MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Lolwa]

F15 is a heavy air superiority fighter which will have higher operational costs and lower availability compared to either Rafale or SH. That's why it's better to invest in more MKI if we want similar capabilities. But we have more or less enough of those. That's why both Su35 and F15 won't make the cut.

I don't think we have enough heavy fighters. Not when we will be facing 500 flankers, 500 j-10's vs 270 flankers and 36 Rafales. We also need a bunch of standoff weaponry which the f-15 offers with LRASM,jasmm-er and more. Only problem being the f-15 can't supercruise unlike the Rafale otherwise the f-15 is the strongest contendor apart from Rafale. The typhoons aesa doesn't exist. The Gripen is basically mk 2 with lesser payload capacity, the f-16 is outdated. The f-18 is too ugly and can't fly. The f-15 literally has the largest radar among all fighters in the western world and has a GaN based EW suite. The f4 I assume will also get GaN based avionics.
A combo of Rafale's and f-15ex will solve all problem on the western border and it's enough to deter the Chinese psychologically. After which we can peacefully focus on getting the mk 2 and tedbf online.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I don't think we have enough heavy fighters. Not when we will be facing 500 flankers, 500 j-10's vs 270 flankers and 36 Rafales. We also need a bunch of standoff weaponry which the f-15 offers with LRASM,jasmm-er and more. Only problem being the f-15 can't supercruise unlike the Rafale otherwise the f-15 is the strongest contendor apart from Rafale. The typhoons aesa doesn't exist. The Gripen is basically mk 2 with lesser payload capacity, the f-16 is outdated. The f-18 is too ugly and can't fly. The f-15 literally has the largest radar among all fighters in the western world and has a GaN based EW suite. The f4 I assume will also get GaN based avionics.
A combo of Rafale's and f-15ex will solve all problem on the western border and it's enough to deter the Chinese psychologically. After which we can peacefully focus on getting the mk 2 and tedbf online.

China for us luckily has Japan and Taiwan to take care off also.

Yes they will still be able to outnumber us. But not by that huge margin. I will only say that if the operational cost of Su30MKI a year is 100, then the operational cost of Su35 is 250 and that of F15 E is somewhere in between the two. That is a very large amount. And Rafale is atleast 10 tons lighter at full load and SH too is like 7 tons lighter. Their maintenance is still more than a fighter like Gripen but very less compared to F15E or even our MKI.

Maintenance and operational costs are a very big factor in budget. 500 fighters of 35 tons vs 250 of 35 tons + 250 of 25 tons is a very very big difference cost wise but not a very big difference capability wise.

And against PLAAF we will mostly be holding defences, so focus will be on layered air defence throughout the frontiers and fighters like LCA and Rafales which can perform say 3 sorties a day continuosly. Doing so with Su30MKI will eat up spares very fast. We don't have that kind of resources.

 

[thinkingcap81]

I will only say that if the operational cost of Su30MKI a year is 100, then the operational cost of Su35 is 250 and that of F15 E is somewhere in between the two. That is a very large amount.

If the operating cost of the F15 exceeds that of the MKI then is it a false story that the MKI is a costly aircraft maintenance wise because of the Russian design philosophy?

 

[suryakiran]

My bottom line is that now we will need to offer something major and strategic to the US, and i do not know what this could be.

What we offer them is money. And alignment where interests converge. They are not providing anything free, that we need to align with them on everything. Neither are we dependent on them for any security.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Neither are we dependent on them for any security.

Unfortunately, perhaps more than you think: Because with Ukraine, if strategic trade deals are made between China and Russia, and a war breaks out between China and India, who do you think Russia will support?

 

[suryakiran]

Unfortunately, perhaps more than you think: Because with Ukraine, if strategic trade deals are made between China and Russia, and a war breaks out between China and India, who do you think Russia will support?

I think you misunderstood my point.

We do not expect the Americans to fight for us. Neither do we expect anyone else to fight for us. In the 1962 war, the Soviets sided with China. A part of history, that people tend to overlook. So, nothing we are not already aware of. In 1971, the Americans turned on us. Again, something the current generation tends to overlook.

We are not Ukraine, neither is China Russia.We do not fight with Chinese equipment. The Ukrainians fought with Russian equipment. The Ukrainian army is not battle hardened, the Indian Army is. The Ukrainian Army is incapable of taking the fight to the Chinese. We are capable of taking the fight to the Chinese.

