Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

Milspec

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Best part they are owned by the same caracal company we were buying the car 816 from. H&k guns are overrated trash...
Surprised to hear that.
The only H&K gun I ever got an opportunity to shoot is the MP5 full auto at vegas. I was very impressed by the smg. I have also heard great things about USP 45 from a friend who owns it, I haven't shot it though.
Why do you think H&K guns are overrated trash?
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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Surprised to hear that.
The only H&K gun I ever got an opportunity to shoot is the MP5 full auto at vegas. I was very impressed by the smg. I have also heard great things about USP 45 from a friend who owns it, I haven't shot it though.
Why do you think H&K guns are overrated trash?
Just because h&k thinks they are hot shit. It's more like a personal hatred for h&k and so I have my biases. The h&k of the 90's and 2000's was a different beast. The h&k post 2010 has become this sjw company which has made them act like there products are too good for consumers and if they can't win they bribe like Beretta. The g36 is an overrated gun which was only good for German environment. The mp7 was a good design with poorly designed h&k designed caliber. Same for the h&k 416 good gun but was overengineered and overweight. You could get much better ar 18 type rifles in 2020. They are anti-consumer too for civilian gun buyers. And they have boycotted selling their products to India due to human rights violations and other bs reasoning. While they have been happily selling arms to states like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. So I don't like h&k. Although hk 433 is a pretty gun and seems like a well made design unlike xm8...
 

Milspec

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Just because h&k thinks they are hot shit. It's more like a personal hatred for h&k and so I have my biases. The h&k of the 90's and 2000's was a different beast. The h&k post 2010 has become this sjw company which has made them act like there products are too good for consumers and if they can't win they bribe like Beretta. The g36 is an overrated gun which was only good for German environment. The mp7 was a good design with poorly designed h&k designed caliber. Same for the h&k 416 good gun but was overengineered and overweight. You could get much better ar 18 type rifles in 2020. They are anti-consumer too for civilian gun buyers. And they have boycotted selling their products to India due to human rights violations and other bs reasoning. While they have been happily selling arms to states like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. So I don't like h&k. Although hk 433 is a pretty gun and seems like a well made design unlike xm8...
H&K is overpriced. I don't have any love for H&K either, I am quite ambivalent, but if someone giftsme a MP5K, I wouldn't refuse it ;) .
IMO, A country like India should have never had to buy firearms (small and heavy) from any outside party at all. We should have focussed on this from long ago. There has been some developments with OFB restructuring, lets see if it works. With cheap labor, ample specialty metallurgy, cheap machining, forging, and molding cost, In reality, no one other than china should be able to touch the competitiveness of Indian firearms market if it can claim it's rightful place in the world.
 

Killbot

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Don't know there is news that they have cancelled the deal. But now news has come that the deal will be signed by year end.
Thales/Bharat forge offered to produce f90 carbines in India for the same price as car 816. So maybe they might win the next tender for 200,000 carbine order. So a mix of two carbines. Which I have not much problem with. Both of them are good guns.
This will be the absolute worst fubar our army can commit. If both the Car 816 and Thales F 90 are inducted then soldiers have to be trained on 4 diff weapon systems. Not to mention 3 different calibers of ammo does not translate to excellent logistics. I hope that sense prevails and this BS carbine deal is scrapped... Not that I think he army brass are capable of using their brains when it comes to GSQRs.
 
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Milspec

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This will be the absolute worst fubar our army can commit. If both the Car 816 and Thales F 90 are inducted then soldiers have to be trained on 4 diff weapon systems. Not to mention 3 different calibers of ammo does not translate to excellent logistics. I hope that sense prevails and this BS carbine deal is scrapped... Not that I think he army brass are capable of using their brains when it comes to GSQRs.
553 million USD for 93895 units, puts each gun at $5889 a pop, am I missing something or are these gold plated, saddam style?
 

