Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

zapper

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Oct 10, 2019
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@Milspec @Gautam @zapper @Maximus

With AK 203 orders almost done.

Import ban of 101 items., will it change anything?

And Indian private sectors are all lining up with Rifle making.

Among the private sector, who has done work in the lines of R & D?

Who appears promising?

Afterall we need more than license building to develop our industry.
There's no confirmation that AK-203 contract being finalized. MoD formed a costing committee to come up with a fair pricing. The variant we're getting isn't even an AK-203 but a hybrid of AK-103 and 203 to reduce the overall costs which still ended up costing $1000-1100 a rifle which is in line with our Sig-716 deal. Though the Sig-716 is a DI variant and not short stroke gas piston, it's inherently better when compared to the AKs imo...I've seen civilian variants of both here in the US. Coupled with OFB's shoddy manufacturing, I expect the quality to be nothing better than other OFB junk

Among the private sector, who has done work in the lines of R & D?
No private Indian defence firm has done R&D on small arms as of now. Even SSS Defence, though they own the IP is most probably designed by western consultants...my guess is LMT since they initially intended to partner and form a JV but due to ITAR regulations, they opted otherwise and went the Caracal route of hiring consultants. Recently read on Other Forum that SSS has been stealing designs from some firm (check out this link )

1598374067404.png

All other firms have only formed JVs with foreign partners which shows they'd be nothing more than manufacturing partners doing nut and bolt job...I doubt to what extent they'd do the machining here
 

Sathya

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Dec 2, 2017
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There's no confirmation that AK-203 contract being finalized. MoD formed a costing committee to come up with a fair pricing. The variant we're getting isn't even an AK-203 but a hybrid of AK-103 and 203 to reduce the overall costs which still ended up costing $1000-1100 a rifle which is in line with our Sig-716 deal. Though the Sig-716 is a DI variant and not short stroke gas piston, it's inherently better when compared to the AKs imo...I've seen civilian variants of both here in the US. Coupled with OFB's shoddy manufacturing, I expect the quality to be nothing better than other OFB junk


No private Indian defence firm has done R&D on small arms as of now. Even SSS Defence, though they own the IP is most probably designed by western consultants...my guess is LMT since they initially intended to partner and form a JV but due to ITAR regulations, they opted otherwise and went the Caracal route of hiring consultants. Recently read on Other Forum that SSS has been stealing designs from some firm (check out this link )

View attachment 17425

All other firms have only formed JVs with foreign partners which shows they'd be nothing more than manufacturing partners doing nut and bolt job...I doubt to what extent they'd do the machining here
I don't really bother if they beg borrow or steel .. If they can bring R& D into the industry it's ok.

Suddenly Rifle making seems made easy in India.
What's the point in making it in India if we still doing the same nut & bolt job.

We are going to make in private industry instead of OFB.

Better to sell OFB for that.
 

zapper

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Oct 10, 2019
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I don't really bother if they beg borrow or steel .. If they can bring R& D into the industry it's ok.

Suddenly Rifle making seems made easy in India.
What's the point in making it in India if we still doing the same nut & bolt job.

We are going to make in private industry instead of OFB.

Better to sell OFB for that.
You can't expect Indian engineers who have no prior experience in arms manufacturing to come up with a rifle of international standards, particularly given IA's flawed and stringent procurement process. Private firms can't even hire OFB employees since they suck big time, most em of got in through reservations. The best way forward is the Caracal route, hire western consultants - doesn't necessarily need to be from a big name since smaller firms in the US also design some pretty good weapons. Sub $500 ARs from BCA or PSA are anytime better than the best OFB has manufactured
 
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Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
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You can't expect Indian engineers who have no prior experience in arms manufacturing to come up with a rifle of international standards, particularly given IA's flawed and stringent procurement process. Private firms can't even hire OFB employees since they suck big time, most em of got in through reservations. The best way forward is the Caracal route, hire western consultants - doesn't necessarily need to be from a big name since smaller firms in the US also design some pretty good weapons. Sub $500 ARs from BCA or PSA are anytime better than the best OFB has manufactured
Why not? Did they miss all of the design classes in their engineering syllabus?

You have one of the largest standing fighting force in the world, what stops the engineers from taking 5 soldiers out for lunch and asking them what they exactly want, it's really not rocket science, at which we are surprisingly pretty good?
S.Korea makes good guns, croatia for heavens sake makes excellent rifles, Ishapore probably is one of the oldest ordnance factories around the world, and we cannot make good guns? Look at those blackmiths at dara adamkhel, even with limited resources are making pretty good looking stuff from pot metal. And here we have engineers, apparently cream of the crop, hired for PSU's like OFB who build shit like Ashani Pistol.

