Are we sure the blk 3 use ge 414 epe. From what I have read there is no source about the blk 3 having the epe engine..
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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If the Rafale could not fit the Indian carrier lifts, would the Navy be about to organise a competition between the Rafale and the F-18 SH?
With MiG-29’s Falling Apart, Its Time To Pitch In The Rafale-M For The Indian Navy
By Indian Defence News
Noticing serious serviceability issues with the Russian MiG-29Ks, the original choice, along with the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), as the multi-role combat aircraft for the current Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya and the first indigenous aircraft carrier Vikrant, the Indian Navy has released a detailed Request for Information for procurement of 57 Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighters (MRCBF). Boeing and Dassault Aviation are in the fray with the F/A-18 Super Hornet Block II and Rafale, respectively. Geopolitics Bureau examines the issue.It has been a couple of years since the Indian Navy issued a request for information (RFI) for procurement of 57 MRCBF, following a delay in the development of the TEJAS Navy. The Navy requirement is the world’s largest tender for procurement of a carrier borne strike fighter and has two contenders: Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and Dassault Aviation’s Rafale Marine. While the Rafale Marine has only one operator, which is the French Navy, the Super Hornet has two operators, the US Navy and the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF).
To many observers, the requirement for a new carrier fighter type was a surprise as the Indian Naval Aviation operates 45 MiG-29K (single-seat) and MiG29KUB (twin-seat) for which a substantial amount of operating infrastructure has been set up and a training pipeline has been put into place. Despite the Navy playing a key role in the development of the MiG-29K and funding it to boot, if it now needs different products, it implies that it faced poor product support from the manufacturer. In other words, teething developmental issues took much longer to rectify than anticipated. It may be noted that 45 aircraft were ordered from Russia by India which was the launch customer for the aircraft, with orders being placed in 2004 and 2010 for 16 and 29 aircraft, respectively. Deliveries of all the 45 aircraft have been completed.
The net result is that the Navy’s dissatisfaction with the MiG-29K and a delay in development of the TEJAS Navy will result in the Indian taxpayer being saddled with the bill to procure 57 new carrier-borne fighters. The IAF contract for 36 Rafale F3-R combat aircraft inked in September 2016 cost ₹59,000 crore (Euro 7.87 billion). A carrier-based multi-role combat aircraft will be more expensive to procure, but even for purposes of calculation if the IAF cost is applied, then 57 aircraft for the Navy would cost a whopping ₹90,000 crore! This will be in addition to the ₹10,500 crore spent in procuring the disappointing MiG-29Ks.
Pitching For The The Rafale-M
France, since 2018 has been pitching the Rafale-M variant fighter jet as a contender for the Indian Navy’s requirement of carrier-borne combat aircraft, with a top officer saying that it’s battle proven.
Pointing to operations against ISIS using the Rafale, the French Navy feels it will be suitable for India and can be easily integrated on-board the aircraft carrier under construction at Cochin Shipyard which is likely to be commissioned by next year end or early 2022. “We have used the aircraft carrier in the fight against ISIS and have used sophisticated armaments from the Rafale that demonstrates that it works very well,” Rear Admiral Gilles Boidevezi, in charge of foreign relations for the French Navy remarked in an interview with ET.
“The Rafale can be integrated with non-French carriers.” Industry sources said several rounds of talks had taken place with Indian Navy regarding the Rafale offer for a requirement of 57 jets and that it hadn’t been impacted by the political controversy over the earlier deal for 36 planes. In fact, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman is expected to be in Paris from October 11 for a bilateral meeting, during which she is expected to be briefed on all ongoing projects, including Scorpene submarines and progress on Rafale production.
The tenders for the contract are expected to be issued shortly but it is likely to be a straight contest between the Boeing-made F/A 18 Super Hornet and the Rafale Marine. The French navy believes that it has demonstrated its ability to operate from foreign carriers. “The Rafale went to the US and was deployed on American aircraft carriers,” said Boidevezi. “The Rafale was perfectly integrated with the US carriers and has shown its capability to work with non-French platforms.”
