MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[_Anonymous_]

I see. Since it's 2022 , the default patent for everything good or bad happening lies with resident story teller. Any material proof as in specifics. Don't be silly. If 2022 has been declared as the year of good fortune, then if is the year of good fortune. The Ukrainian war was also foretold. As well as it's consequences. On India. It's 2022.

One reason why I don't miss 8 pm ( goddamned puns) is the silly hangover the next day. But that's only me & lesser folk.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

And us, we're trying to be serious here, in the middle of it all.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

They have actually prepared for it going overweight, hence dry thrust of 75KN for an MTOW of 26T. And the empty weight specs also seem to be modest. Very likely to be 11.5T, which is already 1.2T more than Rafale-M.

Plus either Dassault or Boeing's help will become available, based on who wins MRCBF, long before TEDBF's design is frozen. As of 3 months ago, it's only finished concept design and has entered preliminary design. So I'm sure enough assistance will be provided during detailed design, flight testing and LSP for weight control.

We promised help for AMCA, not for theTEDBF.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

DASSAULT AVIATION ET L’ISAE-SUPAERO RENOUVELLENT LEUR COLLABORATION SUR LA CHAIRE DE RECHERCHE « CONCEPTION ET ARCHITECTURE DE SYSTÈMES AÉRIENS COGNITIFS »

DASSAULT AVIATION AND ISAE-SUPAERO RENEW THEIR COLLABORATION ON THE "COGNITIVE AIR SYSTEMS DESIGN AND ARCHITECTURE" RESEARCH CHAIR

Initiated in 2016, the "CASAC" research and training chair, signed by Dassault Aviation, ISAE-SUPAERO and its Foundation, aims to rethink the relationship between crews and the systems used in aviation. Following promising initial results, the two aeronautics players are renewing their partnership for a further three years.

Initiated in 2016, the "CASAC" research and training chair, signed by Dassault Aviation, ISAE-SUPAERO and its Foundation, aims to rethink the relationship between crews and the systems used in aviation. Following promising initial results, the two aeronautics players have renewed their partnership for a further three years.

WORK TO OPTIMISE MAN-MACHINE INTERACTION

This chair, whose main research areas are neuroergonomics, decision-making autonomy in automated systems and systems engineering, aims to study various aspects of collaboration between man and machine. The challenge is to make civil and military air operations safer, more robust and more efficient, while guaranteeing complete control to crews. The systems under consideration are very often operated in complex situations; they therefore have advanced automatisms to carry out their missions in a more autonomous manner, still under human control, based on decision-making algorithms from the field of artificial intelligence.

At ISAE-SUPAERO, the Aerospace Vehicle Design and Control Department (DCAS) has expertise in neuroergonomics and artificial intelligence for system control. Neuroergonomics is the discipline that analyses the functioning of the brain and the work behaviour of users through the prism of neuroscience. In concrete terms, it involves evaluating the mental states of the user with regard to his or her ability to perform the tasks assigned to him or her. Artificial intelligence for system control is the discipline that develops automated decision-making algorithms. The decisions concern, for example, the set of tasks to be proposed to the operator or to be carried out automatically in order to reduce the operator's workload and improve his performance in relation to the operational context.

"Dassault Aviation is particularly concerned by the problems of human-machine interaction because military aviation is very demanding due to the diversity and unpredictability of missions, which require complex tactical management. The challenge is to provide the human being with all the services that will enable him or her to assume responsibility for this management. This is why we are working with ISAE-SUPAERO to identify the phenomena that will affect the performance of collaboration between crews and their machines," says Jean-Louis Gueneau, coordinator of the scientific aspects of the Chair at Dassault Aviation.

INITIAL CONCLUSIVE RESULTS

The Chair's research work on Human-Machine Interaction, carried out from 2016 to 2021, has enabled the development of various physiological measurement tools, as well as machine learning and automated action planning techniques. In particular, the teams worked on the development of active or passive assistance functions to help pilots and operators improve their performance.

For this purpose, 'pilot monitoring' was the initial focus of work in order to better understand the activity of the crew. Experiments on simulators using behavioural and physiological measurement tools have been carried out to determine metrics capable of evaluating operator performance, and their level of commitment or stress.

Dassault Aviation plans to integrate such functions into its civil and military aircraft in the next decade.

