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The future rifle of US is not yet confirmed to be 6.8mm. It is not yet popular round. Many claim that the 6.8mm is useless for everything than useful for anything.
I agree with your view that an intermediate round somewhere between .223 and .308 might be the holy grail post-2020...however with regard to why Army switched back to 308 from the 6.8x43mm, I'm thinking maybe they thought it was too much of a risk? They could not put aside the fact that they now had to rely on OFB & ARDE to not only prove a new rifle, but prove it with essentially a new calibre: one chambered for which there aren't many options to acquire even on the international market.

Even then, with the way Army's requirements are changing, the current 308 too might not be something set in stone yet. I've come to expect that from the Army and MoD.



The future US Army service rifle program (NGSW) seeks a cartridge in precisely this range (more powerful than the 5.56, but lighter than the 7.62). NGSW is meant to be M4 replacement.

Cartridges that buck the trend aren't impossible to adopt on a large scale...look at Chinese PLA's QBZ-95 chambered for 5.8x42mm.



The one in front is a spare magazine holder. Yes it's meant to hold a 2nd loaded magazine, for potentially faster reloading.
 

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
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I agree with your view that an intermediate round somewhere between .223 and .308 might be the holy grail post-2020...however with regard to why Army switched back to 308 from the 6.8x43mm, I'm thinking maybe they thought it was too much of a risk? They could not put aside the fact that they now had to rely on OFB & ARDE to not only prove a new rifle, but prove it with essentially a new calibre: one chambered for which there aren't many options to acquire even on the international market.

Even then, with the way Army's requirements are changing, the current 308 too might not be something set in stone yet. I've come to expect that from the Army and MoD.



The future US Army service rifle program (NGSW) seeks a cartridge in precisely this range (more powerful than the 5.56, but lighter than the 7.62). NGSW is meant to be M4 replacement.

Cartridges that buck the trend aren't impossible to adopt on a large scale...look at Chinese PLA's QBZ-95 chambered for 5.8x42mm.



The one in front is a spare magazine holder. Yes it's meant to hold a 2nd loaded magazine, for potentially faster reloading.
Would having this spare mag holder be added weight - go against DSR w.r.t the RFI?
 

Ashwin

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DAC Clears Procurement of Entire Range of Personal Weapons for Three Services
The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Raksha Mantri Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman, met here today and accorded approval to Capital Acquisition Proposals of the Services and Coast Guard valued at approximately Rs 9435 crore.



In a major boost to the Make in India initiative the DAC accorded approval for procurement of 41000 LMGs and over 3.5 Lakh Close Quarter Battle Carbines under Buy and Make (Indian) category These weapons are an essential component of a soldier’s fighting equipment and will provide a major filip to the fighting capability of the troops. Out of total quantities envisaged, 75 percent will be through Indian Industry under 'Buy & Make (Indian)' category and balance through OFB. The earmarked quantity for the OFB has been kept to optimally utilise their infrastructure and capacity, as well as provide a window for assimilation of critical technologies towards building indigenous capability in Small Arms manufacturing. The total cost for procurement of Carbines and LMGs for the soldiers of the three Services is Rs 4607 crore and Rs 3000 crore respectively.



The vintage of personal weapons, Assault Rifles Carbines and LMGs being operated by the troops of the three Services, especially by soldiers positioned on the borders and in areas affected by militancy has been a cause of concern for over a decade. The Government has been conscious of the requirement to modernise basic fighting weapons for the soldiers and has therefore accorded utmost priority to these cases. With the approval of these two proposals, the Government has cleared procurement of the entire range of personal weapons for the three Services. Of these, immediate operational requirement for the soldiers deployed on the borders will be procured through Fast Track Procurement and for the balance production lines will be set up in India.
 

Milspec

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I agree with your view that an intermediate round somewhere between .223 and .308 might be the holy grail post-2020...however with regard to why Army switched back to 308 from the 6.8x43mm, I'm thinking maybe they thought it was too much of a risk? They could not put aside the fact that they now had to rely on OFB & ARDE to not only prove a new rifle, but prove it with essentially a new calibre: one chambered for which there aren't many options to acquire even on the international market.
New rounds means money, especially if it is not in use in Indian forces at all. And yes stepping to a modern optimized cartridge would mean more expensive proposition. The advantage lies in a Single round effectively replacing the 5.56x45, 7.62x39, 7.62x51N and the 7.62x54R effectively for the Indian Army.

Rounds like 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, 300 blackout AAC, .375 Reaper and a few others will fit in the Stanag Magazines double stacked while rounds like .488 socom will fit the same magazine in single stack while .50 beowulf and .440 Corbon and .50AE with a spacer.

