Aditya b7777

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Nov 30, 2020
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Courtesy of @zapper on another forum:


View attachment 21026
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Conflicting reports. The thermal sight is a binocular type ? The only helmet mounted bino TI sight Tonbo sells is the Duvi-B.

View attachment 21031
But the Duvi-B cannot be used on a weapon. Also the Army is buying bino sights ? Since when ? The love their mono sights. Also which bino sight can be weapon mounted ? It is likely that the sight is a monocular.

So the most probable candidate is the Raptor. Can be weapon mounted & helmet mounted. Very lightweight. Tonbo managed to export some to Raptor sights to the US Spec Ops too:
View attachment 21032
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The other likely candidate is the Arjun sight. It is the predecessor of the Raptor. The military has thousands of these sights in service. raptor is the improved version of the Arjun.
View attachment 21034
In the article it’s given that the Thermal Binocular for target acquisition and surveillance. Duvi-B is a Biocular fused thermal weapon device. Its most likely the Geolocator UC.
The Multi mission sight which weighs 300g is the Spartan S.
 
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Samual

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Sep 20, 2021
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Army upset over 7.62 mm assault rifle quality, OFB says ready for production

Kolkata: Close on the heels of the Modi government's clearance to procure around 7.40 lakhs assault rifles of 7.62 mm calibre which will replace the 5.56 mm calibre INSAS for the Indian Army, the Army has raised serious questions on the quality of the weapon being developed by the Kolkata headquartered state defence manufacturer Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

Vowing not to compromise with the qualitative requirements (QR) for its weapons, the Army also pointed out that the assault rifle failed trials while deliberating that no one can meet its requirement in future.

The Army's concerns came after the OFB sounded its preparedness to start the assault rifles' production which is likely at Rifle Factory Ishapore in North 24 Parganas with the defence ministry assuming that it would take around three years to place the first order for procurement.

According to a Standing Committee on Defence report submitted to both the Houses of the parliament on March 13, defence production secretary Ajay Kumar told the parliamentary panel on the assault rifles, "Sir, I would like to tell that now in S.C. 7.6 mm best technology, 7.5 lakh assault rifles have been approved which will be made in the country. Whatever is the requirement of the Army, in that work of making about 7.5 lakh assault rifles will be done in the country. The OFB and Industries will build it together.”

On the status and time frame for the assault rifles' production he told the parliamentary panel, "In S.D.A.C. approval, it has been stated that the first order will be given in 2020-21."

Replying to the question of the assault rifles' order and production OFB Chairman Sunil Kumar Chourasia, who is also the Director General Ordnance Factories, told the panel, "I am ready for production. (Assault rifle is being developed in-house by this R&D in Rifle Factory, Ishapore. PMT has formed in it, in which Army is the representative of user quality, all are working together on this)."

The Army however explained why orders were yet to be placed even after the weapon was finalised. Its director general (Weapons & Equipment) Lieutenant General Sanjiv Verma told the panel, "Sir, this problem has been known for long years. The assault rifle or the carbine, which this Service is wanted, we have not been able to get. I just explain that. For the past few years, whatever trials have gone for the assault rifles and carbines, we were not satisfied with them. So, we have not been able to get the weapons...."

Lt Gen Verma elaborated, "Recently, in the Defence Acquisition Council, a very deliberate decision at the highest level has been taken on how to proceed with the eight lakh plus rifles and carbines which we wanted. In that, we have gone for certain quantity for the fast track procedure from import. But for the balance, that is, seven lakh plus, out of that, the Ordnance Factory Board is also going to participate. But, yes, Sir, like what you are pointing out, nobody is in a position to meet our requirement tomorrow. Sir, it is not up to my requirement. How can I give order?"

When the panel wanted to know about the QR and Ordnance Factories waiting for orders, Lt Gen Verma informed it that the Army has tried but the assault rifles failed in trials.

