Trainer Aircraft of IAF - PC-7, HTT-40, HJT-36, BAE Hawk
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
IOC for HTT-40 is pointless. You can't train your pilot with IOC. What are you going to tell the pilot in the middle of training? "Yeah, your training is half done, now let's wait a year or two until FOC to finish your basic training".
IOC aircraft are supposed to be flown by seasoned pilots until such time the aircraft is fully opened up and certified for rookie training. You can say that a trainer doesn't even have an IOC. It's full certification or bust.
IOC for combat aircraft is fine because some missions can be carried out by the aircraft within limited flight envelope, and is done by seasoned pilots.
Very Interesting, PC7 meets the PSQR for Trainer competition; and it's safe to fly.
HTT40 meets all of it's PSQR test point requirements, and it's useless?
HTT40 in its current configuration easily exceeds the performance of the PC7 but it's still not good enough.
"HAL Engineering and Research & Development director Arup Chatterjee said that the preliminary services qualitative requirements test points have been successfully met during the test."
HAL’s HTT 40 trainer begins spin testing phase of aircraft development
Meeting test points and having an aircraft fully certified are two wholly different concepts. PC7 is fully certified. HTT-40 is not even close to reaching the certification goals.
Nobody gives a sh!t about the goals you are talking about when it comes to certification. HTT-40 needs to get a CEMILAC air-worthiness certification or a similar global third-party agency's certification that's recognized in India to be equivalent to the PC-7. You can't even produce the aircraft let alone fly the aircraft without third-party certification. You even need to do a paper evaluation before first flight.
CEMILAC - Achievements | Defence Research & Development Organisation DRDO DRDO
Third-party certification takes a long time as well.
LCA
LCA Tejas gets Final Operational Clearance, DRDO hands over certificate to IAF at Aero India 2019
So you're gonna have to keep an eye out for when CEMILAC certifies the HTT-40, only then will you know all 'goals' have been cleared.
Im your side of the fence
For the HTT40 and LUH, we shall see
1) IOC next year 2019 (Subjected) with production beginning in the end of 2020 (LUH) and 2021(HTT40) with delivery of the first frame 2021/22 =3 - 4 years (correct?)
2) Even with delivery commencing - we will see 1-2 years for SOP and FOC = 2 years
For a Total = 5 - 6 Years (approx) that the IAF will have to wait to actually use these frames operationally
That is a long wait
2 Things will happen in that time
First
- We have see the Ka226 contract signed and it will be operational in the IAF first
- Once the 1 year ban for Pilatus is completed - a possible fine included (or not) a contract will be signed for additional frames or maintenance contract
Second
- None of the above will happen and we just have to wait and will see what in store for phase 5 of the MCU - meaning like our fellow members put it - the IAF has waited this long - so what is a few years more!!
So - lets see what happens in 2020/21
Let's get this clear you are stating, Final Certification is Cemmilac's Air Worthiness certification and Not PSQR?
LCH is fine even if it gets delayed by a year. The forces are not in a hurry for this. But I don't see a problem here because the helicopter already has IOC and is nearing FOC.
But HTT-40 is crucial. HAL's taking too long to finish the work necessary. They are only promising IOC by the end of the year, so you can imagine when FOC's going to happen.
I'm not a fan of lifting the ban on Pilatus, it will show India's weakness and it will become difficult to punish the corrupt after that. But due to our ridiculous strategic circumstance, we will likely be forced to lift the ban anyway. The IAF is stuck between a rock and a hard place. We're going to get 200 new fighter jets in the next 5 years, which will require at least 350 pilots. Can't train those pilots without a basic trainer.
Look at the irony. Earlier we had plenty of BTT and IJT, but didn't have advanced jet trainers, so our Mig-21 pilots would keep crashing their jet. Now we have enough AJTs, but very few BTTs and IJTs, so now we can't even fly the jets that are supposed to crash.
I don't think IAF has released an ASR, since it's not an IAF project, but HAL is making the jet to IAF's PSQR specifications on their own. But it still needs CEMILAC's certification for both IOC and FOC.
Ahem,
Please clarify a little bit.
IOC is worthless without full certification, which you refer to as Cemillac's Air Worthiness certification.
