The Vedic World

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This is my first post in a thread. Happy I am starting my discussion on the forum in a thread dedicated to our Vedic history, something which I am so interested at.
Staunch supporter of Out of India Theory aka Indigenous Aryans(though I disagree with the racial classification).
And I believe there happened a divide within the Vedic people millennia ago, with the Dasarajnya being the final point where the Parshus,Parthas and Anus split from the Vedic branch led by Purus of Aila line and that divide is what destiny turned into today's Zoroastrians( Parsis of India,as we know them) and Vaidikas of Bharat.
 
This is my first post in a thread. Happy I am starting my discussion on the forum in a thread dedicated to our Vedic history, something which I am so interested at.
Staunch supporter of Out of India Theory aka Indigenous Aryans(though I disagree with the racial classification).
And I believe there happened a divide within the Vedic people millennia ago, with the Dasarajnya being the final point where the Parshus,Parthas and Anus split from the Vedic branch led by Purus of Aila line and that divide is what destiny turned into today's Zoroastrians( Parsis of India,as we know them) and Vaidikas of Bharat.
And also Kambhoj. The people of Brahmvarsha divided into four parts. North went to Anus/Kambhoj, West went to pressent day Iranians, south went to Yadus and Aryavrat to Purus or the Bharatas.
 
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Point well taken but I think there's a fundamental difference between Archaeoastronomy & astrology. I never referred to the latter unless it's a typo from your end.

Further, I think the archaeological community ought to broaden it's horizons beyond considering certain disciplines as blasphemy or heretical just because a fringe group swears by it.

I'm also inclined to believe that while Indo Iranian as a language family may have been the last time break away from P.I.E , the practices this described may well have it's origins in even more ancient times. After all codification of the liturgical language for rituals apart from the rituals themselves follows and doesn't precede the rituals or the liturgical texts employed in it's discharge.Just my 2 cents . There have been fire altars discovered in the Pontic Steppes too dating to about 4000-5000 BCE apart from the BMAC circa 2000 BCE which incidentally also revealed butchered remains of horses in precisely the manner it had been described in the Rg Veda.

Well I think we are beginning to come around to the idea that the ancient world was far more interconnected among the various cultural groups than we were prepared to consider. Culture, language, belief systems, religious motifs, and other aspects of what constitutes our social system, freely transmitted between and among cultural groups spread over distant geographies,like any goods or commodity of trade. Our generation which is perennially trapped in this bubble of nation state, national boundaries, national languages and national symbols, is simply unable to reconcile itself to a world where such narrow and restrictive worldview was simply nonexistent.

Not only our scientific community , but our society as a whole must broaden its outlook and prepare to acknowledge that there existed a world, occupying the same geographical space, but a completely different world view. Fire altars, like you stated, are found in BMAC, in Eastern Iran, in the mature IVC sites. The Swastika motifs have been found in IVC, in historical India, in early bronze age steppes, in ancient Iran, in Neolithic Europe. Cultural myths like the deluge is found ancient India, Mesopotamia, among Hebrews. Social practices like bull taming /bull jumping were painted on the walls of the ancient temples of Tamil Nadu and on the walls of sanctuaries in Minoan Crete.

May be we are looking at things incorrectly. Perhaps it is wrong to see that a thing had a origin in a particular space and time. Perhaps, like fire, ideas were always in currency and circulated among all social groups, jumping from one culture to another, shaping all the cultures that they Intruded in but never belonging to any one them.
 
I am continuing to have trouble reconciling two populations living together side by side for God knows how many centuries, with zero intermixing during that time.

Which is why the more traditional theory of ANI in the north, with an established ASI in the south, with hardly any interaction, makes more sense to me on the basis of geography and land barriers.

Unless there were strict racial ghettos. Segregation. Social.

Or

Did a strict codified caste system already exist on the land pre Vedic Hinduism ... just not by occupation but by race and blood?

Harappan apartheid.

The intermixing starts with the advent of the Aryans (I'm comfortable with that simple word ... we may as well call them early Vedic Hindus) into the area from the west.

But we know that the Iranians too have the exact same 4 social groups as the Hindus do. I'm not very clear about the inter marrying and endogamy laws for laiety in ancient Iran. Need to read further on that. I only know about the priests. Patrilineal ancestry. But both sons as well as daughters marry only into the priestly families.

So was there a pulse (isolated time point admixture over a single or few generations) of admixture or was it for a prolonged period if time.

What suddenly kicked off massive intermarriage where none happened ever for ages.

Did the Aryans come, interbred, and then eventually reorganize the classes on their ancestral lines, over the existing racial ones?

And then the mixing stops somewhere 2000 years ago (start of the Puranic age?) and a strict "new" Hindu caste system is instituted in place of the "old" Harappan one.

Or also

This new one in necessitated by the spread east and south because these ancestral people are now populating a continent ... and coming in contact with hitherto unknown tribes as they begin cutting the forestland for agriculture.

A final thought.

What if the Aryans, Vedic Hindus, never came overland via the Indus basin at all. As everyone is concentrating on.

What if, like us millennia later, they came by sea, and landed on the west coast, much further south.

The konkansta brahmins?

What if the collision that birthed Hinduism started in the south and moved north from there?

@vstol Jockey @Sandeep0159 @_Anonymous_

Cheers, Doc

Well if the ANI and ASI were already settled in their present historical location, ANI in North and ASI in South, how will Dr Reich explain his findings that both the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers appear to have both ANI - ASI mixed ancestry. This admixture would have to have happened in the beginning and could only have happened in a urban setting (in order to support large diverse population). South India has not shown evidence for bronze age urban centers, so it has to be IVC.

Well it is not so farfetched to imagine diverse social groups living in close proximity, but not necessarily completely assimilating. Linguists have identified, like I mentioned earlier, several loan words into Indo-Aryan that they trace to Dravidian and munda language family. This may indicate that in the distant past, these language families (or their proto forms) may have subsisted in close proximity. Which means they mingled enough to share words, but retained their distinctive grammar and structure to remain separate language family.

Your reference to social classification among the parsis is quite appropriate. Presence of caste or class distinction does not necessarily indicate a distinction of race. It must be noted even in the Hindu caste system, various castes, and the subcaste, are often from the same ethnolinguistic group. IVC may have had some kind of social stratification or group hierarchy, within a homogenous population.

I think we need to junk this notion of a mass migration /invasion of people into late bronze age India. Not only is this model too simplistic to sustain based on the evidence we have, but flies in the face of everything that we know about human social interactions. More than Migration, interaction is the word we should ideally be harping on.

In Michael Crichton's novel Sphere, the people who enter the Sphere, end up manifesting their deepest held fear /desire. Much of our reading into our history is similar. When we look back into history, we end up imagining it as a narrative constructed from our deeply held prejudices, biases and wishful thinking. Very seldom do we show the patience to let the evidence to speak for itself. The persian in you perhaps wants to see Indo-Aryans coming from Iran, the north Indian brahmin would like to believe that Indo-Aryan was the source of all Indo-European languages and cultures, as a South Indian malayalees I may want to believe that the some early Dravidians authored the Indus valley civilization, the Marxist would like to trace all Class division in India to the four castes mentioned in the purushasukta, the dalit activists see the caste division in the Vedas as the source all dalit oppression, and so on and so forth.... There is no escape from this inherent bias, so instinctively human.

