T-90 Bhishma / T-72 Ajeya of Indian Army : News and Discussions

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,887
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India
There was another deal for 354 T90MS which got cleared few years ago, was it signed?

AFAIK, it didn't go anywhere. Let's not forget the deal for 354 was under UPA, so it was obviously killed by Modi. IIRC, the deal for 354 was for direct import while the deal for 464 will come with license production. So an overall much better deal now.
 
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Ankit Kumar

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
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AFAIK, it didn't go anywhere. Let's not forget the deal for 354 was under UPA, so it was obviously killed by Modi. IIRC, the deal for 354 was for direct import while the deal for 464 will come with license production. So an overall much better deal now.
Total numbers now we have ordered of T90?
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,887
8,223
India
Total numbers now we have ordered of T90?

This is what I know:
310 (2001) + 330 (2006) + 347 (2007) + 235 (2013) = 1222

But at the same time we are ordering 1400+ driver sights for the T-90s. Something may have slipped below the radar.

So beyond 1222 I don't have proper confirmation. The order for 464 adds to fleet.

There is also no proper differentiation between how many were kit assemblies and how many were legit license production. HVF have claimed that 80% of the T-90 is now produced in India with production going at 140/year.
 

Gautam

Team StratFront
Feb 16, 2019
12,067
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Btw, HVF, Avadi had apparently announced last year that they had produced 790 T-90s as of last year and this is separate from the 656 supplied by Russia. This puts the total at ~1450 T-90s, and production is still going on. But I'm not 100% sure about this.
Holy cow.......1450 T-90s ! Any sources of this ?
 

Austerlitz

Well-Known member
Jun 2, 2018
358
699
Kolkata
The 5 most important features about the upcoming T-90MS are -

1.New tank gun and modified autoloader.

It has the upgraded version(2A46M-5) of the gun currently on the T-90s (2A46M)we have with better performance and most importantly turret has modified autoloader that can use the svinets-1 long rod penetrator APFSDS round with 750 mm penetration at 2km which is far better than the mango round on the current T-90 with 500 mm penetration which is sufficient for pakistani tanks but not good enough against chinese heavy tanks.The svinets-2 which is the Depleted uranium version of the tungsten alloy svinets-1 is probably banned from sale.

2.New ERA -
The new Relikt ERA coming with these tanks have both much better coverage and 50% greater performance against APFSDS and tandem warheads than the Kontakt-5 ERA on the current T-90s.

3.Digitization and new fire control system -

Digitally its totally different from the earlier T-90s.The Kalina fire control system is the same one installed on the t-14 armata.It has true hunter killer capability and tank tracking,new thermal imager,digital bus etc etc.Plus seperate view periscopes 360 degree for commander and gunner.

4.Defensive suite -
Apart from relikt,you get other measures.Critically there is seperate bustle for keeping ammo seperate from crew compartment in the new turret- a key weakness of earlier T-series MBTs has thus been corrected.
We will also get shtora-1 APS .While shtora-1 is not a hard kill system,hard kill systems are most useful in urban environments against enemy infantry atgms at close range and are not that useful in tank to tank combat.Since these 464 tanks will be deployed on barren and mountainous china border and we will be defending, we will not encounter not many enemy ATGMs in hidden positions.In tank to tank combat the shtora-1 can break the guidance of the laser beam riding tank launched ATGMs like sniper,invar,refleks that the chinese tanks use at 4km standoff ranges and that we too use on our T-90s.
The remote controlled Machine gun station able to be controlled from within cupola is also nice.

5.Propulsion -
New 1130hp engine,other improvements and new APU for better mobility.

Overall this is an excellent tank with state of the art features that will neutralize the chinese armoured threat in LAC,particularly in ladakh combined with CBU-105 equipped jaguars,LCH and apaches.It is primarily being acquired for tank duels with chinese armour at the LAC.