6.5 grendel and 6.5 SPC with changes in the upper receiver of most modular rifles should be able to accommodate the calibers. 5.56 rifles that uses Stanag Magazines like the HK G36, M16s, HK416, Galil Ace, Scar L, Bushy ACR, SIG 556, most of them are natural contenders to be able to switch out to 6.5Grendel and 6.8 Spc.
 
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Aditya

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Dec 2, 2017
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In a major boost to the Make in India initiative the DAC accorded approval for procurement of 41000 LMGs and over 3.5 Lakh Close Quarter Battle Carbines under Buy and Make (Indian) category

Means jvpc just got rejected.Hardly a boost to Make in India as the article claims.On the plus side 3.5 lakh orders to a private industry in gun manufacturing is always welcome, even if it's licence production.
 
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Please back your TALL claim of it being useless - by some actual reports
6.8 is still a small bullet compared to 7.62x51 and is more or less comparable to 7.62x39 or AK47 bullet.

Cartridge of 6.8 is a shorter bullet and has lower diameter which makes it transfer less energy than 7.62x51 and also makes it lower in speed to 5.56, thus having reduced flat ballistic trajectory.

6.8mm overall serves a similar purpose as 7.62x39 and not 5.56 NATO or 7.62 NATO. 6.8mm is a substitute of AK-47 and not of any of the other two caliber.

If you have any data that says otherwise, please say so.
 

Ashwin

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Means jvpc just got rejected.Hardly a boost to Make in India as the article claims.On the plus side 3.5 lakh orders to a private industry in gun manufacturing is always welcome, even if it's licence production.
This is just DAC clearance. There is no RFI out yet for the category. JVPC is the only indian small arm with a clear shot of wide acceptance IMO.
 
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vstol Jockey

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My daughter is an Asst Cmdt with coast guard. She fired INSAS-1B, Amogh, 1911 and SMC including JVPC yesterday as part of Exercise Pashchim Prahar. She told me that Amogh and JVPC were fun to fire. No stoppage at all. She fired over 90 rounds each from both of them and was highly impressed with the accuracy of both. She fired them in repeat and auto mode. No stoppage whatsoever. She even fired full clip with both in auto mode. What shit is IA peddling about these weapons? Bloody sold out idiots.
 

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
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6.8 is still a small bullet compared to 7.62x51 and is more or less comparable to 7.62x39 or AK47 bullet.

Cartridge of 6.8 is a shorter bullet and has lower diameter which makes it transfer less energy than 7.62x51 and also makes it lower in speed to 5.56, thus having reduced flat ballistic trajectory.

6.8mm overall serves a similar purpose as 7.62x39 and not 5.56 NATO or 7.62 NATO. 6.8mm is a substitute of AK-47 and not of any of the other two caliber.

If you have any data that says otherwise, please say so.
Again ! - what you have posted is pretty much the technical specs which have have been posted before - in other forums !!

Please post your Claim that it is useless!
 
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vstol Jockey

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When My daughter was to join INA, Azhimala, I taught her HAT-Holding, Aiming and Trigger operations of guns to get best results. The stance to fire in either standing, prone, sitting or running position is very important. And maintaining that stance while moving is even more important. The standing stance should be taken by first spreading your legs equal to your shoulder width, than take a step forward from your non triggering hand which is equal to your shoulder width. Now, bend forward from the waist where you tie your belt such that your closed eye is exactly above the thumb of the foot you have put forward. Take the aim and fire. You will need least or no requirement to readjust your aim to do repeat fire or auto fire. Watch any video of commandos walking with their guns trained and compare it to what I have told you here. Thats how it is done the world over.
My daughter shocked everyone in INA also with her accuracy of fire. In fact in that history channel documentry about INA, her shooting skills were edited out as she was a Coast Guard candidate.
 

Parthu

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Would having this spare mag holder be added weight - go against DSR w.r.t the RFI?

No, even with the spare mag it's well within the stipulated weight limit.

As of being heavier/more difficult to operate while shooting, AMRs of this type are meant to be fired while lying down prone or otherwise in a position that makes use of the gun's bipod for support....and anytime the shooter is free to remove the spare mag from the holder and store it on his person if he wants.

Means jvpc just got rejected.Hardly a boost to Make in India as the article claims.On the plus side 3.5 lakh orders to a private industry in gun manufacturing is always welcome, even if it's licence production.

For this category they want a carbine in 5.56x30mm, weighing less than 3 kgs.

There really aren't any foreign options. The only viable non-Indian carbine in this calibre would be the Colt MARS...and that gun is not even being produced. It was only a prototype for this round. And I've no idea if it can meet the weight limit, even if by some miracle it manages to come into production.