I want all of you to look at this:

This is from OFB India Website
1598391457469.png


This piece of garbage is sold by OFB at $1150

Guess what you can get for $1150

Here are the contempraries
1598391718674.png


1598391811666.png
 
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zapper

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Why not? Did they miss all of the design classes in their engineering syllabus?

You have one of the largest standing fighting force in the world, what stops the engineers from taking 5 soldiers out for lunch and asking them what they exactly want, it's really not rocket science, at which we are surprisingly pretty good?
S.Korea makes good guns, croatia for heavens sake makes excellent rifles, Ishapore probably is one of the oldest ordnance factories around the world, and we cannot make good guns? Look at those blackmiths at dara adamkhel, even with limited resources are making pretty good looking stuff from pot metal. And here we have engineers, apparently cream of the crop, hired for PSU's like OFB who build shit like Ashani Pistol.

I want all of you to look at this:

This is from OFB India Website
View attachment 17429

This piece of garbage is sold by OFB at $1150

Guess what you can get for $1150

Here are the contempraries
View attachment 17430

View attachment 17431
First up, PSU engineers are not the cream...infact most of em are SC/ST reservation candidates who could barely get through engineering. The only reason they're there is bcz they bribed their way in or reservation or know someone. I personally interned in two PSU's (not DPSUs) and all they do is laze around. Some don't even come to work since they have side hustles but the management doesn't care and they get paid on-time.

Secondly, if a private firm decides to take the input of soldiers...there's a ton of red-tape to even get hold of one since IA's top brass would want their cut even for such projects. Also, the way our men move and handle their weapons simultaneously is nothing on par with their western counterparts and let's not even talk about the pathetic state of weapons training for Indian police

This video where the Israeli trainer says Mumbai's Force-1 commandos when initially setup aren't even aware that they could move and fire simultaneously...what could be more embarrassing!! So unless you're able to get a hold of Special Forces units (though their operational strategies and tactics are different), you couldn't get a credible input

If we want the IP to be Indian and eventually encourage small arms development from the private sector, hire western consultants and design a weapon on par with what most military units consider the best out there (FN-SCAR,HK-416/417, M4 etc) while training their engineering teams
 

Sathya

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Dec 2, 2017
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All this indicates , scientists who are capable of R & D from India are not employed in Govt or Private sectors.
Probably leaving India I guess.

So many companies are there in India with big pockets,who could invest and make in India.. Why aren't they doing it.

Is our system so bad, they're sure it's going to wasteful expenditure?
 
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Milspec

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All this indicates , scientists who are capable of R & D from India are not employed in Govt or Private sectors.
Probably leaving India I guess.

So many companies are there in India with big pockets,who could invest and make in India.. Why aren't they doing it.

Is our system so bad, they're sure it's going to wasteful expenditure?
ISRO?
Why aren't they doing it... two key terms ROI, ROCE, Return on Investment , and Return on Capital Employed.
A reliance can make much more ROI and ROCE by setting up businesses selling chinese made trinkets online, or by selling you groceries, or potato chips, or sugar water drinks or alcohol.

Everyone on the forum including me, hopes for a Private paricipation transforming Indian defence, but the bottom line is Private players are only going to invest when there is enough RoI and RoCE in the market available to them.

So it's a bit of catch 22
 

Milspec

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First up, PSU engineers are not the cream...infact most of em are SC/ST reservation candidates who could barely get through engineering. The only reason they're there is bcz they bribed their way in or reservation or know someone. I personally interned in two PSU's (not DPSUs) and all they do is laze around. Some don't even come to work since they have side hustles but the management doesn't care and they get paid on-time.

Secondly, if a private firm decides to take the input of soldiers...there's a ton of red-tape to even get hold of one since IA's top brass would want their cut even for such projects. Also, the way our men move and handle their weapons simultaneously is nothing on par with their western counterparts and let's not even talk about the pathetic state of weapons training for Indian police

This video where the Israeli trainer says Mumbai's Force-1 commandos when initially setup aren't even aware that they could move and fire simultaneously...what could be more embarrassing!! So unless you're able to get a hold of Special Forces units (though their operational strategies and tactics are different), you couldn't get a credible input

If we want the IP to be Indian and eventually encourage small arms development from the private sector, hire western consultants and design a weapon on par with what most military units consider the best out there (FN-SCAR,HK-416/417, M4 etc) while training their engineering teams
So your solution is a La-Marut HF24 route. I am not sure if that will work.