On a side note -

The latest t-90 in russian service is the T-90M proryv-3.(breakthrough)
This is basically the T-90MS with 2 differences.
Instead of upgrade of t-90 gun found on T-90MS tagil it has the same gun as the one on the latest t-14 armata.The 2A821M on the proryv and the armata might be the best gun in the world atm.
And thus it can also fire 3 new kinds of ammo specially designed fro the armata .

The vacuum-1 APFSDS with 1000 mm penetration at 2km.
Special Tank launched Sprinter ATGM with 12km range instead of 5km invar found on indian and chinese tanks and current T-90s.
A special HE-frag airburst round for killing enemy ATGM crews hidden within obstacles.

Plus a hard kill APS and some strategically placed cage armour based on urban combat experience in syria.

I think we will get the T-90MS tagil rather than the proryv-3.But it would be a real big coup if we could have somehow atleast got the Proryv/armat's tank gun on our 464 tanks which would have allowed acquisition of new ammo if not now at least in future.Nonetheless the svinets-1 is a BIG leap from our current mango rounds on T-72 and T-90 .
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,887
8,223
India
The 5 most important features about the upcoming T-90MS are -

1.New tank gun and modified autoloader.
It has the upgraded version(2A46M-5) of the gun currently on the T-90s (2A46M)we have with better performance and most importantly turret has modified autoloader that can use the svinets-1 long rod penetrator APFSDS round with 750 mm penetration at 2km which is far better than the mango round on the current T-90 with 500 mm penetration which is sufficient for pakistani tanks but not good enough against chinese heavy tanks.The svinets-2 which is the Depleted uranium version of the tungsten alloy svinets-1 is probably banned from sale.

2.New ERA -
The new Relikt ERA coming with these tanks have both much better coverage and 50% greater performance against APFSDS and tandem warheads than the Kontakt-5 ERA on the current T-90s.

3.Digitization and new fire control system -
Digitally its totally different from the earlier T-90s.The Kalina fire control system is the same one installed on the t-14 armata.It has true hunter killer capability and tank tracking,new thermal imager,digital bus etc etc.Plus seperate view periscopes 360 degree for commander and gunner.

4.Defensive suite -
Apart from relikt,you get other measures.Critically there is seperate bustle for keeping ammo seperate from crew compartment in the new turret- a key weakness of earlier T-series MBTs has thus been corrected.
We will also get shtora-1 APS .While shtora-1 is not a hard kill system,hard kill systems are most useful in urban environments against enemy infantry atgms at close range and are not that useful in tank to tank combat.Since these 464 tanks will be deployed on barren and mountainous china border and we will be defending, we will not encounter not many enemy ATGMs in hidden positions.In tank to tank combat the shtora-1 can break the guidance of the laser beam riding tank launched ATGMs like sniper,invar,refleks that the chinese tanks use at 4km standoff ranges and that we too use on our T-90s.
The remote controlled Machine gun station able to be controlled from within cupola is also nice.

5.Propulsion -
New 1130hp engine,other improvements and new APU for better mobility.

Overall this is an excellent tank with state of the art features that will neutralize the chinese armoured threat in LAC,particularly in ladakh combined with CBU-105 equipped jaguars,LCH and apaches.It is primarily being acquired for tank duels with chinese armour at the LAC.

On a side note -

The latest t-90 in russian service is the T-90M proryv-3.(breakthrough)
This is basically the T-90MS with 2 differences.
Instead of upgrade of t-90 gun found on T-90MS tagil it has the same gun as the one on the latest t-14 armata.The 2A821M on the proryv and the armata might be the best gun in the world atm.
And thus it can also fire 3 new kinds of ammo specially designed fro the armata .

The vacuum-1 APFSDS with 1000 mm penetration at 2km.
Special Tank launched Sprinter ATGM with 12km range instead of 5km invar found on indian and chinese tanks and current T-90s.
A special HE-frag airburst round for killing enemy ATGM crews hidden within obstacles.

Plus a hard kill APS and some strategically placed cage armour based on urban combat experience in syria.

