Lolwa

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They will get good at it. Ar 10 is an alien system to us since most of IA has been using long stroke piston systems for quite a while. They will slowly get some upgrades most likely long grips and angled might be introduced so there will be overall reduction in recoil too along with sights and maybe later we might also introduce peq 14 for regulate forces. The sig is quite a capable gun..
 
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Killbot

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good deal...

few hundred bucks here or there but still not overpriced.
Right.... So we're paying $1000 each for 650k downgraded AK-203, and paying $85 royalty for the most copied design in the world, except for the Mauser 98 perhaps. "Not overpriced" 🤣🤣

An arsenal AR-M1F51 costs around $400. What does that not have that the AK-203 (not) has?

Edit:
few hundred bucks here or there
I'm sorry, were you being sarcastic?
 
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Milspec

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Right.... So we're paying $1000 each for 650k downgraded AK-203, and paying $85 royalty for the most copied design in the world, except for the Mauser 98 perhaps. "Not overpriced" 🤣🤣

An arsenal AR-M1F51 costs around $400. What does that not have that the AK-203 (not) has?

Edit:
I'm sorry, were you being sarcastic?
No worries.

In today's market, you will pay about 800-1000 for any AKM's semiauto in the US market. If you can buy me a brand new AKM in 7.62x39 for 400, get in touch with me I will buy as many as you can get me and send you the money right away.

Given markets are inflated due to Biden, a decent std AKM's real value should be around $600-700 and Bulk pricing around 550-650. Paying $1000 for the same is not a bad deal, that's the price penalty you pay for not having the right infrastructure, the right skill sets, and horrible priorities in the defense sector.

Finally , the price of $1000 is not Russian pricing, it's Indian pricing, i.e The price OFB will sell it to IA for, so most likely it's building the gun for far less, and then adding its Profit margins and GST to arrive at that price. If you want to buy from Bulgaria, then say bye-bye to Atmanirbhar stuff and the Amethi seat probably. That's the cost of decisions we make.
 
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Killbot

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No worries.

In today's market, you will pay about 800-1000 for any AKM's semiauto in the US market. If you can buy me a brand new AKM in 7.62x39 for 400, get in touch with me I will buy as many as you can get me and send you the money right away.

Given markets are inflated due to Biden, a decent std AKM's real value should be around $600-700 and Bulk pricing around 550-650. Paying $1000 for the same is not a bad deal, that's the price penalty you pay for not having the right infrastructure, the right skill sets, and horrible priorities in the defense sector.
They're imported from various countries in knocked down kits and reassembled in the US. And then there is customs and shit.

And products from the likes of Rifle Dynamics are handcrafted (for lack of a better word). They don't have facilities the size of Tula arsenal to assemble AKs. That is why they are expensive.

But, an AK imported directly from Arsenal for the CRPF costs ₹25000. $350. Get what I'm getting at? An AK coming from an OFB factory should not cost $1000. Anything more than half that is overpriced. Heck, a good, piston driven AR-15s cost around $1000. And their price would decrease if manufactured in India.

Taxpayers are being exploited for the benefit of OFB and Russians/Russian Dalals
 

Milspec

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They're imported from various countries in knocked down kits and reassembled in the US. And then there is customs and shit.

And products from the likes of Rifle Dynamics are handcrafted (for lack of a better word). They don't have facilities the size of Tula arsenal to assemble AKs. That is why they are expensive.

But, an AK imported directly from Arsenal for the CRPF costs ₹25000. $350. Get what I'm getting at? An AK coming from an OFB factory should not cost $1000. Anything more than half that is overpriced. Heck, a good, piston driven AR-15s cost around $1000. And their price would decrease if manufactured in India.

Taxpayers are being exploited for the benefit of OFB and Russians/Russian Dalals
Very interesting assertions, but I am not aware of the price that CRPF acquired thier AKM's for.

Why would you think stuff made in India would be cheaper?

A larger Workshop which has paid off all of it's asset can have much lower overheads, especially private arsenals in eastern Europe which now are part of Europe have excellent manufacturing practices, utilizes automation as well as opex, when you compare that to Indian PSU structure, they are ridiculously overstaffed diminishing any labor advantage it could have, and then have horrible productivity. Such pricing is to be expected. Same reasons Indian MKI's are more expensive than buying directly from Russia.... there is nothing to be surprised about here.
 

Killbot

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larger Workshop which has paid off all of it's asset can have much lower overheads, especially private arsenals in eastern Europe which now are part of Europe have excellent manufacturing practices, utilizes automation as well as opex, when you compare that to Indian PSU structure, they are ridiculously overstaffed diminishing any labor advantage it could have, and then have horrible productivity. Such pricing is to be expected. Same reasons Indian MKI's are more expensive than buying directly from Russia.... there is nothing to be surprised about here.
First off, I'm not referring to PSUs. If we invest in the private sector now, we'll get goods that are much cheaper than their European counterparts in another 6-7 years. That is just about how long the Induction of the AKs will span if it starts now.

