Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[vstol Jockey]

It has now been made public that the revised offer of EFT was considered very seriously by the INT-Indian Negotiating Team and was over ruled by majority in INT. But if you all remember my previous posts on my support for Rafale, you will know that I have been proven correct. I had stated that France is a very dependable ally and can be trusted in case of a war while some of our systems might get grounded due to sanctions. The latest case of murder of a Saudi guy in Turkey has forced Germany to impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia completely throwing off the EFT sales to that kingdom. EFT has four nations with very different rules about export of weapons while France is one single country. So by any and every point of view, the decision to go with Rafale and France is a correct decision. However I still maintain that France could have done better in terms of pricing. I fail to understand how can anyone ever do business of arms with Germany.
Paisa woh jo jeb main ho, stree woh jo apni bhyata ho aur talwar woh jo apnay haath main ho. sirf yeh hee kaam aatay hain baki sab bakwaas.

 

[Sancho]

The simple fact you keep harping on this deprives you of all credibility; because, once again, all he said was that the French government did not have any say on who the industrial partners would be

=>

Hollande on a question about who selected Reliance as a partner and why, said it was the Indian government that proposed Reliance’s name and Dassault had no choice but to take the company given to it.

“We did not have a say in that. The Indian government proposed this service group, and Dassault negotiated with Ambani. We did not have a choice, we took the interlocutor we were given,” said Hollande.

Former French President Francois Hollande on Reliance getting Rafale offsets - 'We did not have a choice' - The Financial Express

=>

cronyism

the situation in which someone important gives jobs to friends rather than to independent people who have the necessary skills and experience

CRONYISM | Bedeutung im Cambridge Englisch Wörterbuch

 

[Sancho]

The latest case of murder of a Saudi guy in Turkey has forced Germany to impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia completely throwing off the EFT sales to that kingdom.

That's factually wrong, because German government has clarified, that only new deals would be effected and even that related on German exports (naval vessels MBTs).

EFT has four nations with very different rules about export of weapons while France is one single country.

=>

A jet sale to Egypt is being blocked by a US regulation, and France is over it

...“It is true that we depend on this (U.S. International Traffic in Arms Regulations) mechanism: We are at the mercy of the Americans when our equipment is concerned,” French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly told the Committee for National Defense and Armed Forces of the lower-house National Assembly, according to recently released transcripts from July 4.
France lacks the means to be totally independent of the U.S., she said, adding that French authorities are looking for ways to boost its autonomy. Parly was answering a question from parliamentarian Jean-Jacques Ferrara on the blocked sale of a further batch of Rafale aircraft to Egypt.

“Are we looking to improve the situation?” Parly said. “The answer is yes. In the case raised by Mr. Ferrara, we cannot get the U.S. to lift its opposition to the sale of Scalp missiles."

A jet sale to Egypt is being blocked by a US regulation, and France is over it

So much for 1 country and sanction prone choice and if we talk about dependable in war times, one need to keep in mind, that yes it were French fighters that showed excellent performance, but it were US bombs, that were integrated by Israelis, that made it possible! Interestingly Mirage and Rafale in IAF don't get French bombs anymore, but Israeli instead. So we already need approval of Israel and the US for Mirage and Rafale and if Brahmos really gets integrated, Russia will play a part too.

Most importantly, it was Dassault that showed their unreliability in the MMRCA negotiations, by rejecting Indian rules, which puts Indian and IAF pilots at risk today!

Rafale was the best fighter during MMRCA 1.0, but Dasault made the procurement impossible. The 2nd best choice was the EF and that's why we should have asked for a competitive proposal in the separate deal.

I fail to understand how can anyone ever do business of arms with Germany.

Have you seen Germany's defence Export ranking? Their political views on sanctions are not stopping arms exports. Not to mention that the quality of arms and techs is the key for their success, which is well acknowledged in the world and even India itself (Dhruv, Marut, Arjun all based on German design and technical know how, LCA and NLCA consultancy and DRDO AWACS EW by EADS, proposal for joint adanced trainer version by EADS, proposal for EJ 200 + TVC ToT by MTU/Indra, proposal to jointly develop a stand off PGM during...).

Guess why the French are buying German rifles now, or want to benefit from teaming up with Germany on Euro Male drones, NG fighter, or MBT projects?

 

[Ashwin]

But the fact at this point is, that such an allegation from the highest French official is very credible, while there was no response from the PM and even the press releases that followed, didn't stated that Hollande was wrong!

There is nothing to directly respond to when even the authenticity of the report is under question. Statements from both sides clarified it was up to Dassault to chose the partner. What else you need?

