T-90 Bhishma / T-72 Ajeya of Indian Army : News and Discussions

Amit228

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Mar 31, 2019
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Pakistani army use depleted uranium round nazia, is their any Indian equivalent of du rounds? And aren't these t90 ms meant for Western border instead of Chinese border.

Svinets-1 will come.Svinets-2 is DU round,don't think its for export.Still 750 mm with svinets-1 is much much better - 50% improvement over current mango at 500 mm at 2km.
 

Austerlitz

Well-Known member
Jun 2, 2018
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Kolkata
Pakistani army use depleted uranium round nazia, is their any Indian equivalent of du rounds? And aren't these t90 ms meant for Western border instead of Chinese border.

Unknown.Classified whether exists or not.DU not used in peacetime due to chance of affecting crew with radiation.
T-90 ms are for the armoured regiments of the independent armoured brigades on the china border(ladakh,sikkim,arunachal) and mountain strike corps.Current t-90 bhisma can handle al-khalid and t-80ud that pak have.Older pak tanks like al zarrar and type-59 are basically upgraded t-55s and totally obsolete.We have 1400- 1600 odd t-90 bhismas already,twice the number of khalid and t-80s put together.On top of that we have 2000-2400 t-72s with atleast over 1000 of them upgraded.They still carry their infantry in armoured personnel carrier of vietnam war era,our bmp-2 while getting old is full fledged ICV.Pak armour is no match for us.Especially with addition of K9 vajra,apache and lch gunships and cbu-105 anti armour cluster bombs on jaguars.
 

Amit228

Member
Mar 31, 2019
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32
India
Yeah i concur but pak army is also not sitting ideal they are also inducting new mbts, which could be either of Chinese much touted vt4 or oplot. They even can ask for t90ms as there were some news about it in Russian nd Pakistani media circle. I think they will ultimately go for Chinese vt4 provided china does some tweeks to make it desert capable. Vt4 is capable enough. However in between frcv project is not in sight. What has happened to it? Any timeline when it will begin? Or else Indian army is interested in t14 armata as frcv?
Unknown.Classified whether exists or not.DU not used in peacetime due to chance of affecting crew with radiation.
T-90 ms are for the armoured regiments of the independent armoured brigades on the china border(ladakh,sikkim,arunachal) and mountain strike corps.Current t-90 bhisma can handle al-khalid and t-80ud that pak have.Older pak tanks like al zarrar and type-59 are basically upgraded t-55s and totally obsolete.We have 1400- 1600 odd t-90 bhismas already,twice the number of khalid and t-80s put together.On top of that we have 2000-2400 t-72s with atleast over 1000 of them upgraded.They still carry their infantry in armoured personnel carrier of vietnam war era,our bmp-2 while getting old is full fledged ICV.Pak armour is no match for us.Especially with addition of K9 vajra,apache and lch gunships and cbu-105 anti armour cluster bombs on jaguars.
 

Austerlitz

Well-Known member
Jun 2, 2018
358
707
Kolkata
Yeah i concur but pak army is also not sitting ideal they are also inducting new mbts, which could be either of Chinese much touted vt4 or oplot. They even can ask for t90ms as there were some news about it in Russian nd Pakistani media circle. I think they will ultimately go for Chinese vt4 provided china does some tweeks to make it desert capable. Vt4 is capable enough. However in between frcv project is not in sight. What has happened to it? Any timeline when it will begin? Or else Indian army is interested in t14 armata as frcv?

FICV is stuck because no great urgency for it.For now BMP-2 being upgraded.I'm sure we will get armatas once it matures as a platform in future.Armata and FMBT will probably be our future tank combo.Pakistanis right now lack money for any big inductions,they cant even induct new rifles.
 

Himanshu

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Dec 3, 2017
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indopacfront.blogspot.com
Yeah i concur but pak army is also not sitting ideal they are also inducting new mbts, which could be either of Chinese much touted vt4 or oplot. They even can ask for t90ms as there were some news about it in Russian nd Pakistani media circle. I think they will ultimately go for Chinese vt4 provided china does some tweeks to make it desert capable. Vt4 is capable enough. However in between frcv project is not in sight. What has happened to it? Any timeline when it will begin? Or else Indian army is interested in t14 armata as frcv?
China is asking too much money for VT-4, so neither party is interested now. Oplot failed trials. That's why they ask for T-90 cuz even AL-Khalid is more costly than T-90s. Since India is buying more T-90s, we might see some progress now.


