Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Hydra said:
What about the canrard, IRSTs, also the dimension.
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From the front, the biggest reflectors are the inlets followed by the cockpit. As long as those two are taken care of, the RCS will be very small. Wings are the third biggest.

Canards spoil RCS only in some flight regimes, not all the time. In level flight, the canards do not contribute much to RCS.

RCS of IRSTs can be made to be irrelevant by forcing signals to bounce around inside it.

Dimensions? Not really relevant. It's about design, not size.
 
xxxxx said:
why does the United States not use it? Why doesn't Russia use
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Because United States focus on electronic attack using its air force Russia focuses on wide band jamming using ground ew combined with a crude version of American style SEAD missions systems while the Chinese copy whatever the Americans and Russians do. The French having a small force use active cancellation effectively becoming invisible provided spectra will be effective against Aesa's as it is against pesa's. The don't need massive strike packages because that's not their doctrine of fighting.
 
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xxxxx said:
Especially the F16, which is almost the highest level of the fourth-generation single-engine fighter design, good instant rotate ability, leading stable rotate ability, outstanding climbing ability, incredible continuous high overload ability
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Yeah but now it's an outdated design. All of the eurocanards will defeat the f-16 in bvr as well as wvr. The f-15 is as good as your older flankers with their barn-house sized rcs. The thing will be used as a bomb truck by the USAF nothing more.
xxxxx said:
At the Zhuhai Air Show last year, all radars have popularized GaN components, and even anti-artillery radars use GaN.
The so-called electronic warfare lead, how can you be sure that you can get the lead?
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Name one deployed radar system in the pla that uses GaN because not even U.S has started mass deploying them. This is either low IQ propaganda, no way the Chinese develop GaN in 2012, but somehow can't even make proper microprocessor chips without western assistance. Your klj7a has such a pathetic performance it's low key hilarious how you guys are taken seriously..
 
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STEPHEN COHEN said:
No matter how hard we try , MK 2 cannot be fast tracked

We are still struggling with MK 1A , and MK 2 is an entirely new plane

My feelings and wishes are exactly similar to you , but we cannot overlook hard facts and realities

Both PAF and PLAAF are rapidly modernising and we are stuck up with only 36 RAFALES
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There's no way we can match China in numbers...heck even the west can't and all we have to hope for is our western platforms are technically more capable with our pilots better trained to keep em at bay

In regards to PAF, their original plan was to modernize their current F-16 fleet while getting more latest blocks but with US blocking both F-16s, AH1Zs and the likes and the possibility to deny spares etc...they looked for what's an economically feasible solution being the JF-17 which they're inducting in hundreds but they do know JF-17 is no match for the Rafales (they've trained along Qatari pilots) which is why they procured the exact number of 36 J-10s to match our Rafales

Again, we don't know the capabilities of J-10 nor it has ever been battle tested but it is a force multiplier to PAF. If IAF inducts an additional 36 Rafales, what's stopping PAF to get a similar number of J-10s since at this point, I believe China is just loaning em for free to keep India at bay given pak's economy. If we continue inducting these piecemeal orders as direct imports, IAF love for foreign maal will never wither and only more power to the import lobby
_Anonymous_ said:
I'm speculating that the GoI wants to order 36 ( or 54 ) nos more for IAF & close the chapter on this topic at least for the time being with a window being kept open for additional procurements towards the end of the decade. The IAF seems adamant to go in for an additional 114 vide the MRFA tender in a single purchase.
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randomradio said:
You are expecting a lot if you think the IAF will pin their hopes on a post 10-year indigenisation plan over importing a readymade jet today. Even ADA/HAL can't promise what you're expecting. Hell, no one can.

Self-reliance is a 20-year plan for the IAF. MRFA is a 5-year plan. I don't know how people are mixing the two so easily.
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Given the pace at which our negotiations go, all the allegations and often unrealistic demands...I'm confident IAF wouldn't get it's first MRFA jet be it license manufactured or CBU import within 7 years particularly if it's the Rafale given their order book
 
zapper said:
There's no way we can match China in numbers...heck even the west can't and all we have to hope for is our western platforms are technically more capable with our pilots better trained to keep em at bay

In regards to PAF, their original plan was to modernize their current F-16 fleet while getting more latest blocks but with US blocking both F-16s, AH1Zs and the likes and the possibility to deny spares etc...they looked for what's an economically feasible solution being the JF-17 which they're inducting in hundreds but they do know JF-17 is no match for the Rafales (they've trained along Qatari pilots) which is why they procured the exact number of 36 J-10s to match our Rafales

Again, we don't know the capabilities of J-10 nor it has ever been battle tested but it is a force multiplier to PAF. If IAF inducts an additional 36 Rafales, what's stopping PAF to get a similar number of J-10s since at this point, I believe China is just loaning em for free to keep India at bay given pak's economy. If we continue inducting these piecemeal orders as direct imports, IAF love for foreign maal will never wither and only more power to the import lobby
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Be that as it may we've already paid for 2 bases to house 4 squadrons of Rafales . So whichever way you see it we need another 2 squadrons. Ideally we should be ordering 3 just to plug in our shortfall & to take care of both our northern & western fronts apart from expediting the Sukhoi upgrades ASAP .