Note - The geographical scope of the Rgveda is limited to what is now NWFP(pakistan), Punjab (India & pakistan), Haryana and parts of western UP. So we can safely rule out any southern route for this putative migration.
 
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Well if the ANI and ASI were already settled in their present historical location, ANI in North and ASI in South, how will Dr Reich explain his findings that both the Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers appear to have both ANI - ASI mixed ancestry. This admixture would have to have happened in the beginning and could only have happened in a urban setting (in order to support large diverse population). South India has not shown evidence for bronze age urban centers, so it has to be IVC.

Well it is not so farfetched to imagine diverse social groups living in close proximity, but not necessarily completely assimilating. Linguists have identified, like I mentioned earlier, several loan words into Indo-Aryan that they trace to Dravidian and munda language family. This may indicate that in the distant past, these language families (or their proto forms) may have subsisted in close proximity. Which means they mingled enough to share words, but retained their distinctive grammar and structure to remain separate language family.

Your reference to social classification among the parsis is quite appropriate. Presence of caste or class distinction does not necessarily indicate a distinction of race. It must be noted even in the Hindu caste system, various castes, and the subcaste, are often from the same ethnolinguistic group. IVC may have had some kind of social stratification or group hierarchy, within a homogenous population.

I think we need to junk this notion of a mass migration /invasion of people into late bronze age India. Not only is this model too simplistic to sustain based on the evidence we have, but flies in the face of everything that we know about human social interactions. More than Migration, interaction is the word we should ideally be harping on.

In Michael Crichton's novel Sphere, the people who enter the Sphere, end up manifesting their deepest held fear /desire. Much of our reading into our history is similar. When we look back into history, we end up imagining it as a narrative constructed from our deeply held prejudices, biases and wishful thinking. Very seldom do we show the patience to let the evidence to speak for itself. The persian in you perhaps wants to see Indo-Aryans coming from Iran, the north Indian brahmin would like to believe that Indo-Aryan was the source of all Indo-European languages and cultures, as a South Indian malayalees I may want to believe that the some early Dravidians authored the Indus valley civilization, the Marxist would like to trace all Class division in India to the four castes mentioned in the purushasukta, the dalit activists see the caste division in the Vedas as the source all dalit oppression, and so on and so forth.... There is no escape from this inherent bias, so instinctively human.

Note - The geographical scope of the Rgveda is limited to what is now NWFP(pakistan), Punjab (India & pakistan), Haryana and parts of western UP. So we can safely rule out any southern route for this putative migration.

I guess the question boils down to,

Why did they mix when they did, for as long as they did.

We understand why they stopped (Hindu caste system)

But it cannot be Vedic.

Coz the hardening was much later.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. I'm still not convinced of two large racial groups living together in an urban milieu for over a thousand - fifteen hundred years with strict endogamy.

If 1.4 billion of us grew out of those 5 million, then even one breakaway elopement, would magnify multitudes of times in today's genetics.

Translation: There would have been some admixture dated to pre mixing band of after 4000 to after 2000 years ago.
 
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I guess the question boils down to,

Why did they mix when they did, for as long as they did.

We understand why they stopped (Hindu caste system)

But it cannot be Vedic.

Coz the hardening was much later.

Cheers, Doc

P.S. I'm still not convinced of two large racial groups living together in an urban milieu for over a thousand - fifteen hundred years with strict endogamy.

If 1.4 billion of us grew out of those 5 million, then even one breakaway elopement, would magnify multitudes of times in today's genetics.

Translation: There would have been some admixture dated to pre mixing band of after 4000 to after 2000 years ago.

This means David Reich's findings needs to be further fine tuned, data needs to be expanded with more samples included. I was surprised that they were making grand pronouncements on the migration & mixing of the population of late bronze age in India, without including any aDNA analysis of samples from the Cemetery H (Harappa) site which is widely believed to have been an interloper culture, post mature Harappan phase. This would be the best place to find any migrating Aryan, if there were any.

We have to remember that David Reich's genetic research lab is probably one of the only 3 that is seriously involved in paleogenomic research. This is too small group to be making such grand propositions on the history of a wide swathe of people. Some of his findings, on similar lines, on the peopling of the pacific Islands have run into controversy.
 
This means David Reich's findings needs to be further fine tuned, data needs to be expanded with more samples included. I was surprised that they were making grand pronouncements on the migration & mixing of the population of late bronze age in India, without including any aDNA analysis of samples from the Cemetery H (Harappa) site which is widely believed to have been an interloper culture, post mature Harappan phase. This would be the best place to find any migrating Aryan, if there were any.

We have to remember that David Reich's genetic research lab is probably one of the only 3 that is seriously involved in paleogenomic research. This is too small group to be making such grand propositions on the history of a wide swathe of people. Some of his findings, on similar lines, on the peopling of the pacific Islands have run into controversy.

That's often the case in the medical/life sciences field.

Small very niche labs. Holy cows.

Cheers, Doc
 
Aryan migration: Everything you need to know about the new study on Indian genetics
The study says some sort of migration did indeed take place into India and that the Indus Valley civilisation is key to all South Asian populations.
Rohan Venkataramakrishnan
Apr 02, 2018 · 10:59 am

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A new paper authored by 92 scientists from around the globe that was posted online this weekend could settle some major questions about the subcontinent’s history and what that means for various theories of Indian civilisation. The paper, titled “The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia” which still has to go through peer review, uses genetics to examine the ancestry of ancient inhabitants of the subcontinent. Below is a quick summary of what you need to know.

Who authored the study?
There are 92 named authors on the study including scholars from Harvard, MIT, the Russian Academy of Science, the Birbal Sahni Institute of Paleosciences in Lucknow, the Deccan College, the Max Planck Institute, the Institute for Archaeological Research in Uzbekistan and the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad. Among the co-directors of the study is geneticist David Reich, whose new book has inspired much recent discussion about ancient human history and racial theory.

How was the study conducted?
The researchers looked at genome-wide data from 612 ancient individuals, meaning DNA samples of people that lived millennia ago. These included samples from eastern Iran, an area called Turan that now covers Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and South Asia. Of the 612, the DNA of 362 ancient individuals was being examined for the first time. They then compared this data with that taken from present-day individuals, including 246 distinct groups in South Asia.

What were they looking for?
A lack of sufficient ancient DNA as well as proper inquiry into the matter has meant that we still do not understand how Central and South Asian populations were formed. There have been various theories about this, with some very closely connected to politics both in South Asia and abroad. The Nazis, for example, helped propagate the Aryan Invasion Theory in which blue-eyed fair people swept into the Indian subcontinent on horses, conquering everyone they saw along the way. Hindutva proponents have argued the opposite altogether, what is known as the Out-of-India theory, claiming that, if anything, Indo-European languages originated in India and spread out westward from there.

DNA and other human science based research has thrown up confusing signals in the past, with mitochondrial DNA, which is only transferred by females being mostly unique to the subcontinent. This suggested that the inhabitants of India have been indigenous for thousands of years. However, Y chromosomes, which are passed from male to male, showed much more connection to West Eurasians, whether Europeans, people of the Irani plateau or Central Asians.