zapper

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Oct 10, 2019
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This will be the absolute worst fubar our army can commit. If both the Car 816 and Thales F 90 are inducted then soldiers have to be trained on 4 diff weapon systems. Not to mention 3 different calibers of ammo does not translate to excellent logistics. I hope that sense prevails and this BS carbine deal is scrapped... Not that I think he army brass are capable of using their brains when it comes to GSQRs.
These articles which pop up every now and then are paid articles where the companies want credible Indian news outlets to propagate their narrative. It's kinda hilarious that the news on "Carbine deal being cancelled" came out two days ago and "Caracal deal being signed by year end" came out yesterday

Secondly, F90 is the ugliest looking gun I've come across. I just don't want our soldiers anywhere near that crap apart from the difference in training by inducting 4 different styles
 

zapper

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553 million USD for 93895 units, puts each gun at $5889 a pop, am I missing something or are these gold plated, saddam style?
It may include the ammo & spares contract as well which is still expensive though. I'm sure half of it comes back to IA's top-brass and MoD babus in the form of kickbacks which will end up in some offshore accounts
Oh *censored* ur right. I think it’s for the magazines and ammo...?? Maybe optics...
Definitely not optics. We've been procuring optics from Tonbo in recent times and it doesn't make sense to procure it from a foreign firm. Also, the $550mn is specifically for Caracal and they don't have any optics product line afaik
 
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Milspec

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Oh *censored* ur right. I think it’s for the magazines and ammo...?? Maybe optics...
Just for comparison
A top of line retail, Tavor XM95 about 2k, Stanag Mags 10 of them > 10 bucks each, 1000 rounds 68gr 556 nato, about $500. and an eotech exps2 680 bucks
Entire retail bundle $3280, atleast less 30% for volume pricing? so about $2300.
You could buy twice the guns, optics, rounds, mags all of it.

And 556 for cqb instead of 7.62x39? wow.
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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This will be the absolute worst fubar our army can commit. If both the Car 816 and Thales F 90 are inducted then soldiers have to be trained on 4 diff weapon systems. Not to mention 3 different calibers of ammo does not translate to excellent logistics. I hope that sense prevails and this BS carbine deal is scrapped... Not that I think he army brass are capable of using their brains when it comes to GSQRs.
We are already using 5 different calibers for infantry units In general operations. It's not as if IA is incapable of handling insane logistics. And IA has been using all 5 calibers for a decent 20 years. Though I would prefer a single 5.56 carbine but IA uses both tavors and m4a1 and I feel that f90 and car 816 should be the natural successors. The ak 203 is for CI and will be used by the RR and Assam rifles I think. CRPF,CISF will also get it. Main infantry units won't be using the ak203. So we will be fine.
What would have been better was moving to 7.62x39 as the carbine caliber and 7.62x51 as the main standar issue caliber which the Pakistanis do.
 
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Lolwa

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Secondly, F90 is the ugliest looking gun I've come across. I just don't want our soldiers anywhere near that crap apart from the difference in training by inducting 4 different styles
Don't know I like it. It's much better looking than the aug or tavor. Bullpups in general are ugly guns. F90 is like the least ugly out of all of them. Had the IA used their brains they could have just get an AR 15 carbine. Daniel defense mk18 is the best cqb carbine and it's basically an ar 15.
Tavor looks way goofier than the f90 let's be honest...
 

zapper

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Don't know I like it. It's much better looking than the aug or tavor. Bullpups in general are ugly guns. F90 is like the least ugly out of all of them. Had the IA used their brains they could have just get an AR 15 carbine. Daniel defense mk18 is the best cqb carbine and it's basically an ar 15.
Tavor looks way goofier than the f90 let's be honest...
Well I guess it's a personal choice...I like the Tavor over F90 and Aug when it comes to bulpups