Both the F/A 18 and Rafale Marine fighter jets have been operating from aircraft carriers but are rigged for catapult launches. This may pose problems for India as the navy uses the ski-jump system, which involves a runway that curves upward. Sources said that extensive tests and software analysis have been conducted by the French side on the Rafale to show that it can operate with a meaningful load from ski-jump carriers.
This data has also been shared with the Indian Navy that is currently drafting technical requirements for the new fighter competition. Boeing, which makes the Super Hornet, has also shared this data with the Indian Navy.
Once the requirements are firmed up and permissions obtained from the ministry of defence, tenders will be issued. It is still unclear how the Indian side will categorise the purchase — as a direct foreign purchase or with an offset clause that mandates a proportion of the manufacturing will have to be domestic. The MiG 29 Ks were bought fully built from Russia as the relatively small number would have made domestic production too expensive.
A Viable & Competent Option
The Rafale-M is undoubtedly the most advanced naval strike fighter in service anywhere. Designed from the outset for carrier operations, it has successfully been engaged in combat operations from the Charles de Gaulle nuclear aircraft-carrier in Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq and Syria.
And why not: He is only stating a fact, it is well known that the F-18 SH has very poor aerodynamics: they couldn't even fix the weapons parallel to the direction of the movement, otherwise they would have problems during the separations. The aim of the SH version was to have a 30 or 40% better range than the classic F-18 and this one is only slightly better.Why the BUTT HURT???
SH F-18s do the job flawlessly and except for Rafales which I do agree is superior no other naval carrier fighter can beat F-18s at sea. Whatever the PLAnavy can throw at us in near future and even up till 2032-35 F-18s can handle it. What is important in India's context is it's cheaper to buy even cheaper to lease, cheaper to maintain, cheaper weapons and ammunition thanks to mass production which makes it affordable for Indian navy while at the same time builds capabilities which are superior to our adversaries IE Pakistan and China. Rafales are too expensive, reason being stubborn dassault which does not believe in mass production but fewer quantities with huge profits. They scuttled the whole mmrca process by filing wrong quotations and back tracking on technology transfer especially turbofan engine technology and cooperation with HAL otherwise India would have gone for full requirements of more than 250 fighters with Rafales which is now filled with mix of F-18s, Rafales in fewer numbers, MWF, Mig29, Su30mkis, etc..
All this is fine but the SAFRAN DRDO imbroglio definitely hurt Dassault's chances. That , the IN's newly found fascination for Bonsai design reflected most aptly in the design of the elevators & the extensive modifications required of the Rafale in case it were selected to fly on IAC -1. Add to it, India's growing strategic reliance on the US, intense American lobbying, the growing importance of the Quad & the fact that of all the 4th G naval fighters, given our or rather the IN's unique situation the F-18 makes for a better match as compared to the others.If the Rafale could not fit the Indian carrier lifts, would the Navy be about to organise a competition between the Rafale and the F-18 SH?
With MiG-29’s Falling Apart, Its Time To Pitch In The Rafale-M For The Indian Navy
By Indian Defence News
Noticing serious serviceability issues with the Russian MiG-29Ks, the original choice, along with the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), as the multi-role combat aircraft for the current Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya and the first indigenous aircraft carrier Vikrant, the Indian Navy has released a detailed Request for Information for procurement of 57 Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighters (MRCBF). Boeing and Dassault Aviation are in the fray with the F/A-18 Super Hornet Block II and Rafale, respectively. Geopolitics Bureau examines the issue.
It has been a couple of years since the Indian Navy issued a request for information (RFI) for procurement of 57 MRCBF, following a delay in the development of the TEJAS Navy. The Navy requirement is the world’s largest tender for procurement of a carrier borne strike fighter and has two contenders: Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet and Dassault Aviation’s Rafale Marine. While the Rafale Marine has only one operator, which is the French Navy, the Super Hornet has two operators, the US Navy and the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF).
To many observers, the requirement for a new carrier fighter type was a surprise as the Indian Naval Aviation operates 45 MiG-29K (single-seat) and MiG29KUB (twin-seat) for which a substantial amount of operating infrastructure has been set up and a training pipeline has been put into place. Despite the Navy playing a key role in the development of the MiG-29K and funding it to boot, if it now needs different products, it implies that it faced poor product support from the manufacturer. In other words, teething developmental issues took much longer to rectify than anticipated. It may be noted that 45 aircraft were ordered from Russia by India which was the launch customer for the aircraft, with orders being placed in 2004 and 2010 for 16 and 29 aircraft, respectively. Deliveries of all the 45 aircraft have been completed.