Armata and FMBT will probably be our future tank combo.
FRCV is not a priority that's why we're buying more T-90s for the time being.

FICV is stuck because no great urgency for it.
FICV is not stuck, OFB is working on it.
 

Amit228

Member
Mar 31, 2019
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Yeah vt4 cost more. But its a mean machine only problem being it had some issues in desert heat. I think Pakistani have communicated the same to Chinese and eventually Chinese will make it desert capable. Money i think won't be much of an issue just like the Chinese provided soft loans on 8 submarines, they can provide it again. China has clear strategic interest in Pakistan, to them Pakistan makes a perfect foil to curb India's rise in South Asia. It is quite possible that Pak army will order 400+ vt4 mbts from china and will name it al- haider a la they did with type 2000mbt. Any other options of oplot or t90 ms, i think they can't exercise it as it will require hard cash which in current scenario is inconceivable with their economy in shambles. So Pak army can test everything under the sun but eventually their final resort will be to acquire Chinese mbts, it's not a questions of if but when. Let's see what pans outs.

China is asking too much money for VT-4, so neither party is interested now. Oplot failed trials. That's why they ask for T-90 cuz even AL-Khalid is more costly than T-90s. Since India is buying more T-90s, we might see some progress now.



FRCV is not a priority that's why we're buying more T-90s for the time being.


FICV is not stuck, OFB is working on it.
 
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Ashwin

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India MoD Urges Russia to Boost Local Production of T-90MS Tanks Before Purchase

India’s Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), headed by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, has approved a $1.93 billion procurement of 464 Russian-made T-90MS main battle tanks (MBTs), but the Ministry of Defence has additional conditions before signing the contract.

The T-90MS tanks are to be produced by the state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory under license from the original Russian equipment manufacturer Uralvagonzavod, according to Defence News. However, India wants Uralvagonzavod to increase local production of the tanks from 40 percent to 80 percent, said a senior MoD official.

A senior official with the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board said: ”Till now India has received 310 plus 347 T-90 tanks from Russia, whether fully formed or assembled in Heavy Vehicles Factory," yet added that full localization is an impossibility as a large amount of the assembly process will be imported.

A senior Indian Army official cited by Defence News noted that the gunnery portion of the tank comes “factory-fitted from Russia, with some minor equipment being made by OFB.” The OFB does not produce engines or transmissions, which are approximately 40 percent of the cost of a T-90MS tank. Another Army official noted the lack of a robust technology transfer deal.

The MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council approved the procurement of the 464 MS MBTs in November 2016. The new tanks are expected to form the core of 10 armoured regiments. The Indian Army currently fields over 3,000 MBTs divided into around 65 armoured regiments.
 

vstol Jockey

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Dec 1, 2017
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India MoD Urges Russia to Boost Local Production of T-90MS Tanks Before Purchase

India’s Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), headed by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, has approved a $1.93 billion procurement of 464 Russian-made T-90MS main battle tanks (MBTs), but the Ministry of Defence has additional conditions before signing the contract.

The T-90MS tanks are to be produced by the state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory under license from the original Russian equipment manufacturer Uralvagonzavod, according to Defence News. However, India wants Uralvagonzavod to increase local production of the tanks from 40 percent to 80 percent, said a senior MoD official.

A senior official with the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board said: ”Till now India has received 310 plus 347 T-90 tanks from Russia, whether fully formed or assembled in Heavy Vehicles Factory," yet added that full localization is an impossibility as a large amount of the assembly process will be imported.

A senior Indian Army official cited by Defence News noted that the gunnery portion of the tank comes “factory-fitted from Russia, with some minor equipment being made by OFB.” The OFB does not produce engines or transmissions, which are approximately 40 percent of the cost of a T-90MS tank. Another Army official noted the lack of a robust technology transfer deal.

The MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council approved the procurement of the 464 MS MBTs in November 2016. The new tanks are expected to form the core of 10 armoured regiments. The Indian Army currently fields over 3,000 MBTs divided into around 65 armoured regiments.
Not gonna happen till we order T-14 Armata. They dont have money to make them so they will force India to buy them at a price which will be atleast 2-3 times the cost price and than use the profits to make it for themselves.
 
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randomradio

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Not gonna happen till we order T-14 Armata. They dont have money to make them so they will force India to buy them at a price which will be atleast 2-3 times the cost price and than use the profits to make it for themselves.

‘Made in India’ tank engines handed over to the Army
Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman on Saturday, handed over two fully indigenous battle tank engines, V-46-6 and V92S2, that power the T-72 Ajeya tank and the T-90 Bhishma tank, produced by the Engine Factory Avadi (EFA), a unit of Ordnance Factory Board, to the Vice Chief of Army Staff.

Sitharaman releases 'Made-in-india' multi-fuel war tank engines to Army
EFA will be manufacturing the two engines with 100 per cent Indian made parts, according to an official release.

So we have already indigenised the older T-90S engine. I don't see why the same cannot be done for the T-90MS's engine also.
 
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randomradio

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Will Russians transfer the tech? No they will not till they get their pound of flash.

We have an alternative engine program to upgrade our older T-90s with a new modular engine, as much as 1200-1500HP. It's superior to the engine on the T-90MS. So it's better for the Russians if we continue choosing their engine, or risk getting it replaced in the next few years.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/makeinindia/importantinformation/5.pdf

So it's either continue business with ToT for many more years or risk losing business permanently.
 

vstol Jockey

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Dec 1, 2017
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We have an alternative engine program to upgrade our older T-90s with a new modular engine, as much as 1200-1500HP. It's superior to the engine on the T-90MS. So it's better for the Russians if we continue choosing their engine, or risk getting it replaced in the next few years.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/makeinindia/importantinformation/5.pdf

So it's either continue business with ToT for many more years or risk losing business permanently.
If that was so, why did russians hold back transfer of tech for engine and why did we have to kneel to them? The truth is that Russians have refused to share a lot of data about T-90s with India as they know that we have better engine to upgrade T-90s and Isreali avionics to make it superior to the T-90MS they are now selling us. Its balckmail at work.
 

Ashwin

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We have an alternative engine program to upgrade our older T-90s with a new modular engine, as much as 1200-1500HP. It's superior to the engine on the T-90MS. So it's better for the Russians if we continue choosing their engine, or risk getting it replaced in the next few years.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/makeinindia/importantinformation/5.pdf

So it's either continue business with ToT for many more years or risk losing business permanently.
Its a wishlist to the industry not an under development program.

1500hp DRDO engine project is for Arjun not T90.
 
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randomradio

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If that was so, why did russians hold back transfer of tech for engine and why did we have to kneel to them? The truth is that Russians have refused to share a lot of data about T-90s with India as they know that we have better engine to upgrade T-90s and Isreali avionics to make it superior to the T-90MS they are now selling us. Its balckmail at work.

There are a few reasons. Not just the engine, but overall, one of the most important reasons is the Russians had to change their own laws for export control, which took quite a few years. Also, we had not negotiated for enough ToT initially, so everything had to be renegotiated. Which is why indigenisation had been delayed and we went for a second batch of 347 tanks from Russia in 2007.

Nobody is kneeling to them. We are in fact indigenising whatever we can, which has been quite a lot.

As for T-90MS's electronics, theirs surpassed our requirement, we don't have to replace it with overpriced Israeli stuff. Nothing is blackmail, it's all the seller's prerogative, the same reason why Israeli stuff is overpriced. If we replace electronics on the T-90MS right away, it's going to become much more expensive.

If you say we need to buy Armata so that we can get ToT for the T-90s, then it's far from the truth. More than 80% of the T-90 has already been indigenised. In fact, you can say that over the next few years, only the gun will remain Russian on the T-90S. Also, our next tank, GoI wants to own 100% of the IP, so there's no way the Russians will hand over the IPR of the Armata. The Armata won't meet requirements anyway, like amphibious capability.
 