1600317204133.png


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1600317264193.png
 

Killbot

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We are already using 5 different calibers for infantry units In general operations. It's not as if IA is incapable of handling insane logistics. And IA has been using all 5 calibers for a decent 20 years. Though I would prefer a single 5.56 carbine but IA uses both tavors and m4a1 and I feel that f90 and car 816 should be the natural successors. The ak 203 is for CI and will be used by the RR and Assam rifles I think. CRPF,CISF will also get it. Main infantry units won't be using the ak203. So we will be fine.
What would have been better was moving to 7.62x39 as the carbine caliber and 7.62x51 as the main standar issue caliber which the Pakistanis do.
Dude Infantry will be rotated regularly. What decides who gets the Sigs and who gets 203s.. And the Tavors and M4s are used by special forces who are offered a choice about which weapon they would like to use. So they train on either one weapon. And they have a lot of range time. Not so with infantry.. As to 7.62*39 carbine, I agree with you. I’d check out the SSS Defense P72 carbine. 10 inch barrel.
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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Dude Infantry will be rotated regularly. What decides who gets the Sigs and who gets 203s.. And the Tavors and M4s are used by special forces who are offered a choice about which weapon they would like to use. So they train on either one weapon. And they have a lot of range time. Not so with infantry.. As to 7.62*39 carbine, I agree with you. I’d check out the SSS Defense P72 carbine. 10 inch barrel.
Sig's are for mainline infantry they are just not meant for CI. Ak203 would be distributed for CI operations primarily and armoured,mech and other branches. I have huge doubts that ak 203 will be used by our mainline forces. It's basically useless in most of the border mountainous regions because of the average range of the caliber.
Yeah it skipped from my mind about the tavors and m4 but I have a feeling that ghatak platoons might end up getting a good share of the carbines if the deal happens.
SSS missed the train they should have focused on a 5.56 carbine but instead gave a 7.62x39 gun better for them to stick to paramilitary tenders for now. The sniper rifles is where they will get some orders carbine is highly unlikely...
Well I guess it's a personal choice...I like the Tavor over F90 and Aug when it comes to bulpups

View attachment 17758

View attachment 17759

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F 90 is much more clean looking though. The x95 flat tops are pretty guns to but the the problem with tavors is that they are useless beyond 300m. The aug and f90 which is its successors are much more accurate rifles...
 

Killbot

Member
Jun 3, 2019
155
32
Bangalore
Sig's are for mainline infantry they are just not meant for CI. Ak203 would be distributed for CI operations primarily and armoured,mech and other branches. I have huge doubts that ak 203 will be used by our mainline forces. It's basically useless in most of the border mountainous regions because of the average range of the caliber.
Yeah it skipped from my mind about the tavors and m4 but I have a feeling that ghatak platoons might end up getting a good share of the carbines if the deal happens.
SSS missed the train they should have focused on a 5.56 carbine but instead gave a 7.62x39 gun better for them to stick to paramilitary tenders for now. The sniper rifles is where they will get some orders carbine is highly unlikely...

F 90 is much more clean looking though. The x95 flat tops are pretty guns to but the the problem with tavors is that they are useless beyond 300m. The aug and f90 which is its successors are much more accurate rifles...
SSS does offer their carbine in 5.56mm. But that means too many diff calibers. IMO IA should scrap the AK deal altogether. No benefits except kickbacks for Babus... I think the carbine deal and the anti aircraft gun deal will be scrapped and new tender issued to Indian companies under Make In India.

Also do you have info on the specs of the AK our troops will field? Is it gonna be a proper 200 series gun or just a 103 with rails and a new flash hider?
 

Lolwa

Well-Known member
Feb 6, 2020
368
279
Delhi
SSS does offer their carbine in 5.56mm. But that means too many diff calibers. IMO IA should scrap the AK deal altogether. No benefits except kickbacks for Babus... I think the carbine deal and the anti aircraft gun deal will be scrapped and new tender issued to Indian companies under Make In India.

Also do you have info on the specs of the AK our troops will field? Is it gonna be a proper 200 series gun or just a 103 with rails and a new flash hider?
I have yet to see a the 5.56 version. The company keeps claiming they have a it but there is no photo if the carbine. Even their site only has the sniper rifles not the carbines.
Ak deal is fine we need to modernise our small arms and we have been using 80's era aks for way too long. The ak 203 version India will use the newer buttstock. 203 is basically a modernised ak 103. We should have bought the ak 15, but I guess the Russians persuaded to buy us the ak203 because the Babu's were actually going to buy vanilla ak 103 so you can see how lost they are on how far have Russian small arms have gone. But I think we will be able to use the lighter buttstocks too.
I just hope we can also manufacture the rest of the izhmash line of ak 9, orsis 5000, ak308. Indo-russian rifles deal is good. This should have been done in the Indira era but it took a bjp government to do this...
 