The net result is that the Navy’s dissatisfaction with the MiG-29K and a delay in development of the TEJAS Navy will result in the Indian taxpayer being saddled with the bill to procure 57 new carrier-borne fighters. The IAF contract for 36 Rafale F3-R combat aircraft inked in September 2016 cost ₹59,000 crore (Euro 7.87 billion). A carrier-based multi-role combat aircraft will be more expensive to procure, but even for purposes of calculation if the IAF cost is applied, then 57 aircraft for the Navy would cost a whopping ₹90,000 crore! This will be in addition to the ₹10,500 crore spent in procuring the disappointing MiG-29Ks.
Pitching For The The Rafale-M
France, since 2018 has been pitching the Rafale-M variant fighter jet as a contender for the Indian Navy’s requirement of carrier-borne combat aircraft, with a top officer saying that it’s battle proven.
Pointing to operations against ISIS using the Rafale, the French Navy feels it will be suitable for India and can be easily integrated on-board the aircraft carrier under construction at Cochin Shipyard which is likely to be commissioned by next year end or early 2022. “We have used the aircraft carrier in the fight against ISIS and have used sophisticated armaments from the Rafale that demonstrates that it works very well,” Rear Admiral Gilles Boidevezi, in charge of foreign relations for the French Navy remarked in an interview with ET.
“The Rafale can be integrated with non-French carriers.” Industry sources said several rounds of talks had taken place with Indian Navy regarding the Rafale offer for a requirement of 57 jets and that it hadn’t been impacted by the political controversy over the earlier deal for 36 planes. In fact, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman is expected to be in Paris from October 11 for a bilateral meeting, during which she is expected to be briefed on all ongoing projects, including Scorpene submarines and progress on Rafale production.
The tenders for the contract are expected to be issued shortly but it is likely to be a straight contest between the Boeing-made F/A 18 Super Hornet and the Rafale Marine. The French navy believes that it has demonstrated its ability to operate from foreign carriers. “The Rafale went to the US and was deployed on American aircraft carriers,” said Boidevezi. “The Rafale was perfectly integrated with the US carriers and has shown its capability to work with non-French platforms.”
Both the F/A 18 and Rafale Marine fighter jets have been operating from aircraft carriers but are rigged for catapult launches. This may pose problems for India as the navy uses the ski-jump system, which involves a runway that curves upward. Sources said that extensive tests and software analysis have been conducted by the French side on the Rafale to show that it can operate with a meaningful load from ski-jump carriers.
This data has also been shared with the Indian Navy that is currently drafting technical requirements for the new fighter competition. Boeing, which makes the Super Hornet, has also shared this data with the Indian Navy.
Once the requirements are firmed up and permissions obtained from the ministry of defence, tenders will be issued. It is still unclear how the Indian side will categorise the purchase — as a direct foreign purchase or with an offset clause that mandates a proportion of the manufacturing will have to be domestic. The MiG 29 Ks were bought fully built from Russia as the relatively small number would have made domestic production too expensive.
A Viable & Competent Option
The Rafale-M is undoubtedly the most advanced naval strike fighter in service anywhere. Designed from the outset for carrier operations, it has successfully been engaged in combat operations from the Charles de Gaulle nuclear aircraft-carrier in Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq and Syria.
Of course, all this is water off a duck's back for Dassault as they don't need exports in order to survive. The Government of France which treats DA as it's crown jewels would make sure DA doesn't go under even if they didn't export a single aircraft.
So, it's a win win situation.
It's tiring the obstinacy of people to say that the Rafale is expensive when it's only an impression that comes from the fact that contracts that include Rafales include much more than the plane itself.
When you buy a car you don't count in its price the driving lessons that are necessary for you to use it, nor the price of the garage that will allow you to do all the repairs imaginable during the lifetime of your car, yet that's how Rafale sales are conceived, whereas for example for American aircraft sales, this is not the case, the latter preferring to make separate contracts away from media enquiries.