There is a reason we are the second largest standing army in the world. The difference between the Russian and Ukrainian standing armies is 1:5 in Russia's favour. Between India and China its 1:1.5. Bring in paramilitary, we are bigger than them. Our paramiliary consists of the BSF, ITBP, Assam Rifles and the CRPF. Again, each of these forces is battle hardened.

The time for the Chinese was in the pre 2018 era to make any moves. Our borders with China were not re-enforced. Today, they are. Galwan was a serious mistake for them. Why? Because, India has the largest land border with them. A peaceful border, where sticks were carried by patrolling personnel on both sides. No weapons. They could have concentrated on the eastern hostile borders and the South China Sea. With one bad move, they have activated their longest border with the second largest standing army. And they nudged India to start exercising with Australia. Which we never did before.

One of the reason, why I have always preferred the Rafale over anything American or Euopean or Russian is purely from support perspective. We pay money, we get the support we need. We do not expect anyone to fight for us. Where will collaborate is in intelligence and surveillance, which in reality is what Quad is all about. Another 10 years, we will be even less dependent on the Russians.

 

[Hydra]

China for us luckily has Japan and Taiwan to take care off also.

Yes they will still be able to outnumber us. But not by that huge margin. I will only say that if the operational cost of Su30MKI a year is 100, then the operational cost of Su35 is 250 and that of F15 E is somewhere in between the two. That is a very large amount. And Rafale is atleast 10 tons lighter at full load and SH too is like 7 tons lighter. Their maintenance is still more than a fighter like Gripen but very less compared to F15E or even our MKI.

Maintenance and operational costs are a very big factor in budget. 500 fighters of 35 tons vs 250 of 35 tons + 250 of 25 tons is a very very big difference cost wise but not a very big difference capability wise.

And against PLAAF we will mostly be holding defences, so focus will be on layered air defence throughout the frontiers and fighters like LCA and Rafales which can perform say 3 sorties a day continuosly. Doing so with Su30MKI will eat up spares very fast. We don't have that kind of resources.

There is enough room for both mki & eagle with IAF. IAF definitely not going to upgrade all its mki fleets, the things they retire without upgradation must need a replacement with an aircraft in same category.

Unfortunately, perhaps more than you think: Because with Ukraine, if strategic trade deals are made between China and Russia, and a war breaks out between China and India, who do you think Russia will support?

This basic funda will not be understand by these Russian fan boys in India. China will be their choice, why would they support against china?

 

[suryakiran]

This basic funda will not be understand by these Russian fan boys in India. China will be their choice, why would they support against china?

And you think any other country is going to come fight for us? Before name calling understand the context. And how dumb can someone be for asking for the F-15 and Su-30 in the same air force. I mean, if this is not fan boism what is?

Did the Americans or the Europeans support us in any war we have fought till date? Hell, they have not supported Ukraine after literally pushing them to war. You think Americans are going to keep supplying to you, if you do not toe their line? Why do you think the French have their own foreign policy, unlike the British or Germany or Australia?

 

[Hydra]

And you think any other country is going to come fight for us? Before name calling understand the context. And how dumb can someone be for asking for the F-15 and Su-30 in the same air force. I mean, if this is not fan boism what is?

Did the Americans or the Europeans support us in any war we have fought till date? Hell, they have not supported Ukraine after literally pushing them to war. You think Americans are going to keep supplying to you, if you do not toe their line? Why do you think the French have their own foreign policy, unlike the British or Germany or Australia?

For time being, lets forget about us & Russia.

Lets assume that you are living in country "A", country A has fought war with other two countries "B" & "C". "B" is a weak country compares to "A" in all aspect including military capabilities, economic stability, Forex reserve & inhouse military engineering capabilities. On contrary the situation is exactly opposite between "A" &"C".
Now another two countries "D" & "E" existing with immense military capability. E is having immensely superior military engineering background over "D". E has enemity with D & C, and since ages they are not in a good terms with "B" too.


The country E will not support you in case war between A &B, but in a scenario where A&C engaging in war E will support A with weapons. Where D will support you in a war between A&B, but will favour C in a possible war between A&C.
The weapons you receiving from E is superior to what D is providing, also D had many joint R&D, weapon sales with C too.