But then as per your own post-IOC iand FOC needs Cemillac's Air Worthiness certification (i.e. RCMA -Aircraft Banglore) Remember Engine for HTT40 is already certified by cemmilac RCMA -Engines, So should we assume if IOC is achieved it cannot be without Air Worthiness Certification, the Final Certificate that you have been blabbing endlessly about?
Next FOC is can only be achieved when ASQR is written, without and ASQR, there cannot be IOC, which you "doubt" ; (Hint you cannot write a PSQR without an ASQR).
CEMILAC's certification happens at every stage of the program. That's why I used the term "fully certified". IOC is not "fully certified".
Even LCA's IOC had CEMILAC certification. And FOC required next step in certification. First flight also requires certification. There is certification at every step.
I'd actually recommend reading up on certification first.
Airworthiness Certification of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas - The Process | Flight Test | Reliability Engineering
CEMILAC is basically a co-designer for the HTT-40.
BS. PSQRs can be written anytime, all the time. They rarely convert into ASR. It becomes an official program when ASR is issued.
If ASR has not been issued, you can treat PSQR as ASR itself. It's your individual prerogative. But don't expect the IAF to accept it in any case, since that's their prerogative. Which also means, whatever HAL decides to call IOC, the IAF doesn't have to follow it, because the IAF sets the qualifiying parameters for IOC and FOC anyway.
So if HTT-40 has to be taken seriously, HAL is going to have to get the HTT-40 fully certified, ie, full compliance to the PSQR.
Anantha Krishnan M 
(@writetake) Tweeted:
#BreakingNews
HAL's #HTT40 finally undertakes 5-turn spin successfully today. It is mandatory to demonstrate a 6-turn (dropping from the sky at 1000 ft/min) and the young ARDC team is all focussed for this in a few days, weather permitting. What an achievement. 1/2 @akananth Anantha Krishnan M on Twitter ( )
@randomradio ; @Milspec
Anantha Krishnan M (@writetake) Tweeted:
#BreakingNews
Big round of applause to the #HTT40 team for they knew that success would at striking range one day. Despite all kinds of mess #HAL is in now, this team stuck to their guns, focussed. All the best for 6-turn spin. @manoharparrikar will be a happy man. 2/2
@akananth Anantha Krishnan M on Twitter ( )
(@writetake) Tweeted:#BreakingNews
HAL's #HTT40 finally undertakes 5-turn spin successfully today. It is mandatory to demonstrate a 6-turn (dropping from the sky at 1000 ft/min) and the young ARDC team is all focussed for this in a few days, weather permitting. What an achievement. 1/2 @akananth Anantha Krishnan M on Twitter ( )
@randomradio ; @Milspec
Anantha Krishnan M
(@writetake) Tweeted:#BreakingNews
Big round of applause to the #HTT40 team for they knew that success would at striking range one day. Despite all kinds of mess #HAL is in now, this team stuck to their guns, focussed. All the best for 6-turn spin. @manoharparrikar will be a happy man. 2/2
@akananth Anantha Krishnan M on Twitter ( )
If you can recover from a four turn fully established spin, six turns will never be a problem. A spin fully develops by the end of second turn and becomes fully stable spin by the fourth turn. When fighter aircraft are certified, we need to demonstrate recovery from inadvertent spin of less than two turns. It is assumed that a well trained fighter pilot will be able to recognise the entry into spin and take corrective action within the span of two turns.Anantha Krishnan M
#BreakingNews
HAL's #HTT40 finally undertakes 5-turn spin successfully today. It is mandatory to demonstrate a 6-turn (dropping from the sky at 1000 ft/min) and the young ARDC team is all focussed for this in a few days, weather permitting. What an achievement. 1/2 @akananth Anantha Krishnan M on Twitter ( )
@randomradio ; @Milspec
Sir,
With respect to the spin tests, didn't HAL manufacture the previous generation of Basic Trainers? Were they designed in house? And were they capable of the Spin & Stall tests? Could you elaborate on this?
Yes, HT-2, HPT-32 and Kiran Mk-1 & 2 were certified for spin. I have myself spun Kirans upto four turns as part of maintenance test flights.
Then, how come HAL has taken this long and several redesigns to accomplish these tests now? Any insight?