He said, "Sir, QRs have been given to them. It was tried and tested a number of times. But, unfortunately, it did not meet our QR. Sir, your point is very valid. For a rifle, I cannot have a diluted QR to be used on the frontline. So, what we are doing is that we are importing a certain quantity and for the rest, the work is in progress. Various prototypes of weapons have come to us for trials and they are being tested. It is not that we have not tested them."

Describing the QR as 'very stringent', defence secretary Sanjay Mitra later assured the panel that the OFB would acquire technology to 'make it up to the standards of Army's satisfaction.'


OFB looks at replacing ageing INSAS rifles; to get 1.86 lakh 7.62-mm automatic rifles

The Ordnance Factories Board(ODB) today said it was set to receive orders for around 1.86 lakh of its newly developed 7.62-mm automatic rifles from the Armyto replace the ageing INSAS rifles.

The Armyhas sought approximately 8 lakh 7.62x51 mm assault rifles, out of which 72,000 rifles will be immediately purchase through global tender, OFB member (Weapons, Vehicles and Equipment) Hari Mohansaid.

"Of the remaining nearly 7.3 lakh rifles, the armed forces will go for Request for Proposal (RFP) route from around the globe for 75 per cent of its requirement, while the OFB will get orders for the rest 25 per cent," he told newspersons here.

He said the OFB would also participate in the RFP tendering process.

OFB chairmanS K Chourasia said, "Ordnance factories would receive orders for approximately 1.86 lakh of the Army's 7.62 mm rifle requirement".

The nodal factory for the purpose would be Rifle Factory, Ishapore, West Bengal, he said.

"Trials for the newly developed rifle has been completed and the Armyis happy with the weapon," Mohan said.

He said further trials of the prototype developed by OFB in a larger scale will be done soon, following which production of the rifle will commence.

Chourasia said the Armyand paramilitary forces at present use the 5.56 mm INSAS rifles, which are mainly for the purpose of shooting to incapacitate.

"But now with the changing securityscenario and requirements, the Armyhas sought a rifle for 'shoot to kill' purpose to replace the INSAS," Chourasia said, adding the forces now need guns of higher calibre which are more lethal like the 7.62x51 mm assault rifles.

The INSAS rifles were introduced by OFB in 1992-93 and has undergone 23 improvements, with the latest version being the 1B1 model.

OFB member Saurav Kumarsaid the organisation had received orders of Rs 250 crore for exports of different weapons and equipments in 2017-18 and has so far supplied items worth Rs 190 crore.

He said the exports have been to Gulf and South-East Asian countries, but did not specify the countries to which the weapons were being sold owing to confidentiality reasons.

Speaking on the occasion of its 217th foundation day, Chourasia said the goal of OFB, which has achieved 87 per cent overall indigenisation, is of transformation from an importer to that of an exporter.

"There has been a paradigm shift in defence procurement in our country and we have to compete with the private sector to get orders for weaponry and other equipments," he said.

The OFB chairmansaid for the purpose of meeting the present day requirements, all the 41 ordnance factories spread across the country were being constantly upgraded with an emphasis on research and development.

Ordnance Factories Board(OFB) consisting of the Indian Ordnance Factories is an industrial organisation, functioning under the Department of Defence Production of Ministry of Defence.
 
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Chain Smoker

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Mar 2, 2020
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2 versions of carbine?
IMG_20210930_185123.jpg

IMG_20210920_171423.jpg
 
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Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
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ARDE has called in a tender for the Supply of 1 unit of a Barrel Forging Machine. Specs of the Barrel Forging Machine:

Screenshot (730).png

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The machine will be cold hammer forging barrels in the 5.56 x 45mm & 7.62 x 51 mm calibers. The internal bores of the barrels will be hard chrome plated to reduce wear & tear caused by friction.

Drawing for the 5.56 x 45 mm chrome plated barrel:
Barrel forging drawing_page-0001.jpg


Drawing for the 7.62 x 51 mm Hard chrome plated barrel:
Barrel forging drawing_page-0002.jpg


ARDE has also called for supply of 60 tubes/rods. These tubes will be forged into barrels by the machine:

Screenshot (732).png


From the drawing above the material chosen for the barrels to be forged is the JSS 9510-07 : 2012 Grade "B" steel with a T3 temper condition.