Amid all this, there is the question of whom the Indus Valley people were. Were they more connected to those we now know as Dravidians, only to be pushed south by migrating Aryans? Or were they themselves Aryans, who eventually moved southward?

In many ways, the study set out to resolve this contradiction and answer some part of the question: Who are the people of the subcontinent and how did they get there?

What did they find?
The paper, which you can read in full here, builds on the genetic understanding that there were two separate groups in ancient India: Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians, or ANI and ASI. These two groups were, as Reich explains in his new book, “as different from each other as Europeans and East Asians are today.” But where do these two populations, which solidify in around 2000 BCE, come from?

There are three potential groupings that, when mixed in various combinations, could be responsible for the creation of the Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian Populations.

  • The first are South Asian hunter-gatherers, described in this study as Ancient Ancestral South Indians or AASI, the oldest people of the subcontinent, related to modern-day Andaman islanders.
  • Then there are Iranian agriculturists, who were known to have come to the subcontinent, possibly bringing certain forms of cultivation of wheat and barley with them.
  • And finally, there are the Steppe pastoralists, the inhabitants of the vast Central Asian grasslands to the north of Afghanistan, who were previously known as ‘Aryans.’
There is another, important population with South Asian connections that sits somewhere amidst these three: the Indus Valley population.

In Turan, the area north of modern-day Iran also known as the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex, there was a huge community of ancient people who seem to have little genetic connection with the inhabitants of the subcontinent. Yet the authors found three individuals from this ancient complex that did have some connection to India, specifically an ancestry mix of Iranian agriculturists and South Asian hunter-gatherers or Ancient Ancestral South Indians. This matched individuals from the Swat Valley in Pakistan, another Indus Valley site. Because the researchers didn’t have direct access to ancient DNA from India’s Indus Valley sites, the paper prefers to call them Indus Valley periphery individuals. These three individuals are key to the findings.

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Where does the Indus Valley fit in?
The reason the researchers call them Indus Valley periphery individuals is because they cannot be sure that their genetic makeup is the same as most of those who lived in the Indus Valley, because they did not have access to ancient DNA from Indian sites. But for the most part they seem to use these individuals as proxies for the people of that civilisation.

The make-up of Indus Valley periphery individuals is straightforward: a mixture of Iranian agriculturists and the South Asian hunter-gatherers, or Ancient Ancestral South Indians.

The study finds that these two ancestries are also there in both of the subsequent populations, of Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians, except for a couple of key differences.

  • First Ancestral South Indians have the same basic mix: South Asian hunter-gatherers and Iranian agriculturists, with a higher amount of the former.
  • And second, importantly, Ancestral North Indians have one more ancestry mixed in that is not to be found in Ancestral South Indians: the Steppe pastoralists or, to use the old term, Aryans.
What does the paper conclude?
  • In simple terms, the mixing of Iranian agriculturists and South Asian hunter-gatherers first created the Indus Valley population.
  • Then around the 2nd millennium BCE, Steppe pastoralists moved south towards the subcontinent encountering the Indus Valley population in a manner that was likely to have caused some amount of upheaval.
  • What appears to happen afterwards is that some of the Indus Valley population moves further south, mixing more with South Asian hunter-gatherers to create the Ancestral South Indian population
  • Meanwhile, in the north, the Steppe pastoralists are mixing with the Indus Valley population to create the Ancestral North Indian grouping.
  • Most subsequent South Asian populations are then a result of further mixing between Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians.
This also means that the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation are the bridge to most extant Indian populations. “By co-analyzing ancient DNA and genomic data from diverse present-day South Asians, we show that Indus Periphery related people are the single most important source of ancestry in South Asia.”

What does all this mean?
Many things that would be hard to summarise. Journalist Tony Joseph, explains a number of implications in this piece, but here are a few main ones:

  • Some form of “Aryan” migration did take place, even if that term is not used. The introduction of Steppe pastoralists into the subcontinent might have been the way what we know as Indo-European language and culture spread, since it was the same lot of Steppe peoples that also moved West into Europe.
  • Moreover, there may be connection between the Steppe migration and priestly caste and culture. The researchers say they found 10 out of 140 Indian groups with a higher amount of Steppe ancestry compared to Indus Valley ancestry. These two were titled “Brahmin_Tiwari” and “Brahmin_UP”. More generally groups of priestly status seem to have higher Steppe ancestry, suggesting those with this mixture may have had a central role in spreading Vedic culture.
  • The Out of India theory is now even more unlikely, at least at the genetic level. The researchers say early Iranian agriculturists did not have any significant mixture of South Asian hunter-gatherer ancestry, “and thus the patterns we observe are driven by gene flow into South Asia and not the reverse”.
  • That said, there is some evidence of movement of the Indus Valley people out towards the Turan area, based on data from the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex. Ancestries of people there suggest some very small amount of South Asian hunter-gatherer mixture, and the presence of the three outlier individuals is believed to possibly be proof of Indus Valley inhabitants migrating to Turan.
  • The Indus Valley Civilisation ancient DNA data from the Haryana site of Rakhigarhi, which was supposed to be released last month, should add to this picture of the ancestry of South Asian populations.

Source: Aryan migration: Everything you need to know about the new study on Indian genetics

@S. A. T. A

Cheers, Doc
 
Either way India is our land.

Whether we left or that of our sons is academic.

So those who claim India is for Hindus only can ....

Cheers, Doc

This is infuriating at so many levels..

Sanghis : We consider Parsis to be our brothers
VsDoc : I hate Sanghis, you claim India is for only Hindus
Sanghis : bro, I just said I consider Parsis to be as much Indian as Hindus.
VsDoc : Look at the Sanghi just said he hates Parsis and India is only for Hindus.

Sanghi slaps himself and stays away,
it's like arguing with your wife, no chance of winning.
 
Aryan wars: Controversy over new study claiming they came from the west 4,000 years ago
A historical debate gets political again as new genetics research suggests our Aryan ancestors came in from the west over 4,000 years ago.

d our ancestors come from? This can be a highly emotional, and political issue.

It is clearly an important question for many people and one that modern genetics has answered to a great extent. In recent months, a scientific paper published in the journal BMC Evolutionary Biology has sparked a heated controversy in the Indian mediaby outlining an 'Indo-European expansion, with an ultimate source in the Pontic-Caspian region' into the Indian subcontinent.

Behind the gently arcane scholarly language, the paper argues that the genetic ancestry of all modern Indians displays evidence of significant mixing with populations that moved to the subcontinent from northern Iran and the Caspian region some 4,000-5,000 years ago. Tempers are fraying because these findings have reignited a long-simmering and highly politicised debate about the ancient origins of the Vedic 'Aryans'. For decades, historians, linguists and archaeologists have debated the relationship of the Aryans to India, with little resolution, indeed the argument has been subsumed by its implications for the contemporary battles between the hyper-nationalist politics associated with the Sangh parivar and the secular liberal opposition. Many Hindu nationalists are uncomfortable with the idea that the ancient roots of the Indian peoples may lie outside the sacred geography of the subcontinent. Meanwhile, there is often an element of liberal schadenfreude in embracing the narrative that suggests a parallel between the Vedic Aryans as conquering 'invaders', not unlike the later visitations of Islamic and European empires.