THE MACHINE, THE OPERATORS' TEAMMATE

"The main thrust of this chair is the development of innovative technologies that help, on the one hand, to qualify the interaction between the human and the machine to determine whether cooperation is effective and, on the other hand, to automatically decide what should be maintained, suggested or changed to promote team performance," explains Caroline Chanel, head of the chair at ISAE-SUPAERO.

To do this, quantitative behavioural and physiological metrics will be merged with more qualitative metrics in order to assess the effectiveness of human-machine cooperation. This efficiency measurement will then be exploited by algorithms from the field of artificial intelligence to adapt and reinforce this cooperation.

 

[_Anonymous_]

And us, we're trying to be serious here, in the middle of it all.

If you're dealing with India particularly the government & you lack patience you'd die prematurely of stress . Out here we measure time in eons not years. We believe only newly civilized & prosperous societies measure time in years.

Out here also, in Hindi the most widely spoken language the word for tomorrow is also the same for yesterday - kal.

If you don't understand the context in which it's used, you're screwed.

 

[randomradio]

And us, we're trying to be serious here, in the middle of it all.

You will see for yourself very soon, MRFA's announcement.

Recall my posts about the demand for hundreds of jets for the IAF since many years? Now the IAF is officially speaking about it.

In an exclusive interaction, the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari speaks with Manish Kumar Jha of BW Businessworld on building and acquiring capabilities for IAF.

He spells out his thoughts on such national projects such national projects in aerospace and defence—LCA Tejas, AMCA, MRFA, HTT-40, and LCH—projecting the sheer commitment of 450 aircrafts in aerospace and defence. The modern warfare is all about the air dominance with such stealth and speed...

www.businessworld.in

He is still being quite modest.

We promised help for AMCA, not for theTEDBF.

That demand's for MRFA though, not MRCBF.

MRCBF also demands assistance in carrier construction and carrier aviation. Weight reduction and refinement of the TEDBF airframe should be a very basic demand for either OEM to fulfill.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Just as I thought. No questions at all about the Mk-2, hence no mention of it either. He's being disproportionately modest. Stooping to conquer.

Is it what I think it is Or is it what I think it is? Well, I'm a poor storyteller. What would I know ? I defer to the sole world class talent in this department out here.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Just as I thought. No questions at all about the Mk-2, hence no mention of it either. He's being disproportionately modest. Stooping to conquer.

Is it what I think it is Or is it what I think it is? Well, I'm a poor storyteller. What would I know ? I defer to the sole world class talent in this department out here.

It is an old article

First we need to start the Serial
Production of Mk1A , only then talk of MK2

 

[_Anonymous_]

It is an old article

First we need to start the Serial
Production of Mk1A , only then talk of MK2

Mk-2 was scheduled to begin taxi trials this month as per the original schedule which has now been postponed by a year. How much longer are you going to postpone discussions on it?

 

[randomradio]

This is pretty much the same interview due to which some people here decided the IAF isn't serious about LCA Mk2. All because the CAS didn't mention it.

But...

Indian Air force clears Tejas Mark 2 design, production in 2023

The Deputy Chief of Air Staff (DCAS), Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari, accepted the comprehensive design review (CDR) of the LCA Mark 2

www.business-standard.com

A major landmark in that evolution was passed on November 15, when the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (DCAS), Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari, accepted the comprehensive design review (CDR) of the LCA Mark 2.

At worst it merely slipped his mind. Or the reporter was told to redact comments about LCA Mk2 for bureaucratic reasons, since the design was up for CDR clearance.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Mk-2 was scheduled to begin taxi trials this month as per the original schedule which has now been postponed by a year. How much longer are you going to postpone discussions on it?

I am only interested in
MK 1 and MK 1A -- which can be termed as Deliverables

Because the Squadron strength depends on these 2 planes

MK 2 and AMCA are all too far away

The Entire Force planning has gone haywire with the Delays of MK 1 and MK 1A

Whether we should buy More Su 30s or 21 MIG 29s or Beg for Second Hand Mirage 2000s while waiting for any Decision on Rafale Follow On deal and
SU 30 Upgradation ---- Everything has been F***ed up
By the never ending delays on the Tejas

 

[thinkingcap81]

I wonder why US would pitch F15 in place of F18.