JSS stands for the Joint Services Specifications. It is a common spec for materials laid down by the Directorate of Standardisation under the Dept. of Defence Production. 2012 was probably the 1st edition of the specs. These specs are revised periodically. The latest for this steel was in 2019 (Fifth Revision). They probably have some left over material of the 2012 spec that they want to use for testing the new barrel forging machine. Grade "B" is meant for rifle barrels, Grade "A" is for larger caliber machine guns.

T3 condition means the metal/alloy is solution heat treated, cold worked and naturally aged. T3 tempered materials are usually very stable. They have high ratios of tensile-to-yield strength that gives them a greater margin of safety from plastic collapse. They also have high fracture toughness and resistance to fatigue. All of those are essential qualities for a barrel of a gun.

Now the question is which gun are these barrels intended for ? The only full sized rifle that ARDE is developing is the MCIWS. The MCIWS does have the 5.56 x 45 as one of its calibers, the other 2 caliber options are the 6.8 x 43 mm & the 7.62 x 39 mm. So where will the 7.62 x 51 mm barrel go ?
1633416937392.png

ARDE has changed the MCIWS weapons design recently to feature a full sized monolithic MIL-STD-1913 rail on top. The design is more in line with the AR-10/15 family now. It is possible that ARDE has switched the 7.62 x 39 mm caliber option with the 7.62 x 51 mm caliber. After all the 7.62 x 51 mm has has been adopted by the Army.

I hope ARDE changed the operating mechanism of the MCIWS too. Previously it was a long stroke piston like the AKs. Army loves piston driven guns. However, the recently acquired Sig 716i is a direct impingement gun. I hope the MCIWS at least switches to a short stroke piston driven set up if not a DI.
 

AbRaj

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Dec 6, 2017
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Republic of Wadiya
Guys at LMT, SS,IWI are noobs. Army wants ultra futuristic rifle with multi barral and even multi trigger for added convenience and reliability. And so that bois can shoot at random directions using both hands ( and legs too if situation demands) even when pants are down.
Army guys are into Multi-XYZ shit like what poor guys at DRDO had to imagine to satisfy fantasies of Mahaan Army guys
Have a look
9FC37F08-8E89-4714-B60D-6DA8E80EE29E.png


PS: No, its not a Photoshop job.
and This is the reason Army Bois are demanding Multi-engine Russian chopper (even though a better and cheaper domestic alternative is available ), Multi-thingy will save the day for them
 
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AbRaj

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Republic of Wadiya
View attachment 21738
Ex - Yudh Abhyas 2021, Alaska, USA
How much a simple red dot/reflex sight costs ?
These guys are using this otherwise modern firearm in worst possible way.

found this one on Amazon.com for 35 dollars ie roughly 3000 rupees.
So my opinion is if Govt is unwilling to spend this huge 2000 rupees for such a critical accessory, can’t soldiers themselves purchase it from the market like they do in the US ? Or they don’t feel that reflex sights are any good to them ?
 
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Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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Delhi
How much a simple red dot/reflex sight costs ?
These guys are using this otherwise modern firearm in worst possible way.

found this one on Amazon.com for 35 dollars ie roughly 3000 rupees.
So my opinion is if Govt is unwilling to spend this huge 2000 rupees for such a critical accessory, can’t soldiers themselves purchase it from the market like they do in the US ? Or they don’t feel that reflex sights are any good to them ?
Learning tactics from the Americans will matter more here and learning what hardware they are using.
 
