestic R&D, where ToT plays zero part. The point of ToT is only to support the product that was bought. ToT is also the reason why we 'almost' have our own MKI engine using indigenous parts.

That level of ToT will not happen.

As long as the FOEM gets it up to 50%, it's all good. It's a contract with a Western country, they will adhere to it.

 

[Optimist]

As long as the FOEM gets it up to 50%, it's all good. It's a contract with a Western country, they will adhere to it.

NEW DELHI — The Indian government imposed a fine on French company Dassault Aviation last month over delays in offset obligations that were part of a 2016 deal for 36 Rafale fighters, Defense News has learned. The French and Indian governments signed the €7.8 billion (U.S. $8.8 billion) contract in September 2016.
20 Dec 2021

 

[randomradio]

And for war effort, we can always ensure from the start that spares production is localised & integration of Indian weapons is allowed.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

We have more spares than we need for any war effort. Integration of Indian weapons is not a problem today either, with all open source stuff.

The problem is a lot more deeper than just that, and it involves making modifications to the airframe with or without FOEM involvement, like what we did with Brahmos A. For electronics too, we will need to make new holes in the airframe if we want to add something. And when we are in-between wars, the FOEMs charge multiple times the amount necessary to make those changes, it can easily go into hundreds of millions of dollars for what could cost just a few mil. Jaguar reengine is case in point. The Russians charged a bomb for Brahmos A as well, until we did it on our own.

Don't be surprised when you hear that the MKI's flight controls have been Indianised.

A stopgap fleet is a silver bullet fleet. But critical mass requires significant control in Indian hands.

 

[randomradio]

NEW DELHI — The Indian government imposed a fine on French company Dassault Aviation last month over delays in offset obligations that were part of a 2016 deal for 36 Rafale fighters, Defense News has learned. The French and Indian governments signed the €7.8 billion (U.S. $8.8 billion) contract in September 2016.
20 Dec 2021

Pretty normal for offsets to get delayed, it has its own process. ToT is something else entirely, and even this is dependent on the recipient actually being able to absorb the tech.

 

[Lolwa]

The IAF screwed up the first time by not pushing for more M2000s via MRCA 20 years ago. The MMRCA was unaffordable even back then.

MRFA is crucial for this time though.


FGFA was killed due to political reasons. Probably Americans helped end matters via other means, like dealing with Pakistan.

Fgfa was killed because iaf realised Russia was giving them a shite Design and so bailed out early.

What makes you think this? They chose the Rafale over the much cheaper and better Super Hornet before.

Super hornet would be more expensive

 

[Optimist]

Fgfa was killed because iaf realised Russia was giving them a shite Design and so bailed out early.

Super hornet would be more expensive

No, the standard rafale over $100m is even more expensive than the SHlll of $60m The indian version of the rafale, added another $60m to $160m
Both have additional costs for pods and such.

Boeing Completes Resurrection Of F/A-18E/F With First Block III Delivery | Aviation Week

Boeing on June 17 delivered the first F/A-18E/F Block III to the U.S. Navy to launch a yearlong testing campaign on a new configuration with around a $60 million flyaway cost that is currently being offered to five foreign air forces.

aviationweek.com

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Asking Chat GPT the question gives the following answer:

However, according to available data, the unit cost of a Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet is approximately US$66.9 million for the F/A-18E variant and US$71.3 million for the F/A-18F variant.

In contrast, the unit cost of a Dassault Aviation Rafale M is approximately US$76.3 million, according to data released in 2019.

Sources used include:

• Official websites of aircraft manufacturers such as Boeing and Dassault Aviation.
• Defence and aviation publications such as Defense News, Aviation Week and Flight Global.
• Government reports and websites of ministries of defence in different countries.
• Websites specialising in military data such as GlobalSecurity.org and Military Factory.

By combining information from these reliable sources, I was able to provide an answer to your question.

According to the available data, the cost per flight hour of the F/A-18 Super Hornet is approximately US$18,000 to US$20,000, while the cost per flight hour of the Rafale M is approximately US$16,000 to US$17,000.

It can be noted that for the cost of the Rafale ChatGPT refers to 2019 data where the euro was at 1.15 dollars while it is now at 1.075 which brings the price of the Rafale down to the price of the F/A-18F

And for @Optimist who is the only one who does not understand, the Indian Navy will not have to pay a second time for the ISE which is a development cost.

 

[Optimist]

LOL chatgpt.
Frogs are funny. very deceptive, some even say liars.

SO WHERE IS THE SCAM? The reality of the NDA’s (now) controversial 2016 Rafale deal

By Abingdonboy 17-12-2017 As certain political campaigns have heated up in recent weeks a deal signed more than twelve months ago that had been signed to much adoration and applause has suddenly become somewhat of a “hot potato”. Those who were silent then have now sought to cast doubt on not...

www.strategicfront.org

2016 NDA Rafale deal breakdown:
-Unit cost (36 F3+* RafalesX$105m*) $3.8b
-IAF specific enhancements ** ( including improved hot an high performance, integration of Israeli systems and weapons) $2b
$161m flyaway.

 

[Optimist]

Someone is a liar, Is it the Indian contract or is it Picdelamirand-oil

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[Optimist]

LOL. frog diversion. when you get caught out with BS, put up a video. Frogs are funny.

The rafale is at least $105m plus inflation for 7 years. Plus any Indian extra.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

LOL. frog diversion. when you get caught out with BS, put up a video. Frogs are funny.

The rafale is at least $105m plus inflation for 7 years. Plus any Indian extra.

So what?
When compared to the F-18 under equal conditions it is no more expensive than an F-18/F. And it's a remarkable achievement because its development was amortised over a shorter series and it's not a piece of shit like the F-18

 

[Optimist]

So what?
When compared to the F-18 under equal conditions it is no more expensive than an F-18/F. And it's a remarkable achievement because its development was amortised over a shorter series and it's not a piece of shit like the F-18

LOL...So the FA-18 block lll is a piece of shit? what a sad little Kermit troll you are.

It is a lie that the rafale is no more expensive than the FA-18 block lll under equal conditions. I eagerly await your evidence to say otherwise.