Now conclusion is A dont need support from D or E to deal with B in a full fledged war. But definitely require a support from outside to defeat giant nation C, in that moment D will keep mum, but E will come with truck load of advance weapons.

Now tell me do A to be cosy with D or E?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

And you think any other country is going to come fight for us?

I didn't think any country should come and fight with you, but if you have weapons from a country, the support shouldn't stop in case of war.

 

[jk007]

Unfortunately, perhaps more than you think: Because with Ukraine, if strategic trade deals are made between China and Russia, and a war breaks out between China and India, who do you think Russia will support?

a) USSR did not support India during 1962 war......Russia will NOT support in any future war with China. But, we (India) is still dependent on Russian veto on any resolution against India's interest [relationship with France is not yet there. UK / USA can not be counted for veto]. So, the relationship between India + Russia will continue.

b) @randomradio @vstol Jockey @_Anonymous_ + Others:
During Kargill, which is the "friendly" country (on whom India is depending for satellite images) that said that their satellites are running out of batteries, and hence can not give images of war-zone? was that Russia?

 

[jk007]

If the operating cost of the F15 exceeds that of the MKI then is it a false story that the MKI is a costly aircraft maintenance wise because of the Russian design philosophy?

I cannot imagine F-15 is costly to maintain Vs SU-30 MKI.......During original MMRCA, there were many reports (or messages in forums with links) on how F-18 is a maintenance nightmare and how much US-Navy folks hate it (from maintenance nightmare perspective) . But after Rafale / EF are down-selected, suddenly those news articles stopped appearing. It is like someone turning-off a tap.

I too want India to buy US weapons. However,
a) US governments can not be trusted. Imagine if democrat-administration is in white-house, when 370 is revoked. Not sure what the brain-dead Biden will do, when / if Uniform Civil Code is implemented in India. Hopefully, he will still retain some dim sense, so that Harris will not become #1 [God Forbid].
b) Modi govt will be careful to not to buy some kind of offensive weapons from USA, and "provoke" China. I think Modi govt will start with F-18, not with F-15 purchase [that is my thinking].

However, the military relationship between USA and India is inevitable......my 0.000002 cents.

 

[randomradio]

I am only interested in
MK 1 and MK 1A -- which can be termed as Deliverables

Because the Squadron strength depends on these 2 planes

MK 2 and AMCA are all too far away

Mk2 as well. While AMCA is far away, Mk2 is not. It will enter production in 2025, just 3 years after Mk1A.

 

[randomradio]

I wonder why US would pitch F15 in place of F18.

1. Are the F18s not going to be procured by the IN?
2. Are the Rafales going to be limited to 72? Makes sense since France is less of a power than US.
3. Is US telling us to forget about additional MKIs and look at F15 as a replacement only, especially after Russia's aggression against Ukraine? The F15s are going to be in service with the US for some more time.
4. If points 2 & 3 are right then the only good/decent MKI remains the MKI that will be upgraded by indigenous tech sans the engine upgrade (what happens to the engine upgrade?). Russia might agree given the economic trouble it is in now. But then we'll be stuck with too many heavy fighters.
5. If point 4 is true, then with a large number of MKIs + F15s and a small fleet of Rafales, we have no option but to pray with crossed fingers for the success of LCA MK2.

1. Can't say, but it shouldn't matter. If Boeing is offering the F-15, it will be for good reasons. They know they lost the last tender with the SH.
2. If Rafale loses MRFA, it may stop at 36 even. Because it's obvious to focus on a jet that's better than the Rafale. Different story if such a jet exists in the tender.
3. Isn't realistic. But then, the F-15 is gonna be competing with Su-35, so... In any case, the MKI shouldn't matter.
4. I hope to see an engine upgrade. The AL-31FP is expensive and inferior, plus less electrical output.
5. Which is why it won't happen. It's a Rafale vs Typhoon contest.

We have to give the US something against their pressure and our requirement of them. We can't abandon the S400 deal and get THAAD, Patriot etc. So F15s are the only possibility.

We have no need to "appease" them in any shape or form. Only the media has made up this story of appeasement. We can buy whatever we want, and they have plenty of stuff to sell to us, and it will all be more expensive than deals with Russia. So that will take care of things on its own.

We need more Apaches and Chinooks, along with P-8I and C-130J. And drones. Perhaps the FVL helicopters for special forces. We need to start focusing on exotic technologies instead of basic stuff from both Russia and the US. The Indian industry can deliver most of the generic stuff. As our economy gets bigger, the less pressure they will apply on us.