Over the last few years, genetics has begun to offer its own findings, which much more definitively indicate that a people, who may have been Aryans, moved into the subcontinent approximately 4,000-5,000 years ago. Soon, the field of ancient DNA research may close the case. The BMC paper that has drawn so much interest and ire is just the latest in a line of research that goes back decades, and grows more precise and insightful with every new technological advance. By looking at patterns of genetic markers in modern humans, geneticists have been able to sketch the family tree of our species. Researchers are also testing genetic material from remains tens of thousands of years old. It has already highlighted the Neanderthal heritage extant today in all humans outside of Africa.

Because genetic science has been driven by US-based researchers, biases have crept into the sort of questions asked. But the democratisation of the field, due to a surfeit of data, is now enabling exploration of more diverse topics, including questions related to the Indian subcontinent.

Eurocentric ideologies have spawned their own counter-theses. While, in 1903, the Indian nationalist Bal Gangadhar Tilak could write The Arctic Home in the Vedas, in keeping with the migrationist beliefs of the era, today, Indophilic westerners such as Koenraad Elst are promoting an 'Out of India' theory, an inversion of the older route.

These arguments exist outside of politics and nationalism. The author Sanjeev Sanyal contends that "the idea of a unidirectional 'Aryan' invasion or migration around 1500 BC is now conclusively proven to be wrong". As outlined in his book, The Ocean of Churn, Sanyal emphasises the reciprocal movements of peoples. He notes that archaeology does not tie any Indus Valley civilisation site to Central Asia, and the Vedas themselves seem ignorant of geography outside of South Asia.

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Ten years ago, one could reasonably support Sanyal's suppositions from a genetic perspective. The exploration of mitochondrial lineages, the direct maternal ancestry out of Africa, remained the dominant method of inference. That line of evidence strongly suggests that South Asian populations are deeply rooted in the subcontinent.

Other researchers were looking at the descent of males, the direct paternal lineage as recorded by mutations of the Y chromosome. The evidence from these results was more equivocal. One of the more common South Asian Y lineages, R1a1a, is also very common in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. The discoverer of this lineage, the geneticist Spencer Wells, says that his work "in the late 1990s strongly supported a significant migration from the steppes of Eastern Europe and Central Asia into India in the past 5,000 years". Wells connected this to Indo-European speaking nomads, and believes the latest results have borne that out. Obviously, this is in conflict with the mitochondrial results. Because R1a1a is not very diverse, it was difficult to get a sense of where or when it may have originated. Many researchers, contra Wells, contended that R1a1a may have been indigenous to South Asia.

Today, we know more about R1a1a than we did in the 2000s. Whereas then researchers looked at a few hundred markers on the Y chromosome, or perhaps some regions with very high diversity, today they can sequence most of the Y chromosome.

In line with Wells' original suspicion, after looking at whole genomes, many scholars now surmise that R1a1a entered South Asia within the last 4,000-5,000 years from the Eurasian steppe. The reason R1a1a is not diverse is that it underwent a massive, recent expansion; not much time has elapsed for mutations to accumulate. With whole genome analysis, one can see that East European R1a1a is one lineage, while Central Asian and South Asian R1a1a strains form another. Martin Richards, co-author of the paper in BMC, explains, "This high resolution allows for both very detailed genealogical information and quite precise genetic dating, so we can see where and when lineages branch off into a new territory."

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"There is a very marked sex bias in the arrival [in India] of new peoples from the steppe zone during the bronze age"

Martin Richards, Archaeogenetics professor

Ancient DNA has also shed light on the relationship of the various branches of R1a1a. Extinct Central Asian steppe pastoralists, the Scythians, and their geographic kin, the Srubna people, who dwelt north of the Caspian Sea 3,750 years ago, also carry this Y lineage. It is notable that the R1a1a lineages of Scythians and Srubna are the same as Central Asians and South Asians, not Europeans.

A resolution to the paradox of mtDNA and Y chromosomal lineages pointing in different directions has now presented itself. The answer: migration into India was not sex balanced. This is a major point in the BMC paper. Richards states, "There's a very marked sex bias in the arrival of new peoples from, ultimately, the steppe zone of eastern Europe, in the Bronze Age." (This is the case in Europe too, with steppe migrants overwhelmingly male.)

Our understanding today does not rest on Y chromosome and mtDNA alone. With whole genomes available for analysis, scientists have reshaped our understanding of the past of South Asia. In 2013, geneticist Priya Moorjani and colleagues published research concluding that at least two very distinct populations were mixing in the Indian subcontinent 2,000-4,000 years ago. Moorjani says that "4,000 years ago, there were unmixed ANI and ASI groups in the Indian subcontinent".

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"Some 4,000 years ago, there were unmixed 'ANI' and 'ASI' groups in the subcontinent... the direction of migration leading to ani was probably into India"

Priya Moorjani, Geneticist

ANI and ASI are acronyms for Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians. The former population was genetically very similar to Near Easterners and Europeans. One of the original researchers who developed this model of Indian origins, Nick Patterson, characterises the genetic distance between ANI and European populations as so small that if you did not know of the provenance you might say it was a European population. The ASI, in contrast, do not have any close relatives. Rather, they were distant relatives of indigenous Andaman islanders. Moorjani reiterates that though there were unmixed populations representative of these groups in the relatively recent past, today all native South Asian groups display ancestry from both.

In Moorjani's 2013 paper, she estimated that Dalits from Tamil Nadu are 40 per cent ANI (the remainder presumably being ASI). Pathans are 70 per cent ANI. Kashmiri Pandits are 65 per cent ANI, while Brahmins and Kshatriyas from Uttar Pradesh are 55-60 per cent ANI. When it comes to the mix of ANI and ASI, there are two rules of thumb one needs to consider. The further northwest you go, the more ANI you will get. Upper castes have more ANI ancestry as well (Bengalis and Munda tribes have East Asian heritage that is neither ANI nor ASI). This is exactly the pattern you would expect from Y chromosomal lineages such as R1a1a, which many geneticists posit have arrived from Central Asia in the last 4,000-5,000 years.

Indian observers of historical population genetics have noted these findings and integrated them into their own understanding. Sanyal says he believes "Indians are the mix of several genetic streams, particularly the ANI and ASI who have been living in the Indian subcontinent from the Stone Age". Moorjani states that her "study did not specifically look into the direction of migration". But, she also admits that "the direction of migration leading to ANI is probably into India".

dnafour_072817060907.jpg


Why would Moorjani state this? First, let us take a step back and address two points of the Out of India framework. As Sanyal observed, the archaeological connections between South Asia and Central Asia are tenuous. The Aryans do not seem to recollect a time before India. But the past 10 years of discoveries of ancient DNA have shown us there were mass migrations where archaeologists suspected none. The physical record is incomplete, and it may be difficult to connect with the broader patterns of history. But part of it is that some populations, such as nomads, likely do not leave much of an archaeological footprint. As for the argument based on Indian religious and oral history, it must be observed that the Greeks also do not have any memory before Greece, and yet they are just as antique an Indo-European people. The argument about cultural memory alone cannot be trusted to adjudicate on this matter.