Being an MoU has nothing to do with the cronyism allegation, but it's just a convinient term the government used. MoUs are not as detailed as the Rafale deal announcement, nor are such deals usually done during foreign visits (as NDA officials confirmed ahead of the visit). What happened after that, was the contract negotiation part and not fixing the deal anymore and that then might had been done by the book, since MoD was involved the. The question however were about the procedures "ahead" of the announcement and the government always tried to avoid answering that. Let's see if SC or CAG can find out why?

Didn't really get what you are saying here. There was no 'deal' announced !.

How is the choice of rafale is the question? If it was any other fighter it would have been a legitimate question. Rafale was the already the winner by every parameter. Thus the logical choice for an emergency purchase.

Because there was no tender, where Dassault and Co, needed to reply to an RFP, that was bound to DPP rules [not that Dassault cares much about DPP rules anyway].
This was a single vendor deal, as a result of G2G talks, so the PM could have proposed to buy 36 fighters off the shelf, with Reliance as the main offset partner, being a requirement and the French government then informs Dassault about it. Dassault only later needs to say, they have chosen Reliance that's all, when the contract negotiations were on.
The same would aply if the PM had insisted on Adani and Dassault then would have moved with them.

You can't refer to the DPP when the whole deal was done bypassing the DPP in the first place!
No tender, no DAC or CCS approvals, no option clause, no involvement of the DM at all, not even IAF is ready to confirm, that they were involved in the planing of that deal, or requested it. So where was the DPP used before the announcement?

Also add the fact, that Hollande and Trappier now confirmed, that they were surprised with the deal and that they had no informations about it, Dassault was not even part of that he talks.

This also confirms, that there was no grand plan behind it, the MMRCA was in a deadlock the to Dassault and the Rafale deal was the unilateral decision of the PM, to get out of it and act decisive at least for a few months.

If they had done it by the book, they had cancelled MMRCA first and then searched for an alternative, with MoD and IAF included, but that's not what happened and why it's so difficult for the government to defend the deal.

So you think G2G does not come under DPP ? Then what procedure is it followed? Is there a secret procedure we don't know about?

This entire argument is based on this question, clarify it first.

Within the framework of the September 2016 Inter-Government Agreement between France and India, Dassault Aviation has sold 36 Rafale aircraft to India. In compliance with the Indian regulations (Defence Procurement Procedure) and as frequent with such a contract, Dassault Aviation has committed to offsets in India worth 50% of the value of the purchase.

Rafale contract for India: clarifications by Dassault Aviation

Dhingra said: “As per the defence procurement procedure (DPP), ministry of defence has no role in the selection of Indian partners by the foreign vendors. This has been the position right from 2005 when offsets were first introduced in the country.” In the more than 50 offset (export obligations) contracts signed in the country till date, the same process has been followed, he said. “Therefore, this is a deliberate attempt to mislead people and cloud the issue.”

Rafale deal from Dassault, not defence ministry: Reliance Group

DPP-2016:

This also confirms, that there was no grand plan behind it, the MMRCA was in a deadlock the to Dassault and the Rafale deal was the unilateral decision of the PM, to get out of it and act decisive at least for a few months.

A good leader takes decisions based on the situation. When MMRCA is in a deadlock and IAF going for a slow death it was a good decision, maybe not the perfect.

If they had done it by the book, they had cancelled MMRCA first and then searched for an alternative, with MoD and IAF included, but that's not what happened and why it's so difficult for the government to defend the deal.

Are you kidding me, you want another parallel MMRCA to purchase urgent 36 planes?

You can't refer to the DPP when the whole deal was done bypassing the DPP in the first place!
No tender, no DAC or CCS approvals, no option clause, no involvement of the DM at all, not even IAF is ready to confirm, that they were involved in the planing of that deal, or requested it. So where was the DPP used before the announcement?

• It's fully according to DPP-2016 Buy (global)
• There is no tender because its a G2G/emergency purchase.
• DAC approval was given after a month of paris IGA.
• CCS clearance on 24 Aug 2016
• DM is part of CCS and DAC.
• For this particular deal, IAF was even involved in the price/tech negotiations.

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1058806769378566145

 

[A Person]

=>

Former French President Francois Hollande on Reliance getting Rafale offsets - 'We did not have a choice' - The Financial Express

No. What you're seeing is a biased translation in an Indian newspaper.

Again, yes, "not having a choice" was entirely normal, the French government was not supposed to have a choice here! That's the rules! Dassault negotiating with Ambani directly is also the rules! Because these negotiations cannot go through the French government! Do you actually understand how this works?