And, I'm not saying that our PSUs can match the standards of European or Russian factories. I'm just saying that the gun that we are getting in the hundreds of thousands getting costs twice or thrice as much as it would for much, much smaller orders in the abovementioned countries. Surely, the price wouldn't be that high, regardless of PSU's manufacturing practices. And Royalty for an AK is also plain foolish. This deal is political to boot. Why an AK in the first place??
 

Milspec

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First off, I'm not referring to PSUs. If we invest in the private sector now, we'll get goods that are much cheaper than their European counterparts in another 6-7 years. That is just about how long the Induction of the AKs will span if it starts now.
Who is we?


And, I'm not saying that our PSUs can match the standards of European or Russian factories.
We (Indian PSU's) can't. I have not seen a single shred of evidence or even developments in the directions. Other than Vivek's company, there is nothing promising in the Indian private sector. (there is something very shady about the guys building IWI stuff in India but that's just my fear)

I'm just saying that the gun that we are getting in the hundreds of thousands getting costs twice or thrice as much as it would for much, much smaller orders in the abovementioned countries. Surely, the price wouldn't be that high, regardless of PSU's manufacturing practices. And Royalty for an AK is also plain foolish. This deal is political to boot.
preaching to the choir... as I said, India pays extra penalty for it's tech lazyness.

Why an AK in the first place??
Why not, I like AK's. For a lazy no-hassle choice, AK's are great. It's cheap (if done right) accurate for it's purpose, light, reliable, and fun. It's an exceptional gun to live with. 8 out of 10 operators will tell you if they had just one gun to pick for end of the world, it would be AK @Falcon included.

lightly put ; It's the Govinda of Gun world, for a time period just like it, he ruled the box office. and on a slow day, Dulhe raja is still a great watch.


Afterthought, I have 4AR's and one Ak. If I had to pick just one that can do everything despite my love for everything AR, it will always be an AKM, everytime. That's the only rifle that I have actively kept reserve barrels and an entire parts kit to keep alive for the next two decades.
 
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Killbot

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Who is we?
GoI, IA, MoD, etc.
Why not, I like AK's. For a lazy no-hassle choice, AK's are great. It's cheap (if done right) accurate for it's purpose, light, reliable, and fun. It's an exceptional gun to live with. 8 out of 10 operators will tell you if they had just one gun to pick for end of the world, it would be AK @Falcon included

8 out of 10 operators will tell you if they had just one gun to pick for end of the world, it would be AK @Falcon included.
Right, but they don't have just one gun to pick, and it isn't the end of the world. IA is a professional army and can resupply ammo, repair guns, clean guns regularly, and so on. With that in mind, there are plenty of better choices. JV could have been made with an AR-15 manufacturer.

And why 7.62mm? A heavier 5.56mm load (like Mk.262 77gr maybe, or one of those 90gr hunting .223 rounds with faster burning propellants... Any number of combos are possible..) would suffice in my opinion. And solve our existing logistics problems.
 
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Milspec

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GoI, IA, MoD, etc.
It cannot, it cannot give money to private sector. Firearms market is too small for venture capital or for big houses to invest, margins are too low. There is more money to made in India selling dant manjan - ask baba ramdev. (or cheap chinese junk online)



Right, but they don't have just one gun to pick, and it isn't the end of the world. IA is a professional army and can resupply ammo, repair guns, clean guns regularly, and so on. With that in mind, there are plenty of better choices. JV could have been made with an AR-15 manufacturer.
That's MoD's and IA's foresight. We routinely make such blunders. That still doesn't take away from the fact that AKM's even today remain a very prolific platform.

And why 7.62mm? A heavier 5.56mm load (like Mk.262 77gr maybe, or one of those 90gr hunting .223 rounds with faster burning propellants... Any number of combos are possible..) would suffice in my opinion. And solve our existing logistics problems.
I would respectfully disagree. a heavier load 5.56 is not comparable to a 7.62x39's terminal ballistics. No matter how much you add weight to a small bullet it is not going to change the surface contact that transmits the kinetic energy. I dont want to go the rabbit hole of grendel and likewise, if our planners were that smart we wouldn't be having this conversation.

These the way I see it. AKM's are a great platform. They can turn out to be great guns to live with for Army units in Coin, Patrols, urban warfare, and can complement sig AR10 and Tavor-like elements in the squad. They can also be great products to be offered to capf/crpf/law enforcement etc.
I think GoI chose the wrong AK, it should have been the AK109 which I addressed here:

Right now, the way I see it is something is better than nothing. AK 203 by any stretch is better than worn out Insas and old AKM which have run 10000 rnds through it.
 