I am often surprised with this disdain for ground up engineering? Conceptualizing- designing- fabricating-testing- failing/passing - loopback; to the drawing board is a very good activity. Thats how you create expertise - Example - ISRO - PSU
 
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zapper

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So your solution is a La-Marut HF24 route. I am not sure if that will work.

I am often surprised with this disdain for ground up engineering? Conceptualizing- designing- fabricating-testing- failing/passing - loopback; to the drawing board is a very good activity. Thats how you create expertise - Example - ISRO - PSU
By the time some private Indian firm designs and develops a reliable assault rifle from ground up and put to IA's extensive and never ending trails (look at how long Dhanush, ATAGS etc were tested and still no contract in sight), the boat would've already sailed since MoD would be pressurized by OFB and IA's corrupt top brass to go ahead with 700k AK-203s...more might be ordered if Paramilitary and state police also start considering. So these private Indian firms who took the pain to develop an AR from ground up wouldn't see any significant orders for the next 30 years except for a few minor orders from some state police SWAT units or the likes. I'm not saying it isn't worth the wait since that would definitely pave the way for indigenous development and self-reliance on small arms but I'd say, take advantage of the upcoming order which'll fastrack the development of small arms industry

ISRO or any other aeronautical company couldn't be compared to a small arms manufacturer since most countries/companies wouldn't be willing to share sensitive and highly complex space/aviation tech
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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So your solution is a La-Marut HF24 route. I am not sure if that will work.

I am often surprised with this disdain for ground up engineering? Conceptualizing- designing- fabricating-testing- failing/passing - loopback; to the drawing board is a very good activity. Thats how you create expertise - Example - ISRO - PSU
The hf 24 route is basically what you are suggesting. The main design is indigenous and consultancy is done by a foreign company or individuals that are hired by the company. Ofb needs to hire some foreign consultants from Germany and the U.S to design and manufacture firearms. The job of QC can also be given to them. The Chinese did exactly this with their z10 where they used the help of Kamov to design a helicopter. The way UAE did. The same way the Koreans took help of Lockheed Martin to make the KAI T 50 golden eagle.
Screenshot_20200826-144805.jpg
Screenshot_20200826-144902.jpg


India needs to first learn to design sub- components to design successful rifles. We cannot design ground up tech because we will have to invest in it. The private firms do this for us. That's what Kalyani did with his howitzer copying gc 45. It's better to copy or steal if it's as good as the foreign product. Even the Russians are copying and even buying western equipment. Just look at any Russian spec ops unit they aren't much different in gear than western spec ops unit and the company basically copy western equipment where they don't have a counterpart. That's how you leapfrog arms development. SSS defence has had JV with a lot of companies and is going solo only now before this LMT which has made extremely great rifles selected by multiple militaries still they did not get selected.
Also please don't have any faith in the OFB do to anything good. It's still stuck in the 80's that's why browning MG's,sig sauer rip-off's with wooden furniture are called world class rifles. It's for the same reason Arjun is a bad tank. They never compare there tech with contemporary arms company and make stuff with the lethargy and attitude of a 1980's government organisation..
 
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zapper

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I don't know where else to ask this, but are the RR well trained at COIN tactics like fire and move... Relative to western Forces, how well trained are RR, disregarding the equipment. @Parthu @Milspec @Ashwin
It's relative and one cannot say if a particular unit is better trained than the other just bcz they have better reputation. Few years ago during a pan India paramilitary exercise, Assam rifles and some state police unit triumphed over others including the NSG
 
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Killbot

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It's relative and one cannot say if a particular unit is better trained than the other just bcz they have better reputation. Few years ago during a pan India paramilitary exercise, Assam rifles and some state police unit triumphed over others including the NSG
No I meant that RR are trained specifically for COIN right? So I was wondering how they compare with western Forces in terms of tactics.
 

Killbot

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I hope they select the C4 style.
much needed change... Do you know from where this photo was taken?
I hope they select the C4 style because it is functional sand provides comfort. And you can tell their ranks without having to peak at their shoulder. And also the shirt isn't tucked in... Got rid of that archaic rule.
 
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Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
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much needed change... Do you know from where this photo was taken?
Army official twitter release, I think.
I hope they select the C4 style because it is functional sand provides comfort. And you can tell their ranks without having to peak at their shoulder. And also the shirt isn't tucked in... Got rid of that archaic rule.
I am more interested in the QZ combat T-shirts and of course the snow camo. The current camo used in Siachen isn't bad, but it could be so much better.