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randomradio

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Its a wishlist to the industry not an under development program.

1500hp DRDO engine project is for Arjun not T90.

That's fine. This will be a Make-I program, which makes it a program for the private industry mainly. But it looks like the T-90S will get an Indian-owned engine and transmission system in the long run. I suppose the army intends to bypass OFB for new engines.

Arjun's engine is entirely different.
 

LoneWolfSandeep

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Dec 25, 2017
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Future Ready Combat Vehicle: South Korean ready to build FRCV armoured vehicle under Make in India

By: Huma Siddiqui |
Published: April 25, 2019 7:14:03 PM
The contest for the programme includes a design competition in which major defence companies involved in tank building will be participating through RFP and the best design will be chosen and given to an appointed developing agency for production of the prototypes.

cats-1192.jpg

The Indian Army as part of its modernisation plans is keen on replacing its old fleet of 2,414 Soviet-origin T-72 tanks.

South Korea based Hyundai Rotem is ready to produce $ 5 billion Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV) for the Mechanised Forces in compliance with `Make in India’ policy, if it is awarded the contract to build more than 2000 units.
An FRCV, not to be confused with Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) is an armoured platform that will be used primarily for the Main Battle Tank (MBT). The Indian Army as part of its modernisation plans is keen on replacing its old fleet of 2,414 Soviet-origin T-72 tanks. If all goes as per the schedule, the FRCVs are expected to enter service between 2025-27.
According to top company executives, “The Company is now waiting to have second round of meeting with the Directorate General Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which is expected to take place next month in New Delhi.”
The company has already responded to the RFI (Request for Information) issued by the DGMF in November 2017, which specified the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) should offer technology transfer, the platform should have 40 percent indigenous content, and create ecosystems, life cycle costs and upgrade plans to build.
The South Korean Company attended its first meeting in New Delhi last August. The OEM has to tie up with a Strategic Partner to produce the units in India.
The RFI for the FRCV issued in 2017 is under the ‘Make’ category and the provisions of the Armoured Fighting Vehicle segment of ‘Strategic Partnership’ model route as per Chapter – VII as per the Defence Procurement Procedure—2016.
The vehicle is supposed to be medium weight (45-50 ton) and with a platform which can operate in various terrains including developed, desert terrain and in high altitude areas across the wide spectrum of conflict. “Keeping in mind the changing scenarios of the battlefield which will be technology driven, the FRCV platform must not only be fit for future wars but should have the capability to be used on other specialised fighting vehicles,” explained a senior officer.
Indian Army is keen on a FRCV which is similar to the Russian T-14 Armata, Ukrainian Oplot, French LeClerc and South Korean K2 Black Panther main battle tanks. Since the German Leopard and the American M1 Abrams are weighing heavy, they don’t fit the specifications laid down in the RFI for the FRCV.
Besides South Korean company, there are other global companies who responded to RFI include, UK based BAE Systems of the UK., General Dynamics of the US, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann of Germany, Nexter of France, Polski Holding Obronny of Poland, Rosoboronexport of Russia, and Ukrainexport of Ukraine.
Major Indian private companies ― including Mahindra Group, Bharat Forge, Punj Lloyd, Tata Power SED, Tata Motors, Reliance Defence and Engineering Limited, Titagarh Wagons, and Tractors India ― are keen on participating in the manufacturing of FRCVs in a joint venture with foreign OEMs.
The contest for the programme includes a design competition in which major defence companies involved in tank building will be participating through RFP and the best design will be chosen and given to an appointed developing agency for production of the prototypes.
The FRCVs will have multiple variants: The primary variant of tracked main battle tank; tracked light tank; wheeled version; bridge layer tank; trawl tank; mine ploughs; armoured recovery vehicle; self-propelled artillery gun/howitzer; air-defense gun/missile system; artillery observation post vehicle; engineer reconnaissance vehicle; and armoured ambulance role.

Source: Future Ready Combat Vehicle: South Korean ready to build FRCV armoured vehicle under Make in India