The entire hubbub is built on just one part of the interview, where he says that the Government of India suggested this group. From that you're supposed to infer that the GOI suggested only this group. This is a very weak attack vector, however, because:

1. What would be the point of making suggestions to someone who cannot make a choice anyway?
2. We know Reliance is not the only offset partner for Dassault, and is not even the biggest (that would be the DRDO).
3. We also know that Dassault had been in touch with Reliance since before Hollande's first term as a President.

Again, the entire thing about this interview was Hollande wanting to cover his own *censored* from allegations that Reliance Entertainment funding 16% of a movie in which Julie Gayet plays was somehow connected to the Rafale deal. So he says that no, the choice was not in his hands in the first place.
Rafale deal: No room for doubt after Hollande 'clarification', says Rajnath

You should instead look more at Rahul Ghandi's contacts with Lockheed Martin, if you want some really scandalous things to talk about.

 

[halloweene]

Oh btw, RB008, first indian Rafale, been flying ofr a month now. @Sancho, there are already iszsues for NGF about expot policies being fixed. Because in 1971 there were Debré/Schmidt agreements stating that both countries could export common projects to who they wished to . These agreements were betrayed reglarly by Germany (for an exceptionality clause) and France will not go with Germany without this very point fixed. France only need German money to biuld SCAF tbh. There is no military tech where it lags behind Germany. Germany was iven the lead for Eyurodrone (and imposed a twin engined), but SCAF lead is given to France.

 

[Bon Plan]

Oh btw, RB008, first indian Rafale, been flying ofr a month now. @Sancho, there are already iszsues for NGF about expot policies being fixed. Because in 1971 there were Debré/Schmidt agreements stating that both countries could export common projects to who they wished to . These agreements were betrayed reglarly by Germany (for an exceptionality clause) and France will not go with Germany without this very point fixed. France only need German money to biuld SCAF tbh. There is no military tech where it lags behind Germany. Germany was iven the lead for Eyurodrone (and imposed a twin engined), but SCAF lead is given to France.

Le premier a volé ? C'est certain ?

 

[Sancho]

There is nothing to directly respond to when even the authenticity of the report is under question. Statements from both sides clarified it was up to Dassault to chose the partner. What else you need?

Again, there is not a single source that stated Hollandes statement was untrue and it's the former president of France, when it comes to credibility of a source, it hardly gets more official.

The referral to the DPP is useless, because the problem is the "proposal" by the Indian government!

How is the choice of rafale is the question?

- single vendor deal although there was another complying fighter
- no approval by MoD or IAF ahead of the announcement
- cut down numbers
- no licence production
- no ToT
- no standard option clause
- no fast tracking

=> completely against the requirements and MoD standard procures

A good leader takes decisions based on the situation. When MMRCA is in a deadlock and IAF going for a slow death it was a good decision, maybe not the perfect.

Wrong! A good leader don't make uneducated spontaneous decisons, but asks people with knowledge what solutions are available and then takes the right decision, to meet the goals! The PM did exactly the opposite and that's what makes it such a bad deal.

Are you kidding me, you want another parallel MMRCA to purchase urgent 36 planes?

Ehm what do you think the government is trying for 3 years? Set up a parallel MMRCA tender while procuring 36 Rafales.
But there was never an emergency request for such a deal by IAF, they wanted to move away from Rafale to an alternative, if there is no solution with Dassault.
I on the other hand, would have preferred a G2G deal for 126 fighters including licence production, which is what was the aim from the start anyway, just for Mirage 2000. But since Dassault blocked the MMRCA, the logical choice would have been to ask the EF partners for such a proposal, to not waste any more time. Instead we got a joke of a deal, without achieving a single objective.
Only if that wouldn't worked out a new tender would have been needed, but we missed that chance and the government delayed MMRCA for at least 4 more years!

 

[Sancho]

No. What you're seeing is a biased translation in an Indian newspaper.

Lol confirmed by Hollande and the French authors.

 

[Sancho]

Oh btw, RB008, first indian Rafale, been flying ofr a month now. @Sancho, there are already iszsues for NGF about expot policies being fixed.

As I wrote you on twitter, there are no issues if they aim for the right customers, EU/NATO countries. If they follow Dassaults export policy they will fail.

 

[Bon Plan]

Again, there is not a single source that stated Hollandes statement was untrue and it's the former president of France, when it comes to credibility of a source, it hardly gets more official.

Hollande was the worst president of the last 60 years.... He only win because the people don't want Sarkozy no more.
Please, trust us.
Hollande in its own camp was called "the pedalo captain" (in pic a "pedalo")

 

[Ashwin]

Again, there is not a single source that stated Hollandes statement was untrue and it's the former president of France, when it comes to credibility of a source, it hardly gets more official.