1. Are the F18s not going to be procured by the IN?
2. Are the Rafales going to be limited to 72? Makes sense since France is less of a power than US.
3. Is US telling us to forget about additional MKIs and look at F15 as a replacement only, especially after Russia's aggression against Ukraine? The F15s are going to be in service with the US for some more time.
4. If points 2 & 3 are right then the only good/decent MKI remains the MKI that will be upgraded by indigenous tech sans the engine upgrade (what happens to the engine upgrade?). Russia might agree given the economic trouble it is in now. But then we'll be stuck with too many heavy fighters.
5. If point 4 is true, then with a large number of MKIs + F15s and a small fleet of Rafales, we have no option but to pray with crossed fingers for the success of LCA MK2.

We have to give the US something against their pressure and our requirement of them. We can't abandon the S400 deal and get THAAD, Patriot etc. So F15s are the only possibility.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I wonder why US would pitch F15 in place of F18.

1. Are the F18s not going to be procured by the IN?
2. Are the Rafales going to be limited to 72? Makes sense since France is less of a power than US.
3. Is US telling us to forget about additional MKIs and look at F15 as a replacement only, especially after Russia's aggression against Ukraine? The F15s are going to be in service with the US for some more time.
4. If points 2 & 3 are right then the only good/decent MKI remains the MKI that will be upgraded by indigenous tech sans the engine upgrade (what happens to the engine upgrade?). Russia might agree given the economic trouble it is in now. But then we'll be stuck with too many heavy fighters.
5. If point 4 is true, then with a large number of MKIs + F15s and a small fleet of Rafales, we have no option but to pray with crossed fingers for the success of LCA MK2.

We have to give the US something against their pressure and our requirement of them. We can't abandon the S400 deal and get THAAD, Patriot etc. So F15s are the only possibility.

There's the Predators & P-8i orders in the pipeline . Throw in some Apaches + Chinooks . Cumulatively those should be worth 6-7 billion USDs spread over the next 2-3 FYs beginning April 2022 .

Then there maybe other mid / low ticket purchases.

We don't need their Eagles. Of the Hornets I'm not very sure but you can be sure that if there's not much separating the Rafales from the Hornets technically & cost wise in that order strictly , MoD / GoI in all likelihood would prefer the Rafales.

 

[thinkingcap81]

There's the Predators & P-8i orders in the pipeline . Throw in some Apaches + Chinooks . Cumulatively those should be worth 6-7 billion USDs spread over the next 2-3 FYs beginning April 2022 .

Then there maybe other mid / low ticket purchases.

We don't need their Eagles. Of the Hornets I'm not very sure but you can be sure that if there's not much separating the Rafales from the Hornets technically & cost wise in that order strictly , MoD / GoI in all likelihood would prefer the Rafales.

Methinks that the situation has changed since the Ukraine invasion. We're taking prime stuff from the Russians. Recently the additional 6 P8i order was being debated, no idea if this has been resolved. We need to take prime stuff from the US also - a few predators, though very costly, won't make the cut.

Our model, as pointed out by @Hellfire , of using military purchases towards furthering our geopolitical objectives, is landing us in a logistics mess.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Methinks that the situation has changed since the Ukraine invasion. We're taking prime stuff from the Russians. Recently the additional 6 P8i order was being debated, no idea if this has been resolved. We need to take prime stuff from the US also - a few predators, though very costly, won't make the cut.

Of course it's changed . This is why we're going in for those purchases. The 6 P-8i weren't part of the ban on foreign imports as was initially reported. As to how important those Predators are , they're only sold to allies & major non NATO allies like India . Didn't Congress or Trump issue a special waiver for the deal during Trump's presidency ?

Besides how many F-15s do you think we can afford ? 115 @perhaps 250 - 300 million USDs including armaments , ISE & LCC per piece only to get monkey models ?

Our model, as pointed out by @Hellfire , of using military purchases towards furthering our geopolitical objectives, is landing us in a logistics mess.

Yes. But in 15 yrs time you're looking at the IAF minus the Jaguars , Mirages & MiG-29 with homegrown fighters like different variants of the Tejas , AMCA Mk-1 , MKI & Rafales with perhaps a few 5th Gen FAs thrown in .

Certainly better than the menagerie we have right now what with MiG-21 , Mirage 2000 , MiG-29 , Jaguar , Su-30MKI , LCA Tejas Mk-1 / Mk-1a & Rafale.