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AbRaj

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Learning tactics from the Americans will matter more here and learning what hardware they are using.
The US Army standard issue is Trijicon ACOG 4X32 which is approx 1000 USD a piece, so quite expensive for us. Although cheaper alternatives from CrusHunt etc are available for as low as 12-15k. And Chinese copies are available for 6 to 8k.
Add to that some NV laser designators like AN-PEQ 2 ( alternatives are available for about 10K rupees) , foregrip and flashlight each for few hundred rupees and you have a pretty much ok gig for infantry use.
 

Aditya b7777

Active member
Nov 30, 2020
91
167
Karnataka
How much a simple red dot/reflex sight costs ?
These guys are using this otherwise modern firearm in worst possible way.

found this one on Amazon.com for 35 dollars ie roughly 3000 rupees.
So my opinion is if Govt is unwilling to spend this huge 2000 rupees for such a critical accessory, can’t soldiers themselves purchase it from the market like they do in the US ? Or they don’t feel that reflex sights are any good to them ?

The US Army standard issue is Trijicon ACOG 4X32 which is approx 1000 USD a piece, so quite expensive for us. Although cheaper alternatives from CrusHunt etc are available for as low as 12-15k. And Chinese copies are available for 6 to 8k.
Add to that some NV laser designators like AN-PEQ 2 ( alternatives are available for about 10K rupees) , foregrip and flashlight each for few hundred rupees and you have a pretty much ok gig for infantry use.
Red dot/Reflex sights like the one you’ve linked are not suitable for military guise with rifles and are intended for the civilian market.
Sights like Trijicon ACOG are expensive since they use tritium to power the sight rather than a battery and come with a lifetime warranty and built to handle stresses of firing rifle calibers, you also have to remember 7.62x51mm rifles are notorious for being optic killers, so they are expensive since they need to meet mil grade standards. Cheaper option for us will be to use fixed power magnified sights that use batteries for our frontline infantrymen like the SIG SAUER Bravo 5($440) or the Tonbo Apollo VX(cost unknown but will be cheaper than ACOG). Variable power optics can be issued to Designated marksmen who right now use the Dragunov and INSAS LMG with OFB Telescopic 4x scope(some units do this), as we cannot afford to give everyone one. Non frontline infantry and support arms can do with reflex/red dot sights if required or not at all necessary in some cases.
Coming to lasers, AN/PEQ 2 is out of the question as it has been out of production for many years and is out of date, modern effective and reliable aiming lasers like AN-PEQ 15/16 or D-BAL D2 cost about $1000, Russian, Chinese and Turkish alternatives are unproven, unreliable or not upto par, also there is no point in giving lasers to an army who’s regular infantry is largely nightblind. Realistically only SF need to be provided this in large numbers as they do have few AN PEQ 15s and relatively larger numbers of PEQ 2 that came as a package with MR SOPMOD Block 1, maybe a case can be made to provide Ghataks of regular infantry this in small numbers or make do with sights that have built in lasers like MEPRO MOR or BEL Trinetra and invest in a NVD that has illuminated built in.
Flashlights that are military grade and powerful enough cost more than ₹5-8k not in the few 100s range.
 