Which brings us to what could ultimately resolve uncertainties: ancient DNA. The testing of samples from the Near East and Europe over the period between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago has shown that a few pulses of migration mixed together to create the predominant genetic patterns we see around us today. We do have a reasonable sampling of ancient individuals from the Near East, Central Asia and Europe, and what we see are massive population changes over the past 10,000 years. Should we expect India to be any different?

For the purposes of an understanding of the South Asian genetic landscape, two ancient populations from Western Eurasia share strong affinities with people from the subcontinent. First, the earliest farmers of Western Iran, in the Zagros, whose heritage is now found all across Eurasia, evince high affinities with many Indian populations. Second, Copper Age pastoralists of the Yamna culture of the Pontic steppe, who flourished 4,000 to 5,500 years ago, also exhibit a strong affinity to South Asians, in particular populations from the northwest and upper caste groups such as Brahmins.

Researchers in David Reich's lab at Harvard have tested what possible groups could be combined to create the ANI element in South Asians. After exhaustive comparisons, they find ANI is best modelled as a combination of the Pontic pastoralists and early Neolithic Iranian farmers!

In The Ocean of Churn, the thesis is presented that ideas and people move in a bidirectional fashion. Indian religious and philosophical ideas did impact the West through Pythagoras and Plato. Conversely, many Indian alphabets quite likely have their origins in the Near East, while Christianity and Islam have both taken root in the subcontinent.

So too with genes. South Asian genetic markers are found in Southeast Asia, from Thailand to Bali. Conversely, Bengalis, Assamese and Munda peoples show their Southeast Asian heritage on their faces, their genes, and in the case of the Munda, their languages. But this idea of ubiquitous gene flow has limitations.

The distinctive genetic heritage of India, the ASI component, deeply rooted in the subcontinent and not closely related to populations elsewhere, exists in low proportions in Iran and Afghanistan. But with the exception of the Roma people, ASI ancestry is notably absent throughout Western Eurasia aside from India's near neighbours. This suggests there has been very little westward movement out of India over the past few thousand years because, as Moorjani observed, all Indian populations have ASI ancestry within the past 4,000 years.

dnafive_072817122533.jpg


"The genetic imprint of this migration (into India) is minimal... there were groups living in India in the bronze age with similar ancestry"

Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Geneticist

Many geneticists now believe a major migration of people from Central Eurasia and West Asia into South Asia during the Neolithic and Copper age is the simplest and most parsimonious model to explain the data we have. The Out of India model is not theoretically impossible, but it strikes many as far-fetched and a stretch to explain the pattern of the accumulated data.

To move beyond probabilities, we need to make recourse to what has rescued us in the past: ancient DNA. Unfortunately, there is currently no ancient DNA data from South Asia proper. Even now, researchers are trying to get genetic results from samples at Rakhigarhi in Haryana dating to the Harappan period. Supposition can quickly be replaced with certitude when we sample these individuals. India Today learns that results of the Rakhigarhi samples will be announced in early September this year. Dr Vasant Shinde, an archaeologist at Deccan College, Pune, which conducted this project in collaboration with geneticists from Seoul National University, is understandably reluctant to offer any pointers as to what the Rakhigarhi samples suggest. "It's very politically sensitive," he says. But given the fact that the graves from which DNA was extracted were dated to somewhere between "2300 and 2500 BC", the same period in which Martin Richards and his colleagues suggest a pulse of migration from the Pontic-Caspian region into India, it must remain a possibility that Rakhigarhi will yield R1a1a DNA and not settle the debate.

And yet this is just one site. There are hundreds of samples for Europe and the Near East, and from those hundreds we have gleaned startling results. At some point, there will be hundreds of samples from South Asia, and there is no doubt we will glean some fascinating results.

The tide in historical population genetics has turned towards migration, but some still hold to the model of continuity dominant in the 2000s. Gyaneshwer Chaubey has been publishing and researching human genetics for over 10 years, with a substantial contribution in the area of Indian population history. He is not persuaded by the hypothesis of a mass Aryan migration. Rather, he observes that published research has shown that "the genetic imprint of this migration (if we want to maintain any) is minimal".

Without ancient DNA, we can only perceive broad coarse outlines from the variation of living human beings; fragments of the past, rearranged and reconstructed using statistical frameworks and data from people alive today. Our conjectures have assumptions. Chaubey does not deny the data showing Neolithic Iranian farmers and Copper Age Pontic pastoralists having genetic similarities to modern Indians. He argues for an equal probability that groups that "lived in India in the Bronze Age or in Neolithic time having quite similar ancestry as the Steppe belt populations or Neolithic Iranians?" By reframing assumptions, he also disagrees with the revision in regard to the history of R1a1a. He admits that R1a1a was the primary reason he took himself off the BMC paper. Though unconvincing to many, Chaubey's rationale does have a basis in theory and data. The disagreement is on the matter of probabilities. This is not uncommon in statistical genetics. Ancient DNA should resolve many of these disputes rather soon, but this issue is overly politicised.

We do know some things. Geneticists have confirmed divergences of caste and region in the genomes of Indians. A great deal of mixing seems to have occurred over the past 4,000 years. Before that period, much of the subcontinent was inhabited by people genetically very different from those alive today. By coincidence, or perhaps not, the extremely common R1a1a paternal lineage, which binds many Indian men to Europeans and Central Asians, begins to expand rapidly just as the last major mixing event in South Asia between ANI and ASI lineages occurred.

Prominent population genetics laboratories that have reshaped our understanding of the history of Europe and the Near East through ancient DNA studies are now looking to India. It won't be long before new tools are brought to bear on old contentious questions. One can no longer say that the thesis that Indo-Aryans arrived in the subcontinent in large numbers is refuted. Connections to ancient groups outside of the subcontinent seem highly likely, and many prominent geneticists are now promoting a viewpoint predicated on migration and population turnover, which seems to have been the norm in Europe and the Near East.

Yet there remain credible scientists at prominent institutions who are sceptical of the new models. While a new consensus may be emerging, it has not crystallised. Genetics can speak in broad strokes with errors of the order of a thousand years here or there, and each new discovery refines details of the broader picture. We are in a time of significant transition and great intellectual ferment. That ferment extends to politics. Just as the original Aryan invasion model was promoted on a political basis, so are Out of India theories given political validity. But the reality is that these models of human history are either true, or they are not. Whether or not they were discernible, the facts have always been with us. It is our political interpretation of them that seems to change. Humans are protean, but nature is timeless.

We see through a glass darkly. In a few years, it may be crystal clear that a new people arrived in the Indian subcontinent 4,000 years ago. That now seems to be the belief among the majority of prominent researchers. A century of theorising and ideologising has armed us with answers and objections, but history as unveiled by genetics may hold some bracing surprises for our rigid grandiose pretensions. That may be the most exciting aspect of these lines of research, not how they align with century-old arguments.

Razib Khan is a geneticist with an interest in population histories and personal genomics. He works at Insitome and is a Ph.D candidate at UC Davis. He writes the blog 'Gene Expression'.

Source: Aryan wars: Controversy over new study claiming they came from the west 4,000 years ago

@S. A. T. A

Cheers, Doc
 
This is infuriating at so many levels..