I'm restricting this discussion to manned platforms of the IAF that too only FAs not trainers or supposedly supplementary CAS roles for the Hawks / iHawks .

 

[thinkingcap81]

Of course it's changed . This is why we're going in for those purchases. The 6 P-8i weren't part of the ban on foreign imports as was initially reported. As to how important those Predators are , they're only sold to allies & major non NATO allies like India . Didn't Congress or Trump issue a special waiver for the deal during Trump's presidency ?

Besides how many F-15s do you think we can afford ? 115 @perhaps 250 - 300 million USDs including armaments , ISE & LCC per piece only to get monkey models ?

Predators and P8i (thanks for the update about them) may be top notch and major equipment, but as of now the other stuff do not make news as much as fighter aircraft.

I do understand the cost part and the inherent redundancy of the F15s, though they won't be as monkey level as the Pak F16s (they did have some advantages against our MKIs). After all, we need the Rafales / F15s to posture against China.

If not military hardware, then maybe we will need to realign in the intelligence area, a process going on but needs to be expedited.

My bottom line is that now we will need to offer something major and strategic to the US, and i do not know what this could be.

 

[Sathya]

Predators and P8i (thanks for the update about them) may be top notch and major equipment, but as of now the other stuff do not make news as much as fighter aircraft.

I do understand the cost part and the inherent redundancy of the F15s, though they won't be as monkey level as the Pak F16s (they did have some advantages against our MKIs). After all, we need the Rafales / F15s to posture against China.

If not military hardware, then maybe we will need to realign in the intelligence area, a process going on but needs to be expedited.

My bottom line is that now we will need to offer something major and strategic to the US, and i do not know what this could be.

We ll be buying specialized equipment from USA, no dearth of items for that.
Parikrama once told , we were interested in F15 silence treatment. ( for our use in Super sukhoi)
And i think they weren't forthcoming.
Now it's too late and they ask for too much and it ll make excess heavy fighters bleeding the funds.
AMCA will be ready before we could apply that silence treatment .

 

[Lolwa]

I hope that the MMRCA concluded a bit faster and the final assembly plant here starts deliveries by 2027-28. Even at 12 Aircrafts a year for say 10 year, the facility should be viable. If still a twin engine platform is needed, go for a modified tedbf version.

But that's too far.

As of now I am only looking up till the 2025-26 period. Hopefully we get an off self purchase of 36 more Rafales first. Along with Mk1A would be solving short term issues. After 2026-27 we can start looking at expansion.

Considering we haven't given up the failed practice of L1. I think SH is still a strong contender for Navy. Their cost offer will be very competitive.

Something like 114 F-15EX and 72 more off the shelf orders for Rafale would be good. Easily will be able handle two front war. The f-15's replace the mig-27's,mig 23's and jaguars. While the Rafale's replace the mig 29. The mk 2 replaces the mirage and mig 21.

 

[Lolwa]

Predators and P8i (thanks for the update about them) may be top notch and major equipment, but as of now the other stuff do not make news as much as fighter aircraft.

I do understand the cost part and the inherent redundancy of the F15s, though they won't be as monkey level as the Pak F16s (they did have some advantages against our MKIs). After all, we need the Rafales / F15s to posture against China.

If not military hardware, then maybe we will need to realign in the intelligence area, a process going on but needs to be expedited.

My bottom line is that now we will need to offer something major and strategic to the US, and i do not know what this could be.

We have to give the Americans a bone soon if we want to keep their trust and f-15EX is not a bad plane at all. It's airframe has 20000 hours life so will survive uptil the late 2060's and we can integrate the brahmos and alcm on it easily since it can carry 14 tons of payload enough to act as standoff bombers to counter chinese bombers.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Something like 114 F-15EX and 72 more off the shelf orders for Rafale would be good. Easily will be able handle two front war. The f-15's replace the mig-27's,mig 23's and jaguars. While the Rafale's replace the mig 29. The mk 2 replaces the mirage and mig 21.

F15 is a heavy air superiority fighter which will have higher operational costs and lower availability compared to either Rafale or SH. That's why it's better to invest in more MKI if we want similar capabilities. But we have more or less enough of those. That's why both Su35 and F15 won't make the cut.