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Killbot

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I would respectfully disagree. a heavier load 5.56 is not comparable to a 7.62x39's terminal ballistics. No matter how much you add weight to a small bullet it is not going to change the surface contact that transmits the kinetic energy. I dont want to go the rabbit hole of grendel and likewise, if our planners were that smart we wouldn't be having this conversation
But is the terminal ballistics of the 7.62mm needed? When have .308 is already being used by IA, wouldn't it be best to complement it with the 5.56mm. The latter being lighter and enabling more rounds to be carried. A heavier load would be sufficient to take down a man out to 500m easily from a 16" barrel. And we would also have fewer calibers. If the CQC carbine and rifle have a common lower, that is even better.
It cannot, it cannot give money to private sector. Firearms market is too small for venture capital or for big houses to invest, margins are too low. There is more money to made in India selling dant manjan - ask baba ramdev. (or cheap chinese junk online
True that. Wish we had a civilian small arms market here. But I also understand the administration's apprehension. Imagine if a 'misguided teen/teens' had access to guns.
 

Milspec

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But is the terminal ballistics of the 7.62mm needed?
Yes- but thats my opinion.

When have .308 is already being used by IA, wouldn't it be best to complement it with the 5.56mm.
It's not. Evident from 7.62x39 vz's and AKM used for almost all Patrols, all RR units predominantly use AKM's.


A heavier load would be sufficient to take down a man out to 500m easily from a 16" barrel. And we would also have fewer calibers.
No. A heavier load 77gr still doesn't compare with a 7.62x39 at 50-250yards. And with iron sights, no one is hitting anything consistently at 500m during intense combat with 5.56. 7.62x39 is a 0-250m system with open sight, you down everything you hit with it. And thats why terminal ballistics matter. It's the biggest usp of the 7.62x39. And then comes its reliability, ease of use, light weight. You can field strip it your eyes closed, lube it with your shoe lace. Mud, sand, grime will keep it unfazed.

If the CQC carbine and rifle have a common lower, that is even better.
Both the Carbine and the Rifle would have to be in 5.56x45. And frankly speaking I don't think the guys making the decisions of choosing rifles don't have to fight, there is a huge disconnect there.


True that. Wish we had a civilian small arms market here. But I also understand the administration's apprehension. Imagine if a 'misguided teen/teens' had access to guns.

We have a civilian arms market, we have a market where you can own desert eagle if you wanted to. The difference is we have a VIP Civilian arms market, if you are MP's bhanja bhateeja, you can even get a PB license.
 
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Milspec

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Prolific is not proportional to good.
Prolific is prolific. A well built AK from ishvesk is far better than crappy AR (Read MCIWS or what I suspect of emarati m4 which someone is actively trying to unload on India)
 
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Lolwa

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Prolific is prolific. A well built AK from ishvesk is far better than crappy AR (Read MCIWS or what I suspect of emarati m4 which someone is actively trying to unload on India)
Let's not be blind the Emirati M4 has been made by the same guys who made h&k 416. Its just arab money but with European engineering. And quality control seems to decent. UAE does have a surprisingly competent defence industry for its size..

Although why we did not take the license of the entire ak200 series since it could solve all our problems when it comes to small arms is beyond me..
 

Killbot

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Let's not be blind the Emirati M4 has been made by the same guys who made h&k 416. Its just arab money but with European engineering. And quality control seems to decent. UAE does have a surprisingly competent defence industry for its size..

Although why we did not take the license of the entire ak200 series since it could solve all our problems when it comes to small arms is beyond me..
made designed. It is made by Emiratis. @Milspec may or may not be wrong, but I hope these are trialed extensively. Last I checked, trials were IA's speciality.
 

Lolwa

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made designed. It is made by Emiratis. @Milspec may or may not be wrong, but I hope these are trialed extensively. Last I checked, trials were IA's speciality.
Nah even the engineers at caracal are mostly euro expats. From what I've seen. Its just emirati management and marketing. Its a euro product. A lot of UAE defence products are like that. They import a design,import the engineers. The emiratis fund them for designing or modifying the product according to their requirements. And viola they have their product. Its a pretty neat strategy something similar is being done by Kalyani and most defence companies in India except maybe L&T and TASL..
 
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randomradio

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I dont want to go the rabbit hole of grendel and likewise, if our planners were that smart we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What's your opinion on this subject when talking about altitudes above 3000m?

I think GoI chose the wrong AK, it should have been the AK109 which I addressed here:

From what I know, the IA evaluators tried and tested every rifle in K's stable very, very extensively before zeroing in on the AK-203.

AFAIK, the AK-109 has not yet been cleared for use as a service rifle. I don't think the IA will want to be a guinea pig for an untested and obviously expensive rifle.
 
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randomradio

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Although why we did not take the license of the entire ak200 series since it could solve all our problems when it comes to small arms is beyond me..

The last reported information was that we are aiming for 100% ToT and full production license. The Russians only get royalty.
 
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