Sanghis : We consider Parsis to be our brothers
VsDoc : I hate Sanghis, you claim India is for only Hindus
Sanghis : bro, I just said I consider Parsis to be as much Indian as Hindus.
VsDoc : Look at the Sanghi just said he hates Parsis and India is only for Hindus.

Sanghi slaps himself and stays away,
it's like arguing with your wife, no chance of winning.

You came in late.

Either I am @vstol Jockey 's daddy

Or he is mine.

We cannot be brothers.

Cheers, Doc
 
Indian paper by A Basu et al, from the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, West Bengal. Throws interesting light on the genetics behind the Hindu caste structure and when it solidified.

Pretty much in line with the other research we have been discussing.

Also that Indians are not just two racial groups colliding but as many as FIVE (or at least four if you take the Andamans out).

Cheers, Doc

P.S. Hope the pdf shows. It's downloaded on my phone in any case.

@S. A. T. A

Cheers, Doc
 

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Nearly every person who has commented on the Aryan theory, had clearly mentioned Rig Veda as the earliest book related to so Called Aryans. While they accept this fact, they fail to read what is written in that. We have very clear mention of people of India being expelled from India in 8-10K BC. These expelled people did return to India either as merchants or as invaders from time to time. This explains why the vedic Aryans had such similarity with these people from steppes and Europe. I still very much say that if you believe in Aryans, than believe in Rig Veda also. How can anyone have a belief in bits and pieces.
 
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Nearly every person who has commented on the Aryan theory, had clearly mentioned Rig Veda as the earliest book related to so Called Aryans. While they accept this fact, they fail to read what is written in that. We have very clear mention of people of India being expelled from India in 8-10K BC. These expelled people did return to India either as merchants or as invaders from time to time. This explains why the vedic Aryans had such similarity with these people from steppes and Europe. I still very much say that if you believe in Aryans, than believe in Rig Veda also. How can anyone have a belief in bits and pieces.

The Rig Veda like the early Gathas has been passed down verbally for around 2000 years max (the range most papers put is 1000-1500 years before it was written).

There is no way then that you can have references to 8000-10000 BC .... not to mention that a book written at the time would not be mentioning dates as BC but as in hundreds or thousands of years. From the dateline of writing.

Or circumstantial temporally correlated epochal evidence from events mentioned.

Either way I would put a lot more stock in modern genetics than mythology. And am confident that now that the direction of migration is nearly without doubt into India, soon with more ancient genetic evidence from within India we will have a lot more interesting information coming in as well.

It is also noteworthy that Iranian blood has no links of ASI at all. While Indian blood has links to Iranian plateau DNA. Not just the ANi but ASI as well. This is actually the clincher for me.

Not to mention that ancient texts from Iran mention just the Hapta Hindu .... as the outermost reach of bloodline stretch.

That is where modern genetics now shows clearly the mixing happened. Both IVC and beyond.

We had no presence further and beyond that period.

From there it was all our Vedic cousins.

Cheers, Doc
 
Last edited:
Nearly every person who has commented on the Aryan theory, had clearly mentioned Rig Veda as the earliest book related to so Called Aryans. While they accept this fact, they fail to read what is written in that. We have very clear mention of people of India being expelled from India in 8-10K BC. These expelled people did return to India either as merchants or as invaders from time to time. This explains why the vedic Aryans had such similarity with these people from steppes and Europe. I still very much say that if you believe in Aryans, than believe in Rig Veda also. How can anyone have a belief in bits and pieces.

There is a danger of taking the things mentioned in the vedic texts too literally. To begin with vedic texts were not meant to be a historical document or chronology of events. The commentators of the Vedas treated it as a religious treatise. While the texts may contain nuggets of historical information, unless that information is independently verified, its best to treat such info with circumspect. You only need to to go through Griffiths translation of the Rgveda, especially the footnotes he provides on what he thinks are historical details, to see how every verse can be twisted to thresh out some historical details from it.
 
There is a danger of taking the things mentioned in the vedic texts too literally. To begin with vedic texts were not meant to be a historical document or chronology of events. The commentators of the Vedas treated it as a religious treatise. While the texts may contain nuggets of historical information, unless that information is independently verified, its best to treat such info with circumspect. You only need to to go through Griffiths translation of the Rgveda, especially the footnotes he provides on what he thinks are historical details, to see how every verse can be twisted to thresh out some historical details from it.
Vedas are also part historical records just like Puranas.
 
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Aryan wars: Controversy over new study claiming they came from the west 4,000 years ago
A historical debate gets political again as new genetics research suggests our Aryan ancestors came in from the west over 4,000 years ago.

d our ancestors come from? This can be a highly emotional, and political issue.

It is clearly an important question for many people and one that modern genetics has answered to a great extent. In recent months, a scientific paper published in the journal BMC Evolutionary Biology has sparked a heated controversy in the Indian mediaby outlining an 'Indo-European expansion, with an ultimate source in the Pontic-Caspian region' into the Indian subcontinent.

Behind the gently arcane scholarly language, the paper argues that the genetic ancestry of all modern Indians displays evidence of significant mixing with populations that moved to the subcontinent from northern Iran and the Caspian region some 4,000-5,000 years ago. Tempers are fraying because these findings have reignited a long-simmering and highly politicised debate about the ancient origins of the Vedic 'Aryans'. For decades, historians, linguists and archaeologists have debated the relationship of the Aryans to India, with little resolution, indeed the argument has been subsumed by its implications for the contemporary battles between the hyper-nationalist politics associated with the Sangh parivar and the secular liberal opposition. Many Hindu nationalists are uncomfortable with the idea that the ancient roots of the Indian peoples may lie outside the sacred geography of the subcontinent. Meanwhile, there is often an element of liberal schadenfreude in embracing the narrative that suggests a parallel between the Vedic Aryans as conquering 'invaders', not unlike the later visitations of Islamic and European empires.

Over the last few years, genetics has begun to offer its own findings, which much more definitively indicate that a people, who may have been Aryans, moved into the subcontinent approximately 4,000-5,000 years ago. Soon, the field of ancient DNA research may close the case. The BMC paper that has drawn so much interest and ire is just the latest in a line of research that goes back decades, and grows more precise and insightful with every new technological advance. By looking at patterns of genetic markers in modern humans, geneticists have been able to sketch the family tree of our species. Researchers are also testing genetic material from remains tens of thousands of years old. It has already highlighted the Neanderthal heritage extant today in all humans outside of Africa.

Because genetic science has been driven by US-based researchers, biases have crept into the sort of questions asked. But the democratisation of the field, due to a surfeit of data, is now enabling exploration of more diverse topics, including questions related to the Indian subcontinent.

Eurocentric ideologies have spawned their own counter-theses. While, in 1903, the Indian nationalist Bal Gangadhar Tilak could write The Arctic Home in the Vedas, in keeping with the migrationist beliefs of the era, today, Indophilic westerners such as Koenraad Elst are promoting an 'Out of India' theory, an inversion of the older route.