I think we will get the T-90MS tagil rather than the proryv-3.But it would be a real big coup if we could have somehow atleast got the Proryv/armat's tank gun on our 464 tanks which would have allowed acquisition of new ammo if not now at least in future.Nonetheless the svinets-1 is a BIG leap from our current mango rounds on T-72 and T-90 .

I don't think our T-90MS will have the Shtora. We plan to equip all our T-90s with a hard kill APS in the near future.

But yeah, it would be really good if we managed to get the 2A82 instead of the 2A46M5. If not, the M5 is still a significant upgrade over our current T-90S and T-72.

The T-90M is a real beast though. I hope we will buy a couple hundred of these tanks after the T-90MS are delivered. Also I hope all the older T-90s get upgraded to this standard in the near future.
 
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Himanshu

Senior member
Dec 3, 2017
912
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New Delhi
indopacfront.blogspot.com
Russia Develops Plastic Based 30mm Cartridges For Light Artillery



Russian small-caliber ammunition manufacturer SPA Pribor has developed a new generation of small caliber (30 mm etc.) cartridges with plastic master device (PMD) that enhancing the combat efficiency and gun barrel service life.

These cartridges are being offered by Russia to India for the 30 mm guns on its BMP-2 APCs and other combat platforms, Russian sources said.

Moscow-based SPA Pribor (Scientific Production Company Pribor, part of Rostec’s Tecmash concern) is the only Russian developer of small-caliber ammunition for automatic guns for the Air Force, Land Force and Navy, as well as shots for automatic, rifle and hand grenade launchers.

Pribor is also the developer of automatic anti-personnel complexes. It has created shells for such famous systems as ZU-23 23 mm anti-aircraft gun and ZSU-23-4 Shilka self-propelled anti-aircraft gun which are still in service with dozens of countries.

The result of years of research in the field of small-caliber ammunition development by Pribor was the creation of new generation of 30 mm cartridges with projectiles with plastic master device (PMD), maximally unified for all the military services. It provides the substantial increase of combat and operational capabilities in comparison with basic cartridges with copper lead band (CLB). PMD is thermally stable composite polymer material, which has unique combination of physico-chemical and physico-mechanical features. Cartridges with PMD in comparison with CLB ones provide:
  • Increase of survivability of barrel more than 2 times
  • Increase of fire performance up to 3 times due to the possibility of using intensive shooting modes
  • Reduce of the temperature effect of propellant charge on ballistic characteristics due to the use of low-gradient powder
  • Increase of exploitation safety of projectiles due to the use of heat resistant elements in the compound of fuses.
PMD ammunition has already successfully completed the state trials in Russia and is being offered abroad. “We have managed to reduce the influence of the leading belt on the bore to prevent the loss of the ballistic characteristics of the shot. The plastic master device, as compared with copper lead band, provides an increase in barrel survivability, fire performance, and reduces the effect of fire temperature”, - says Yury Nabokov, CEO of Pribor, quoted by Russian media.

Pribor earlier disclosed to RIA Novosti news agency that new generation PMD ammunition was to be fitted into the Russian Su-57 fifth generation fighter jet automatic gun along with other aircraft and helicopters.


1500 T-72s are being upgraded.
1000

Now consider that we have another 1,000+ T-72's that're also being equipped for night-fighting. And the bulk of these forces are bound to be aimed at Pak. If/when a real war occurs involving actual armor, Pakistan's really gonna get it.

The secret of T-72 Main Battle Tank’s improved night vision

Untitled presentation.png
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,887
8,223
India

That's merely 1 contract for 969 tanks. There were earlier contracts also.

If you want to get more accurate, the entire T-72 fleet will get upgraded for night fighting, with 70% of the fleet upgraded to the new standard that's happening for 969 tanks.
 

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
508
399
The 5 most important features about the upcoming T-90MS are -

1.New tank gun and modified autoloader.
It has the upgraded version(2A46M-5) of the gun currently on the T-90s (2A46M)we have with better performance and most importantly turret has modified autoloader that can use the svinets-1 long rod penetrator APFSDS round with 750 mm penetration at 2km which is far better than the mango round on the current T-90 with 500 mm penetration which is sufficient for pakistani tanks but not good enough against chinese heavy tanks.The svinets-2 which is the Depleted uranium version of the tungsten alloy svinets-1 is probably banned from sale.