607-GX-MARS_zps2d6c26eb.jpg

^^ Not actually the MARS carbine, only a possible representation

In short, for this category we have no realistic option other than Amogh or JVPC. This requirement is as tailor-made for Indian guns as it can get.
 

Aditya

Blackjay
Dec 2, 2017
26
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For this category they want a carbine in 5.56x30mm
You sure?Article didn't mention the calibre.Very good news if you have a source.


This requirement is as tailor-made for Indian guns as it can get.
I was commenting on how it's under buy and make(Indian) category.Which is for buying a foreign system and license producing it with TOT.JVPC and AMOGH obviously come under IDDM category.

However,if you are right about the bullet calibre in official document.Then it's all good news only.
(y)(y)(y)
 

Parthu

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Nah army prefer 5.56x45 mm NATO rounds also weight less than or equal to 3 Kgs while JVPC weigh 3.05 Kg.

View attachment 1925

It doesn't say 5.56x45...it only says 5.56mm, which can also mean the 5.56x30mm MINSAS. Furthermore the TPCR clearly says a carbine in 5.56x30mm is needed.

Unlikely a weight of +/- 50 grams would matter.

Either way, the only other possible competitor here (in 5.56x30mm) is the Amogh carbine weighing in at 2.95 kgs.
 
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MINSAS is exclusively Indian caliber and not used anywhere else. There is an added burden of logistics and making a new cartridge with limited use. It is never practical to use such rounds. Instead of MINSAS, it is better to go for 9mm rounds. At least the 9mm is a common round and is used in pistols issued to army
It doesn't say 5.56x45...it only says 5.56mm, which can also mean the 5.56x30mm MINSAS. Furthermore the TPCR clearly says a carbine in 5.56x30mm is needed.

Unlikely a weight of +/- 50 grams would matter.

Either way, the only other possible competitor here (in 5.56x30mm) is the Amogh carbine weighing in at 2.95 kgs.
 

Parthu

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Well, there you have it.

Latest requirements state the 5.56x30mm as the preferred cartridge. All talk of 5.56x45mm CQB carbine is gone.

I guess you're right but TPCR said effective range of 100 m??

That's about reasonable for a PDW. Most submachine guns have effective ranges of about 100 meters only...although many of them (like MP-5) have sighting up to 200m, it's near impossible to retain any accuracy with the 9x19mm at those ranges. 100m it is.

Also, can JVPC fire 5.56x45 mm??

No.

MINSAS is exclusively Indian caliber and not used anywhere else. There is an added burden of logistics and making a new cartridge with limited use. It is never practical to use such rounds. Instead of MINSAS, it is better to go for 9mm rounds. At least the 9mm is a common round and is used in pistols issued to army

The 5.56x30mm MINSAS is already in mass production and is being supplied in quantity to various Police, CAPF as well as Coast Guard units. The Indian Army's small arms calibres are already pretty diverse - as we have long history of using both Western as well as Soviet-type cartridges. I certainly would have liked it if there was more streamlining when it came to resupply...but that's not going to happen.

9x19mm is simply too weak a cartridge for the battlefield, as proven by US engagements in Iraq & Afghanistan. That's why for the US Army XM17 handgun competition they decided to keep the cartridge requirement open-ended.

That's also the reason 5.56x30 was developed. The Army had to decide between commonality in resupply or effectiveness against targets, and they made their decision as we can see in the TPCR above.
 
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Isn't 5.56x45 fired from a smaller barrel better than MINSAS? What advantage does MINSAS offer compared to 5.56NATO? Do you have any idea?
Well, there you have it.

Latest requirements state the 5.56x30mm as the preferred cartridge. All talk of 5.56x45mm CQB carbine is gone.



That's about reasonable for a PDW. Most submachine guns have effective ranges of about 100 meters only...although many of them (like MP-5) have sighting up to 200m, it's near impossible to retain any accuracy with the 9x19mm at those ranges. 100m it is.



No.



The 5.56x30mm MINSAS is already in mass production and is being supplied in quantity to various Police, CAPF as well as Coast Guard units. The Indian Army's small arms calibres are already pretty diverse - as we have long history of using both Western as well as Soviet-type cartridges. I certainly would have liked it if there was more streamlining when it came to resupply...but that's not going to happen.

9x19mm is simply too weak a cartridge for the battlefield, as proven by US engagements in Iraq & Afghanistan. That's why for the US Army XM17 handgun competition they decided to keep the cartridge requirement open-ended.

That's also the reason 5.56x30 was developed. The Army had to decide between commonality in resupply or effectiveness against targets, and they made their decision as we can see in the TPCR above.