These arguments exist outside of politics and nationalism. The author Sanjeev Sanyal contends that "the idea of a unidirectional 'Aryan' invasion or migration around 1500 BC is now conclusively proven to be wrong". As outlined in his book, The Ocean of Churn, Sanyal emphasises the reciprocal movements of peoples. He notes that archaeology does not tie any Indus Valley civilisation site to Central Asia, and the Vedas themselves seem ignorant of geography outside of South Asia.

dnaone_072817081219.jpg


Ten years ago, one could reasonably support Sanyal's suppositions from a genetic perspective. The exploration of mitochondrial lineages, the direct maternal ancestry out of Africa, remained the dominant method of inference. That line of evidence strongly suggests that South Asian populations are deeply rooted in the subcontinent.

Other researchers were looking at the descent of males, the direct paternal lineage as recorded by mutations of the Y chromosome. The evidence from these results was more equivocal. One of the more common South Asian Y lineages, R1a1a, is also very common in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. The discoverer of this lineage, the geneticist Spencer Wells, says that his work "in the late 1990s strongly supported a significant migration from the steppes of Eastern Europe and Central Asia into India in the past 5,000 years". Wells connected this to Indo-European speaking nomads, and believes the latest results have borne that out. Obviously, this is in conflict with the mitochondrial results. Because R1a1a is not very diverse, it was difficult to get a sense of where or when it may have originated. Many researchers, contra Wells, contended that R1a1a may have been indigenous to South Asia.

Today, we know more about R1a1a than we did in the 2000s. Whereas then researchers looked at a few hundred markers on the Y chromosome, or perhaps some regions with very high diversity, today they can sequence most of the Y chromosome.

In line with Wells' original suspicion, after looking at whole genomes, many scholars now surmise that R1a1a entered South Asia within the last 4,000-5,000 years from the Eurasian steppe. The reason R1a1a is not diverse is that it underwent a massive, recent expansion; not much time has elapsed for mutations to accumulate. With whole genome analysis, one can see that East European R1a1a is one lineage, while Central Asian and South Asian R1a1a strains form another. Martin Richards, co-author of the paper in BMC, explains, "This high resolution allows for both very detailed genealogical information and quite precise genetic dating, so we can see where and when lineages branch off into a new territory."

dnatwo_072817122533.jpg


"There is a very marked sex bias in the arrival [in India] of new peoples from the steppe zone during the bronze age"

Martin Richards, Archaeogenetics professor

Ancient DNA has also shed light on the relationship of the various branches of R1a1a. Extinct Central Asian steppe pastoralists, the Scythians, and their geographic kin, the Srubna people, who dwelt north of the Caspian Sea 3,750 years ago, also carry this Y lineage. It is notable that the R1a1a lineages of Scythians and Srubna are the same as Central Asians and South Asians, not Europeans.

A resolution to the paradox of mtDNA and Y chromosomal lineages pointing in different directions has now presented itself. The answer: migration into India was not sex balanced. This is a major point in the BMC paper. Richards states, "There's a very marked sex bias in the arrival of new peoples from, ultimately, the steppe zone of eastern Europe, in the Bronze Age." (This is the case in Europe too, with steppe migrants overwhelmingly male.)

Our understanding today does not rest on Y chromosome and mtDNA alone. With whole genomes available for analysis, scientists have reshaped our understanding of the past of South Asia. In 2013, geneticist Priya Moorjani and colleagues published research concluding that at least two very distinct populations were mixing in the Indian subcontinent 2,000-4,000 years ago. Moorjani says that "4,000 years ago, there were unmixed ANI and ASI groups in the Indian subcontinent".

dnathree_072817122533.jpg


"Some 4,000 years ago, there were unmixed 'ANI' and 'ASI' groups in the subcontinent... the direction of migration leading to ani was probably into India"

Priya Moorjani, Geneticist

ANI and ASI are acronyms for Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians. The former population was genetically very similar to Near Easterners and Europeans. One of the original researchers who developed this model of Indian origins, Nick Patterson, characterises the genetic distance between ANI and European populations as so small that if you did not know of the provenance you might say it was a European population. The ASI, in contrast, do not have any close relatives. Rather, they were distant relatives of indigenous Andaman islanders. Moorjani reiterates that though there were unmixed populations representative of these groups in the relatively recent past, today all native South Asian groups display ancestry from both.

In Moorjani's 2013 paper, she estimated that Dalits from Tamil Nadu are 40 per cent ANI (the remainder presumably being ASI). Pathans are 70 per cent ANI. Kashmiri Pandits are 65 per cent ANI, while Brahmins and Kshatriyas from Uttar Pradesh are 55-60 per cent ANI. When it comes to the mix of ANI and ASI, there are two rules of thumb one needs to consider. The further northwest you go, the more ANI you will get. Upper castes have more ANI ancestry as well (Bengalis and Munda tribes have East Asian heritage that is neither ANI nor ASI). This is exactly the pattern you would expect from Y chromosomal lineages such as R1a1a, which many geneticists posit have arrived from Central Asia in the last 4,000-5,000 years.

Indian observers of historical population genetics have noted these findings and integrated them into their own understanding. Sanyal says he believes "Indians are the mix of several genetic streams, particularly the ANI and ASI who have been living in the Indian subcontinent from the Stone Age". Moorjani states that her "study did not specifically look into the direction of migration". But, she also admits that "the direction of migration leading to ANI is probably into India".

dnafour_072817060907.jpg


Why would Moorjani state this? First, let us take a step back and address two points of the Out of India framework. As Sanyal observed, the archaeological connections between South Asia and Central Asia are tenuous. The Aryans do not seem to recollect a time before India. But the past 10 years of discoveries of ancient DNA have shown us there were mass migrations where archaeologists suspected none. The physical record is incomplete, and it may be difficult to connect with the broader patterns of history. But part of it is that some populations, such as nomads, likely do not leave much of an archaeological footprint. As for the argument based on Indian religious and oral history, it must be observed that the Greeks also do not have any memory before Greece, and yet they are just as antique an Indo-European people. The argument about cultural memory alone cannot be trusted to adjudicate on this matter.

Which brings us to what could ultimately resolve uncertainties: ancient DNA. The testing of samples from the Near East and Europe over the period between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago has shown that a few pulses of migration mixed together to create the predominant genetic patterns we see around us today. We do have a reasonable sampling of ancient individuals from the Near East, Central Asia and Europe, and what we see are massive population changes over the past 10,000 years. Should we expect India to be any different?

For the purposes of an understanding of the South Asian genetic landscape, two ancient populations from Western Eurasia share strong affinities with people from the subcontinent. First, the earliest farmers of Western Iran, in the Zagros, whose heritage is now found all across Eurasia, evince high affinities with many Indian populations. Second, Copper Age pastoralists of the Yamna culture of the Pontic steppe, who flourished 4,000 to 5,500 years ago, also exhibit a strong affinity to South Asians, in particular populations from the northwest and upper caste groups such as Brahmins.

Researchers in David Reich's lab at Harvard have tested what possible groups could be combined to create the ANI element in South Asians. After exhaustive comparisons, they find ANI is best modelled as a combination of the Pontic pastoralists and early Neolithic Iranian farmers!

In The Ocean of Churn, the thesis is presented that ideas and people move in a bidirectional fashion. Indian religious and philosophical ideas did impact the West through Pythagoras and Plato. Conversely, many Indian alphabets quite likely have their origins in the Near East, while Christianity and Islam have both taken root in the subcontinent.