2.New ERA -
The new Relikt ERA coming with these tanks have both much better coverage and 50% greater performance against APFSDS and tandem warheads than the Kontakt-5 ERA on the current T-90s.

3.Digitization and new fire control system -
Digitally its totally different from the earlier T-90s.The Kalina fire control system is the same one installed on the t-14 armata.It has true hunter killer capability and tank tracking,new thermal imager,digital bus etc etc.Plus seperate view periscopes 360 degree for commander and gunner.

4.Defensive suite -
Apart from relikt,you get other measures.Critically there is seperate bustle for keeping ammo seperate from crew compartment in the new turret- a key weakness of earlier T-series MBTs has thus been corrected.
We will also get shtora-1 APS .While shtora-1 is not a hard kill system,hard kill systems are most useful in urban environments against enemy infantry atgms at close range and are not that useful in tank to tank combat.Since these 464 tanks will be deployed on barren and mountainous china border and we will be defending, we will not encounter not many enemy ATGMs in hidden positions.In tank to tank combat the shtora-1 can break the guidance of the laser beam riding tank launched ATGMs like sniper,invar,refleks that the chinese tanks use at 4km standoff ranges and that we too use on our T-90s.
The remote controlled Machine gun station able to be controlled from within cupola is also nice.

5.Propulsion -
New 1130hp engine,other improvements and new APU for better mobility.

Overall this is an excellent tank with state of the art features that will neutralize the chinese armoured threat in LAC,particularly in ladakh combined with CBU-105 equipped jaguars,LCH and apaches.It is primarily being acquired for tank duels with chinese armour at the LAC.

On a side note -

The latest t-90 in russian service is the T-90M proryv-3.(breakthrough)
This is basically the T-90MS with 2 differences.
Instead of upgrade of t-90 gun found on T-90MS tagil it has the same gun as the one on the latest t-14 armata.The 2A821M on the proryv and the armata might be the best gun in the world atm.
And thus it can also fire 3 new kinds of ammo specially designed fro the armata .

The vacuum-1 APFSDS with 1000 mm penetration at 2km.
Special Tank launched Sprinter ATGM with 12km range instead of 5km invar found on indian and chinese tanks and current T-90s.
A special HE-frag airburst round for killing enemy ATGM crews hidden within obstacles.

Plus a hard kill APS and some strategically placed cage armour based on urban combat experience in syria.

I think we will get the T-90MS tagil rather than the proryv-3.But it would be a real big coup if we could have somehow atleast got the Proryv/armat's tank gun on our 464 tanks which would have allowed acquisition of new ammo if not now at least in future.Nonetheless the svinets-1 is a BIG leap from our current mango rounds on T-72 and T-90 .
This is Direct Import ie CBU - or are we going to see CKD in Avadi?
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
10,887
8,223
India
My only hope maybe we could have got new armata tank gun instead of the m5 upgraded version.

That gun's been made for the Russian Army, so they will get it first. We don't even know if it has been cleared for export. But M5 is a time-tested and proven gun, so this is a much safer option, especially if Svinets-2 is part of the package. Even the Lekalo and Svinets are significant upgrades for India.

I suppose our hopes for Western equivalent and higher capability will have to come from our own house.
 
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Austerlitz

Well-Known member
Jun 2, 2018
358
699
Kolkata
That gun's been made for the Russian Army, so they will get it first. We don't even know if it has been cleared for export. But M5 is a time-tested and proven gun, so this is a much safer option, especially if Svinets-2 is part of the package. Even the Lekalo and Svinets are significant upgrades for India.

I suppose our hopes for Western equivalent and higher capability will have to come from our own house.

Svinets-1 will come.Svinets-2 is DU round,don't think its for export.Still 750 mm with svinets-1 is much much better - 50% improvement over current mango at 500 mm at 2km.
 
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