Killbot

Member
Jun 3, 2019
155
32
Bangalore
I have yet to see a the 5.56 version. The company keeps claiming they have a it but there is no photo if the carbine. Even their site only has the sniper rifles not the carbines.
Ak deal is fine we need to modernise our small arms and we have been using 80's era aks for way too long. The ak 203 version India will use the newer buttstock. 203 is basically a modernised ak 103. We should have bought the ak 15, but I guess the Russians persuaded to buy us the ak203 because the Babu's were actually going to buy vanilla ak 103 so you can see how lost they are on how far have Russian small arms have gone. But I think we will be able to use the lighter buttstocks too.
I just hope we can also manufacture the rest of the izhmash line of ak 9, orsis 5000, ak308. Indo-russian rifles deal is good. This should have been done in the Indira era but it took a bjp government to do this...
What about rails and safety selector?

I don’t think we need to manufacture AK 308 and rest of Izhmash line except for export (highly unlikely). Well the 203 is better than anything the troops have had except Sigs.

What we really need are more Ballistic vests and helmets.. Eapecially SFs. I wonder when they will procure modern plate carries... Also, do you have any info on the Scar FTP?
 

Lolwa

Well-Known member
Feb 6, 2020
368
279
Delhi
What about rails and safety selector?

I don’t think we need to manufacture AK 308 and rest of Izhmash line except for export (highly unlikely). Well the 203 is better than anything the troops have had except Sigs.

What we really need are more Ballistic vests and helmets.. Eapecially SFs. I wonder when they will procure modern plate carries... Also, do you have any info on the Scar FTP?
The rails are the same as the export version the only difference the upper rails in the forward position are missing in the Indian version.

A very good article. Also do read the comments about what the goras think about Indian arms industry...


On the topic of whether we should produce other Russian arms. There are a whole lot of Russian arms that we can produce from 9mm upto 12.7mm (even nato caliber) of small arms which can be put in great use by the military and paramilitary. I would say that the small arms requirement in India is the largest in the world even higher than the Chinese. Simply because of the amount of security threats we have. A variety of small arms should be produced in India. Also civilian market has enormous potential unfortunately the government doesn't trust the citizens as much and rightly so though we still need to loosen our gun laws. Had the Kashmiri pandits been armed they wouldn't have faced the genocide.
I would love that once the Indo-Russian JV starts producing the ak203 they also start producing other small arms like the gsh18,ak9,a762,ash12 there is just a huge market that can only be filled by Russian arms. The Americans are nowhere close to the variety of small arms produced by Russia.
What's the scar ftp??
 
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Killbot

Member
Jun 3, 2019
155
32
Bangalore
The rails are the same as the export version the only difference the upper rails in the forward position are missing in the Indian version.

A very good article. Also do read the comments about what the goras think about Indian arms industry...


On the topic of whether we should produce other Russian arms. There are a whole lot of Russian arms that we can produce from 9mm upto 12.7mm (even nato caliber) of small arms which can be put in great use by the military and paramilitary. I would say that the small arms requirement in India is the largest in the world even higher than the Chinese. Simply because of the amount of security threats we have. A variety of small arms should be produced in India. Also civilian market has enormous potential unfortunately the government doesn't trust the citizens as much and rightly so though we still need to loosen our gun laws. Had the Kashmiri pandits been armed they wouldn't have faced the genocide.
I would love that once the Indo-Russian JV starts producing the ak203 they also start producing other small arms like the gsh18,ak9,a762,ash12 there is just a huge market that can only be filled by Russian arms. The Americans are nowhere close to the variety of small arms produced by Russia.
What's the scar ftp??
Completely agree on the gun laws part.
So the infantry guys won’t even get AKs with a collapsible buttstock... That’s really a pity. If that’s the gun the guys are getting then $1150 a pop is a robbery.


Weren’t SFs supposed to procure FN SCARs and maximis and NVGs and stuff...