So too with genes. South Asian genetic markers are found in Southeast Asia, from Thailand to Bali. Conversely, Bengalis, Assamese and Munda peoples show their Southeast Asian heritage on their faces, their genes, and in the case of the Munda, their languages. But this idea of ubiquitous gene flow has limitations.

The distinctive genetic heritage of India, the ASI component, deeply rooted in the subcontinent and not closely related to populations elsewhere, exists in low proportions in Iran and Afghanistan. But with the exception of the Roma people, ASI ancestry is notably absent throughout Western Eurasia aside from India's near neighbours. This suggests there has been very little westward movement out of India over the past few thousand years because, as Moorjani observed, all Indian populations have ASI ancestry within the past 4,000 years.

dnafive_072817122533.jpg


"The genetic imprint of this migration (into India) is minimal... there were groups living in India in the bronze age with similar ancestry"

Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Geneticist

Many geneticists now believe a major migration of people from Central Eurasia and West Asia into South Asia during the Neolithic and Copper age is the simplest and most parsimonious model to explain the data we have. The Out of India model is not theoretically impossible, but it strikes many as far-fetched and a stretch to explain the pattern of the accumulated data.

To move beyond probabilities, we need to make recourse to what has rescued us in the past: ancient DNA. Unfortunately, there is currently no ancient DNA data from South Asia proper. Even now, researchers are trying to get genetic results from samples at Rakhigarhi in Haryana dating to the Harappan period. Supposition can quickly be replaced with certitude when we sample these individuals. India Today learns that results of the Rakhigarhi samples will be announced in early September this year. Dr Vasant Shinde, an archaeologist at Deccan College, Pune, which conducted this project in collaboration with geneticists from Seoul National University, is understandably reluctant to offer any pointers as to what the Rakhigarhi samples suggest. "It's very politically sensitive," he says. But given the fact that the graves from which DNA was extracted were dated to somewhere between "2300 and 2500 BC", the same period in which Martin Richards and his colleagues suggest a pulse of migration from the Pontic-Caspian region into India, it must remain a possibility that Rakhigarhi will yield R1a1a DNA and not settle the debate.

And yet this is just one site. There are hundreds of samples for Europe and the Near East, and from those hundreds we have gleaned startling results. At some point, there will be hundreds of samples from South Asia, and there is no doubt we will glean some fascinating results.

The tide in historical population genetics has turned towards migration, but some still hold to the model of continuity dominant in the 2000s. Gyaneshwer Chaubey has been publishing and researching human genetics for over 10 years, with a substantial contribution in the area of Indian population history. He is not persuaded by the hypothesis of a mass Aryan migration. Rather, he observes that published research has shown that "the genetic imprint of this migration (if we want to maintain any) is minimal".

Without ancient DNA, we can only perceive broad coarse outlines from the variation of living human beings; fragments of the past, rearranged and reconstructed using statistical frameworks and data from people alive today. Our conjectures have assumptions. Chaubey does not deny the data showing Neolithic Iranian farmers and Copper Age Pontic pastoralists having genetic similarities to modern Indians. He argues for an equal probability that groups that "lived in India in the Bronze Age or in Neolithic time having quite similar ancestry as the Steppe belt populations or Neolithic Iranians?" By reframing assumptions, he also disagrees with the revision in regard to the history of R1a1a. He admits that R1a1a was the primary reason he took himself off the BMC paper. Though unconvincing to many, Chaubey's rationale does have a basis in theory and data. The disagreement is on the matter of probabilities. This is not uncommon in statistical genetics. Ancient DNA should resolve many of these disputes rather soon, but this issue is overly politicised.

We do know some things. Geneticists have confirmed divergences of caste and region in the genomes of Indians. A great deal of mixing seems to have occurred over the past 4,000 years. Before that period, much of the subcontinent was inhabited by people genetically very different from those alive today. By coincidence, or perhaps not, the extremely common R1a1a paternal lineage, which binds many Indian men to Europeans and Central Asians, begins to expand rapidly just as the last major mixing event in South Asia between ANI and ASI lineages occurred.

Prominent population genetics laboratories that have reshaped our understanding of the history of Europe and the Near East through ancient DNA studies are now looking to India. It won't be long before new tools are brought to bear on old contentious questions. One can no longer say that the thesis that Indo-Aryans arrived in the subcontinent in large numbers is refuted. Connections to ancient groups outside of the subcontinent seem highly likely, and many prominent geneticists are now promoting a viewpoint predicated on migration and population turnover, which seems to have been the norm in Europe and the Near East.

Yet there remain credible scientists at prominent institutions who are sceptical of the new models. While a new consensus may be emerging, it has not crystallised. Genetics can speak in broad strokes with errors of the order of a thousand years here or there, and each new discovery refines details of the broader picture. We are in a time of significant transition and great intellectual ferment. That ferment extends to politics. Just as the original Aryan invasion model was promoted on a political basis, so are Out of India theories given political validity. But the reality is that these models of human history are either true, or they are not. Whether or not they were discernible, the facts have always been with us. It is our political interpretation of them that seems to change. Humans are protean, but nature is timeless.

We see through a glass darkly. In a few years, it may be crystal clear that a new people arrived in the Indian subcontinent 4,000 years ago. That now seems to be the belief among the majority of prominent researchers. A century of theorising and ideologising has armed us with answers and objections, but history as unveiled by genetics may hold some bracing surprises for our rigid grandiose pretensions. That may be the most exciting aspect of these lines of research, not how they align with century-old arguments.

Razib Khan is a geneticist with an interest in population histories and personal genomics. He works at Insitome and is a Ph.D candidate at UC Davis. He writes the blog 'Gene Expression'.

Source: Aryan wars: Controversy over new study claiming they came from the west 4,000 years ago

@S. A. T. A

Cheers, Doc

The discussion centers around the same findings of the Harvard team, led by Dr Reich. Except about the tidbit from the Rakhigarhi dna sample. As far as I know the team investigating the Rakhigarhi sample has not officially published their findings. Vasant Shinde, the lead archaeologist working at Rakhigarhi, has although published a detailed report on the excavation of the cemetery complex in Rakhigarhi and provides insight on mortuary rituals that were practiced.

Another possibility that we can consider, regarding the common ancestry shared by the ANI with the west eurasian and steppe group is that such sharing could have occurred before the bronze age. What the paper is suggesting was that before the pastoralist steppe group enters the gene pool, Neolithic framers from western Iran interacted with the ancient hunter gatherer social group in North west India to form the ANI element.

One of the proposed hypothesis for the expansion of the the Indo-European languages into Europe, by prof Collin Renfrew of Cambridge, was spread of farming communities from Anatolia (turkey) into Europe around 7000 BCE. Now if we extend this argument, the same Neolithic farming expansion, the branch going eastwards, could be the genetic base for the west eurasian group that enters NW India and forms at least one of the core group of the IVC. If this same Neolithic farming group entered India and Europe, may be this explains the shared ancestry between ancestral groups of Europe and India. This probably doesn't explain the shared ancestry with the steppe. May be steppe group interacted with the eurasian group separately and inherited the ancestry.
 
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