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AbRaj

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Dec 6, 2017
2,490
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Republic of Wadiya
Red dot/Reflex sights like the one you’ve linked are not suitable for military guise with rifles and are intended for the civilian market.
Sights like Trijicon ACOG are expensive since they use tritium to power the sight rather than a battery and come with a lifetime warranty and built to handle stresses of firing rifle calibers, you also have to remember 7.62x51mm rifles are notorious for being optic killers, so they are expensive since they need to meet mil grade standards. Cheaper option for us will be to use fixed power magnified sights that use batteries for our frontline infantrymen like the SIG SAUER Bravo 5($440) or the Tonbo Apollo VX(cost unknown but will be cheaper than ACOG). Variable power optics can be issued to Designated marksmen who right now use the Dragunov and INSAS LMG with OFB Telescopic 4x scope(some units do this), as we cannot afford to give everyone one. Non frontline infantry and support arms can do with reflex/red dot sights if required or not at all necessary in some cases.
Coming to lasers, AN/PEQ 2 is out of the question as it has been out of production for many years and is out of date, modern effective and reliable aiming lasers like AN-PEQ 15/16 or D-BAL D2 cost about $1000, Russian, Chinese and Turkish alternatives are unproven, unreliable or not upto par, also there is no point in giving lasers to an army who’s regular infantry is largely nightblind. Realistically only SF need to be provided this in large numbers as they do have few AN PEQ 15s and relatively larger numbers of PEQ 2 that came as a package with MR SOPMOD Block 1, maybe a case can be made to provide Ghataks of regular infantry this in small numbers or make do with sights that have built in lasers like MEPRO MOR or BEL Trinetra and invest in a NVD that has illuminated built in.
Flashlights that are military grade and powerful enough cost more than ₹5-8k not in the few 100s range.
My point was , when you(army) already have purchased a rifle specially designed to use accessories, why not use the essential accessories atleast. Otherwise just buy whatever crap ak47 copy OFB produces and spray bullets towards any direction you like. Why bear additional weight and cost of m-lok, p-rails etc when you are not going to use it anyway. AKs are much more reliable than DI716 anyway and are lighter too.
PS: Barebone Sig 716 looks atrocious. Also seeing soldiers fumbling with 3point slings looks bad.
 
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Aditya b7777

Active member
Nov 30, 2020
91
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Karnataka
My point was , when you(army) already have purchased a rifle specially designed to use accessories, why not use the essential accessories atleast. Otherwise just buy whatever crap ak47 copy OFB produces and spray bullets towards any direction you like. Why bear additional weight and cost of m-lok, p-rails etc when you are not going to use it anyway. AKs are much more reliable than DI716 anyway and are lighter too.
PS: Barebone Sig 716 looks atrocious. Also seeing soldiers fumbling with 3point slings looks bad.
The whole point of buying 7.62X51MM rifles is to not use them in CI/CT ops where spray and pray is needed, it was purchased as a direct reaction to the Pakistanis having a slight advantage on the LOC with their 7.62x51 G3s in terms of lethality and range. You have to remember the SIG is lighter than the INSAS and has future upgradability y when funds are available to mount Night Vision/Thermal/Flashlights/Optics vs an AK where you have little upgradability, less space to mount such accessories and you’ll have to end up splurgiing on FAB Defense Mod kits and bring the price to higher levels than the SIG. 7.62x39mm caliber is already beginning to get outdated in the global scheme of things.
7.62X51 also is useful in the mountains of LAC is used properly and definitely better than AKs 7.62x39mm there.
You have absolutely no proof that the DI Sig 716 is less reliable than an AK, I suggest you do not jump to such rash conclusions without any sort of proof. Modern American DI rifles have nearly caught upto the reliability levels of piston driven AR rifles and AKs.
 

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
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Republic of Wadiya
The whole point of buying 7.62X51MM rifles is to not use them in CI/CT ops where spray and pray is needed, it was purchased as a direct reaction to the Pakistanis having a slight advantage on the LOC with their 7.62x51 G3s in terms of lethality and range. You have to remember the SIG is lighter than the INSAS and has future upgradability y when funds are available to mount Night Vision/Thermal/Flashlights/Optics vs an AK where you have little upgradability, less space to mount such accessories and you’ll have to end up splurgiing on FAB Defense Mod kits and bring the price to higher levels than the SIG. 7.62x39mm caliber is already beginning to get outdated in the global scheme of things.
7.62X51 also is useful in the mountains of LAC is used properly and definitely better than AKs 7.62x39mm there.
You have absolutely no proof that the DI Sig 716 is less reliable than an AK, I suggest you do not jump to such rash conclusions without any sort of proof. Modern American DI rifles have nearly caught upto the reliability levels of piston driven AR rifles and AKs.
I thought it’s proven that long strokes of AKs and short stroke ARs are inherently more reliable and maintenance friendly than DI type.
Anyway 716 was definitely a better choice and hope the infantry get its much needed upgrade of personals equipments.