I don't expect the Mk-1a's to arrive in it's full numbers before 2029-30 . The progress of the other programs are beyond our control as of now.

Frankly if the idea was to go in for the MRFA tender we should have initiated the process immediately after the 1st tranche of the Rafales were ordered since the MMRCA tender was scrapped in 2015. We'd have been in the negotiations stage now pending signing of the contract in a year or 2 from today .

Yet for some inexplicable reason we didn't do so with the IAF taking to drafting the SQRs in Dec 2021 & now it's is behaving like a petulant child .
 
xxxxx said:
Oh my God
, the RCS of the Rafale fighter can reach 0.06, probably only in a dream
Since the so-called active stealth is so good, why does the United States not use it? Why doesn't Russia use it? Why doesn't China use it?
France has not yet produced available GaN components. China achieved the ability to mass-produce GaN components for military use in 2012. At the Zhuhai Air Show last year, all radars have popularized GaN components, and even anti-artillery radars use GaN.
The so-called electronic warfare lead, how can you be sure that you can get the lead?View attachment 22736

Except for the fifth generation machine, no one can say that the F15 and F16 are behind,
Especially the F16, which is almost the highest level of the fourth-generation single-engine fighter design, good instant rotate ability, leading stable rotate ability, outstanding climbing ability, incredible continuous high overload ability
The masterpiece of the fighter mafia

wrong,
In 2018, J10C shot down an Indian cross-border reconnaissance balloon with a PL10 at an altitude of 20,000m
As for Pakistan, they have been using Chinese radars except in JF1block1, they can choose European products if they want
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m.blog.naver.com

Rafale__라팔 주제 인도 토론 자료-라팔 F3R 버전의 SPECTRA 증진 프로그램 DEDIRA 과 INCAS

http://indiandefence.com/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-398#post-584235 Home > Fo...
m.blog.naver.com m.blog.naver.com
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Are both the DeDiRA & INCAS integrated with the Rafales of the French & Indian AFs or only with the French AF ?
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Normally this would be a part of F4, I'm looking forward to the release of F4.1 and F4.2 to see if this is true. Normally also the Indian Rafale should be configured to receive these upgrades easily but if your government did not want to give the details of the price of ISE it is probably to hide these features.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
Normally this would be a part of F4, I'm looking forward to the release of F4.1 and F4.2 to see if this is true. Normally also the Indian Rafale should be configured to receive these upgrades easily but if your government did not want to give the details of the price of ISE it is probably to hide these features.
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When are the F4 series upgrades expected to commence ? Also if can you share any links or write ups on SPECTRA & it's various features as of today including the upgrades planned and something on the F4 & F5 upgrades .

When are you expecting the GaN AESA radars on your Rafales ?
 
_Anonymous_ said:
When are the F4 series upgrades expected to commence ? Also if can you share any links or write ups on SPECTRA & it's various features as of today including the upgrades planned and something on the F4 & F5 upgrades .

When are you expecting the GaN AESA radars on your Rafales ?
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Too much questions, I'm old now...
 
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Picdelamirand-oil said:
Too much questions, I'm old now...
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I asked for I didn't pay much attention to the technicalities of the Rafales earlier going by anecdotal evidence of the superior quality of French products in general especially it's engineering products & the fact that alongside the US & Japan very few nations like France , UK , Germany & a few other European nations like Sweden & Italy to an extent enjoy such a standing .

One is referring to both civilian & military products in this context.

Russia has an impressive portfolio as well but has fallen behind in recent times. South Korea & Turkey have made impressive strides

It's only since undersized urchin @WHOHE started raising doubts @xxxxx started denigrating the Rafales that my interest was piqued.
 
_Anonymous_ said:
Thanks for this.
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Rafale Jets Evade All Radars, Air Defence Systems; Bombs Turkish Facilities In Libya​


EXPERT REVIEWS
ByEurAsian Times Desk

July 12, 2020

Recently, the al-Watiya airbase in Libya was reportedly bombed by Rafale jets, which either belonged to France or Egypt, the two nations within the range of the base that possesses these (Rafale) aircraft, writes the Arab Weekly.

The report quoting its sources called the attack by Rafale jets as a response to Turkish Defence Minister Hulusi Akar’s visit to Libya.

The Turkish presence in Libya is highly undesirable to both Egypt and France and the former has even warned to intervene militarily in Libya if the Turkish-backed militias tried to head towards Sirte. France has also called the Turkish moves as “unacceptable,” emphasising that it would not permit this to continue.