 

[randomradio]

Methinks that the situation has changed since the Ukraine invasion. We're taking prime stuff from the Russians. Recently the additional 6 P8i order was being debated, no idea if this has been resolved. We need to take prime stuff from the US also - a few predators, though very costly, won't make the cut.

Import deals have been placed under review. Whatever we actually need, will be authorised. The P-8I could be amongst those.

Our model, as pointed out by @Hellfire , of using military purchases towards furthering our geopolitical objectives, is landing us in a logistics mess.

Yeah, but all of those purchases happened during the time when we didn't have the capability anyway. We still won't have much for at least another 10-15 years. The only good news is our reliance on imports is ending.

In 10-15 years we can use our large economy to push for geopolitical goals. That's what we are planning to do with Russia. As military imports stop, we will focus on energy imports from Russia to keep the relationship going.

 

[randomradio]

Something like 114 F-15EX and 72 more off the shelf orders for Rafale would be good. Easily will be able handle two front war. The f-15's replace the mig-27's,mig 23's and jaguars. While the Rafale's replace the mig 29. The mk 2 replaces the mirage and mig 21.

The Chinese will happily shoot down the F-15s. Even the USAF believes it's not meant to be used in a peer war, like against China. It's meant to patrol American skies or used as a bomb truck in a secondary role. Meaning it can't fight China.

 

[randomradio]

If the operating cost of the F15 exceeds that of the MKI then is it a false story that the MKI is a costly aircraft maintenance wise because of the Russian design philosophy?

Actually, we do not know, but the F-15EX should be cheaper due to the new engine technologies developed. In fact, they are claiming the F-15EX is cheaper than the F-35 to operate. Especially so when you consider the F-15 has been built for 20000 hours compared to F-35's 8000 hours. So when you bring the F-15's hours down to 8000 hours, the costs will likely be less than the F-16 B52.

The Americans have taken massive strides in engine tech too, so the TAC of new engines is insane. Like the new F414 requires hot parts overhaul at 4000 hours compared to M88-4E's 800 hours. So it looks like GE has compensated for their loss to P&W in other ways.

 

[randomradio]

Unfortunately, perhaps more than you think: Because with Ukraine, if strategic trade deals are made between China and Russia, and a war breaks out between China and India, who do you think Russia will support?

If the US and EU can't control Saudi and UAE, how do you expect China to control Russia? Russia and China will have mutually beneficial deals because both have something the other wants, the Russians want Chinese tech, the Chinese want Russian resources. Neither side will try to trample on each others' businesses elsewhere. And unlike China, the Russians will eventually be able to diversify the imports they need as the world gets richer. It's not a zero-sum game.

During war, Russia will simply stay neutral, while selling to both sides.

 

[randomradio]

There is a reason we are the second largest standing army in the world. The difference between the Russian and Ukrainian standing armies is 1:5 in Russia's favour. Between India and China its 1:1.5. Bring in paramilitary, we are bigger than them. Our paramiliary consists of the BSF, ITBP, Assam Rifles and the CRPF. Again, each of these forces is battle hardened.

We are the largest now.

Indian Army now world's largest ground force as China halves strength on modernisation push

While the Indian Army is bearing the burden of a large personnel driven force, the Chinese are in the midst of a massive modernisation.

theprint.in

One of the reason, why I have always preferred the Rafale over anything American or Euopean or Russian is purely from support perspective. We pay money, we get the support we need. We do not expect anyone to fight for us. Where will collaborate is in intelligence and surveillance, which in reality is what Quad is all about. Another 10 years, we will be even less dependent on the Russians.

Amen.

The help we need from the West is intelligence, financial and logistics support, nothing else. What we need to do is build up our military force to the point where we can fight both Pak and China on our own. We are still getting there, I hope we get there by the end of the decade.

b) @randomradio @vstol Jockey @_Anonymous_ + Others:
During Kargill, which is the "friendly" country (on whom India is depending for satellite images) that said that their satellites are running out of batteries, and hence can not give images of war-zone? was that Russia?

First I'm hearing of this.

 

[randomradio]

However, the military relationship between USA and India is inevitable......my 0.000002 cents.

It will largely be limited to selling us stuff before and during a war.