So, you conveniently missed the part were Hollande clarified his statement after the original report? It was probably planted or misinterpretation. Either way, people got played.

He later insisted to AFP that France “did not choose Reliance in any way”, but said he was unaware if India had asked Dassault to work with the group.

link

Asked if he knew whether India put pressure for the Reliance Group to work with Dassault, Hollande said that he was ‘unaware’ and ‘Dassault alone is capable of answering’ he added, anxious to not intervene in the Indian controversy.”

link

The referral to the DPP is useless, because the problem is the "proposal" by the Indian government!

I started is discussion saying its logically doesn't make sense for Dassault to obey any MoD 'proposal' of a partner because it's up to them to choose one under DPP-2016. Then Just before you said the entire deal is not under DPP. When i showed it is, you are giving me a conspiracy!

- single vendor deal although there was another complying fighter
- no approval by MoD or IAF ahead of the announcement
- cut down numbers
- no licence production
- no ToT
- no standard option clause
- no fast tracking

=> completely against the requirements and MoD standard procures

- Rafale was already selected L1, for urgent purchase, it makes lot of sense to go for it again.
- Every approval got ahead of the deal.
- Its an urgent purchase parallel replacement of MMRCA going on. So wrong.
- lol
- Yeah right !
- Why do you care if the current deal is 'bad' anyway.
- It was

=> Fully under DPP-2016 and even exceeds IAF MMRCA requirements with India Specific Modifications.

Wrong! A good leader don't make uneducated spontaneous decisons, but asks people with knowledge what solutions are available and then takes the right decision, to meet the goals! The PM did exactly the opposite and that's what makes it such a bad deal.

Nope, He announced the right decision with enough council. Procedures followed. Far better than indecision Sait antony says.

Ehm what do you think the government is trying for 3 years? Set up a parallel MMRCA tender while procuring 36 Rafales.
But there was never an emergency request for such a deal by IAF, they wanted to move away from Rafale to an alternative, if there is no solution with Dassault.
I on the other hand, would have preferred a G2G deal for 126 fighters including licence production, which is what was the aim from the start anyway, just for Mirage 2000. But since Dassault blocked the MMRCA, the logical choice would have been to ask the EF partners for such a proposal, to not waste any more time. Instead we got a joke of a deal, without achieving a single objective.
Only if that wouldn't worked out a new tender would have been needed, but we missed that chance and the government delayed MMRCA for at least 4 more years!

You are contradicting yourself. You don't need to be a defense analyst to understand the urgent requirement of the force. Last press conference by Air Chief proves everything you are saying false.

 

[A Person]

Lol confirmed by Hollande and the French authors.

Do you actually read French? Because I do. I know what he said, and what it actually means.

With your talent for believing in the sensational despite all rational evidence to the contrary, you should go on a mountain-hiking trip to make photos of the yeti.

 

[zinswinsin]

https://www.thresholdimages.com/articles/french-dassault-pulls-out-of-fighter-jet-competition

 

[randomradio]

https://www.thresholdimages.com/articles/french-dassault-pulls-out-of-fighter-jet-competition

I didn't think that would be a real problem. But the Americans do like to protect their comm stuff.

I suppose Typhoon has some chance since the UK is part of the Five Eyes, but I don't know what Saab is doing sticking around.

France was supposed to join it, making it Six Eyes, but the no-spy agreement came in the way.

 

[zinswinsin]

I didn't think that would be a real problem. But the Americans do like to protect their comm stuff.

I suppose Typhoon has some chance since the UK is part of the Five Eyes, but I don't know what Saab is doing sticking around.

France was supposed to join it, making it Six Eyes, but the no-spy agreement came in the way.

It's 99% likely to be political cover.

How did they just realize this was gonna come up.

Rafale has withdrawn from a shit ton of competitions lol.

 

[R!cK]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060029469098946563

 

[randomradio]

It's 99% likely to be political cover.

How did they just realize this was gonna come up.

Rafale has withdrawn from a shit ton of competitions lol.

We shouldn't forget that the level of sensor fusion on the Rafale doesn't allow it much leeway if they are not allowed to integrate the comm tech being used. The Rafale is not much without its comm and datalinks.

Regardless, they withdrew right after the draft RFP was released. So it's obvious the tender is just another dog and pony show for the F-35.

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060029469098946563

Delivering a few months before schedule can be a massive PR win for Dassault.

With clean chits from the CAG and SC, an early delivery will pave the way for more Rafales at a faster pace.