But this recent airstrike on al-Watiya airbase reportedly by 4++ generation Rafale jets displayed that the boundaries in airspace differ from the boundaries on land drawn by Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi. Indeed, basing fighter jets and drones in al-Watiya pose a direct threat to any military deployed in the region.

Sisi has discussed the possibility of directly intervening in Libya, pointing out that Egypt “will not allow the conflict in Libya to cross the Sirte line.” He also emphasised that “with regard to Egypt’s security, al-Jufra is a red line that we will not allow any force to cross.”

The Tripoli government accused “a foreign air force” of bombing al-Watiya base, without furnishing any information on the identity of the aircraft or the targets attacked. Even though Turkish and Qatari media rejected any casualties, the Libyan source, however, claimed that many Turkish soldiers were injured or dead in the airstrikes by Rafale jets.

A retired Libyan army officer revealed to Arab Weekly that a squadron of fighter planes launched a series of airstrikes on al-Watiya base, where Turkey had deployed F-16 aircraft, Bayraktar TB2 and Anka-S drones, backed by a MIM-23 Hawk air defence system with its radars.

He further said that the air raids targeted the al-Nadab quarters at al-Watiya base, which the Turkish forces on the base had used as their headquarters since last May. Also targeted were Sungur air defence systems, fixed and mobile radar installations and Koral signal jamming system, which the Ankara had deployed at al-Watiya base.

Libyan parliament member Ibrahim al-Darsi later acknowledged and “the airstrikes were launched by forces all too well-known to us,” and added that the targets of these attacks were “a clear message and constituted a strong and painful slap in the face of Turkish President Erdogan and his proxies in Libya, especially the militia government headed by Fayez al-Sarraj.”
 
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randomradio said:
This is just like the missile range issue.

You have become confused between "average RCS" and "aspect RCS".

My estimates based on open source info.
Average RCS
F-35 = 0.15m2
F-22 = 0.3m2
Su-57 = 0.5m2... Sukhoi claims 0.1 to 1m2
Su-57M = <0.5m2

Frontal RCS
F-35, F-22, Su-57 = RCS of sparrow 麻雀 = approx 0.0003m2
B-2 = 0.0001m2 class
F-117 = 0.001m2 class
Rafale, Gripen E, LCA Mk2, Super Hornet B3 = <0.1m2
Typhoon, SH B2, LCA Mk1, Mig-35, M2000 = <1m2
F-16C/D, Mig-29M/K = 1.2m2
Mig-21, Su-35BM = 2-3m2
F-16A/B, Mig-29S = 5m2
Su-27, Su-30, F-15 = >15m2

As per a Dassault executive, Bruno Revellin-Falcoz:
Bien sur nous somme dans des domaines un peu confidentiel, mais disons que la signature vue par l'avant d'un Rafale c'est la signature d'un moineau (麻雀).

Translation:
Of course we are in areas somewhat confidential, but we can say that the front view signature of a Rafale is the signature of a sparrow (麻雀).

This is achieved with active cancellation. Normal RCS is <0.1m2.
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Of course I know that the planes are in different bands, in different directions, and have different RCS values
Well, let's assume the Rafale can achieve RCS=0.06.
Don't you hang missiles and drop tanks? , you can check out the huge impact this has on stealth,
Do you only fight with cannons?
And there are so many raised sensors on the surface of the Rafale fighter, how much will this affect the stealth?
In the design of stealth fighters, even the seams of the skin of the aircraft will have a huge impact on the RCS value, and the Rafale fighter can reduce the frontal to -30db by only using the S-type air intake, do you ignore the frontal IRST, and the filler pipe? This is an obvious source of scattering
Dassault executive's words are hard to convince
Even if you can use electronic warfare to make China unable to detect you, it will not be a problem for me to find the source of interference, right? So what's the point of your active stealth?
 
Lolwa said:
Because United States focus on electronic attack using its air force Russia focuses on wide band jamming using ground ew combined with a crude version of American style SEAD missions systems while the Chinese copy whatever the Americans and Russians do. The French having a small force use active cancellation effectively becoming invisible provided spectra will be effective against Aesa's as it is against pesa's. The don't need massive strike packages because that's not their doctrine of fighting.
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First of all, you said that the United States relies on the air, Russia relies on the land, and China copies everything, which is a stereotype in itself. Electronic warfare has its own system. The US Army and the Russian Air Force have good electronic warfare capabilities. As for the French example of Libya, if If I remember correctly, Turkey has only deployed Hawk
Can you tell me what's wrong with KLJ7A?
 
Lolwa said:
Yeah but now it's an outdated design. All of the eurocanards will defeat the f-16 in bvr as well as wvr. The f-15 is as good as your older flankers with their barn-house sized rcs. The thing will be used as a bomb truck by the USAF nothing more.
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I think you seem to have forgotten that the Rafale is a fighter jet that first flew in 1986, only 10 years later than the American F16, and its aerodynamic foundation is based on the aerodynamic principle of single vortex system coupling
 
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