In France the price is higher than the cost and the cost is public. Afterwards the price depends on the conditions imposed by the buyer, but as these conditions are the same for all competitors and in general they do not concern the product itself but the associated services, it can be assumed that their impact is the same for all competitors.
Then we can compare the costs
The cost of the Rafale according to a report by the French SENAT is € 68.8 Million for the Rafale C, € 74 Million for the Rafale B and € 79 Million for the Rafale M. You get it at a PRICE around $ 95 Millions for a cost of € 72 M ~($ 87 M)
The cost of the F-18 SH is also public: $ 80 Million, i.e. € 67 Million.
This price can be found in an official document from the Department of Defense. Fiscal Year (FY) 2021 Budget Estimates February 2020 :
https://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Documents/21pres/APN_BA1-4_BOOK.pdf (page volume 1- xiii) where 24 F-18 SH have a cost of
$1 922 275 000.
The costs are not that different and are easy to justify with the differences in performance.As for the fact that the F-18 SH is cheaper to maintain let me laugh, the Rafale is designed to have a very low LCC, probably even lower than that of the Gripen.
Or it will be like su30 & mki deal. We have returned the first 40 su30 airframe to Russians after they started delivering much capable mki.
In can return f18sh when much advanced blk3 started flying.
Both f18 & f16 were initial pitted against each other for USAF during development. F16 design has won the contract for USAF and USN used the f18 design.
Its like buying things with credit card vs bulk money/debit card. Super ruch will buy groceries with debit card and middle class will use credit card.
There is a huge cost the country has to pay, has paid and is paying for the delay in making the decisions. The UPA government not only was very corrupt but was also inept to make those strategic decision. They did not have the resolve shown by Mr. Modi to take decisions and also make it work. The tight rope that he walks is no longer thin but has broadened for the past 6 years. Other than the latest statements from the foreign minister of Russia, there is not a world leader who questioned his foreign policy and de-hyphenating the relationship with countries that were arch rivals. I hope the various measures taken up to untangle our famed procurement policy, actually works and we don't have to pay the price (cost escalation) due to indecisiveness.
Why did you bring modi, nda, russian foreign minister, modi's resolve to a my reply which says a country like france can afford an ultra costly aircraft but india cannot to picdelamirand-oil? I really didn't get what you are trying to convey here.
Its not just the cost of the equipment, but there is a cost escalation due to passing time when the file is not approved. There is a clause in every quote that addresses factors like inflation & fluctuations in forex. I said the cost we paid for 36 Rafale was not just for the jets or the India specific enhancements, but to account for the 2 factors that I mentioned above, which was due to not taking the decisions on time. I also mentioned Modi's resolve because, he could have not made the decision thinking what would USA think, if I were to buy from France. He made the right decision by keeping the need of the IAF in mind and by de-hyphenating the relationship of India with France & USA. Hope that helps. My apologies, if it is still off topic.
Yeas, and no. Regarding tye delay both IAF & GOI is equally responsible, IAF has completed mmrca evaluation and declared EF &Rafale as technically qualified bidder in 2010. They took more than 10 years from 1999 to make up their mind on what they want. Goi again started drama to choose L1.
When u purchase any aircraft you are not paying just for tye jets. If you compare the rafale deal cost for Egypt, Qatar with that of India you will come to know that the price is almost same for these three countries. What you are seeing is the cost for the deal. The cost for the deal will be less than that of Rafale deal if you are purchasing f18 or 16 or mig.
Regarding US, till no pm or government has surrendered our sovereignty to USA at the cost of our interest. Go and see how MMS has screwed the uncle same while signing nuke deal with them. And go and read what we have done to USA during Devayani incident too. And FYI we stopped purchasing or reduced the cheap oil import from Iran under US pressure, this has happened under Modi.
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Not entirely accurate. The F/A-18 was derived from the YF-17 which built for the USAF, and was rejected in favour of the YF-16, which later became the F-16. The USN later chose the twin engine YF-17 to develop the F/A-18. The F/A-18 Hornet was later modernised to the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet.