Kinda HAL-GTRE question.
Who hold the ToT for Type 209s and Scorpenes? MDL or Navy?
The Kilos are almost rebuilt from ground up by NDs, so that know how is with Navy for sure.
Project-76 Indigenous Diesel-electric Submarine (SSK) Program
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Who hold the ToT for Type 209s and Scorpenes? MDL or Navy?
The Kilos are almost rebuilt from ground up by NDs, so that know how is with Navy for sure.
No it's not. HAL has history of design.
It's production ToT, nothing to do with design. Same goes for kalvari. We don't have any design data.
Over simplification by people who don't know what they are talking about.
To build something so complex doesn't it matter? I feel it does. To get a product ready you have a lot of things to do. That know how about Type 209 might not help in stage 1 or stage 2 of the process, but it sure does help in stage 3.
Case in point South Koreas submarine program.
Who said it doesn't matter? It matters to build. Designing is an entirely different engineering skill. Just because you have production ToT, you won't be able to suddenly design a new sub of similar capacity.
South Korea is an engineering powerhouse. At one point, Japan and SA designed and build two third of all shipbuilding capacity every year.
Not sure how true, but sounds plausible:
A 4.5 to 5 MW diesel electric drive. So, the P-76 submarine can be expected to be around 3000 - 4000 tons in displacement.
A 4.5 to 5 MW diesel electric drive. So, the P-76 submarine can be expected to be around 3000 - 4000 tons in displacement.
Doesn't seem to have AIP. What's the point then??
L&T should join the P-75I project. Increase the number to 9 from 6, doesn't matter the costs. Subcontract those additional 3 to L&T, let them iterate on that design.
I don't think people realise how dire india's sub-surface fleet capabilities are. Wasting 10 yrs on an ancient design is unnecessary. PN will have an edge on IN simply because their chinese submarines come with AIP.
20yrs wasted on a French design with no AIP, now let's waste 10 more years, again with no AIP.
Just watched the video. It's an uplscaled version of their midget submarine. Navy's submarine design agency collaborated with them, so presumably some tech from Kilo or Scorpene class would've gone into this design. He didn't say anything about the diesel engine that would go into it, which is one of the hardest things to design with acceptable noise levels. Any guesses?? I think they'll just buy something off-the-shelf, probably from MTU.
Just join the P-75I at this point & incorporate that into your industrial base. That's a better place to start.
People shouldn't take that image seriously, it's just a generic placeholder. The design will take 1.5 yrs to complete.
L&T should join the P-75I project. Increase the number to 9 from 6, doesn't matter the costs. Subcontract those additional 3 to L&T, let them iterate on that design.
I don't think people realise how dire india's sub-surface fleet capabilities are. Wasting 10 yrs on an ancient design is unnecessary. PN will have an edge on IN simply because their chinese submarines come with AIP.
20yrs wasted on a French design with no AIP, now let's waste 10 more years, again with no AIP.
Just watched the video. It's an uplscaled version of their midget submarine. Navy's submarine design agency collaborated with them, so presumably some tech from Kilo or Scorpene class would've gone into this design. He didn't say anything about the diesel engine that would go into it, which is one of the hardest things to design with acceptable noise levels. Any guesses?? I think they'll just buy something off-the-shelf, probably from MTU.
Just join the P-75I at this point & incorporate that into your industrial base. That's a better place to start.
People shouldn't take that image seriously, it's just a generic placeholder. The design will take 1.5 yrs to complete.
Right now, it's all speculative.
However, L&T has established credibility in sub design thanks to SOV400 and its extensive involvement in the Arihant and likely P-77 SSN progs.
What I find most intriguing about this cutaway is the hump right behind the sail ostensibly carrying swimmer delivery vehicles. That section could possibly accommodate other systems like VLS. The design of the sail does look much more refined than SOV 400, imo, especially the curved fairing at the base. That's a feature only seen on USN LA and Virginia class boats so far.
Looks like they have been working on this for a while now. Excited to see what the final design looks like.
However, L&T has established credibility in sub design thanks to SOV400 and its extensive involvement in the Arihant and likely P-77 SSN progs.
What I find most intriguing about this cutaway is the hump right behind the sail ostensibly carrying swimmer delivery vehicles. That section could possibly accommodate other systems like VLS. The design of the sail does look much more refined than SOV 400, imo, especially the curved fairing at the base. That's a feature only seen on USN LA and Virginia class boats so far.
Looks like they have been working on this for a while now. Excited to see what the final design looks like.
Wrong the IAF itself was not serious about MCA/AMCA! It had nothing to do with Per Capita GDP.
You know when IAF pulled out of FGFA program & got serious for AMCA? And when AMCA got official funding?
IAF pulled out of FGFA in 2018! Yes, 2018, only seven years ago.
Withdrawal from FGFA: The Decision and Way Ahead
And AMCA got official funding in 2024 only, before that AMCA was a side project for IAF.
Wrong the IAF itself was not serious about MCA/AMCA! It had nothing to do with Per Capita GDP.
You know when IAF pulled out of FGFA program & got serious for AMCA? And when AMCA got official funding?
IAF pulled out of FGFA in 2018! Yes, 2018, only seven years ago.
Withdrawal from FGFA: The Decision and Way Ahead
www.vifindia.org
And AMCA got official funding in 2024 only, before that AMCA was a side project for IAF.
What are you saying? South Koreans were funding the development of testing infra, preliminary design studies and associated technologies since 2010-11, way before the KAI KFX was actually even awarded. That's what a serious country does.
Compare that to India where MoD-IAF-PMO setup had drawn up ASQR in 2010, but it took almost 15 years to move on seriously.
Even today the trip of idiots are delaying AMCA development by trying to build private capacity.
And it has everything to do with GDP per capita.
They are richer because they are smarter and make right decisions.
Its also easier to be rich when youve to manage small population, needing smaller cost to develop. Also helps when since creation you've been supported by a superpower with economical and technology clout like none other in past.
Really helps when you don't have to grapple with socialism and communism inside.
Smarter? Nah. Good decision? Definetly yes. Remember, we chose govt. Govt doesn't chose us.
Note: Only regarding korean economic decision since it's inception. Not a commentary on FA.
They lost half their country to communists. Do not defend the un-defensible.
They were not supported anymore than we were.
Study the rise of Samsung in South Korea.
They struggled more than India in 50s.
But they realised as a nation what was important. Education for its population and industrialisation at all costs.
India didn't have it better either bro.
The British rule, partition, nehrus socialism, Indira's license raj and sycophancy.. Add to that the decade lost with sanctions, corruption hampering investments..
It's a miracle we are where we are today
Excuses all along.
I will take this opportunity to put a counter and as well as bring the discussion back to Submarines for this thread.
India assembled 2 Type 209s, and gained enough expertise to overhaul and upgrade them in-house (although with imported components)
India is successfully overhauling and upgrading Kilos now (offering this service as an export)
India built/assembled 6 Scorpene Class submarines.
And India designed, built and commissioned 2 SSBNs.
Now compare this to Taiwan, who in 2016 decides to start a submarine acquisition program. Almost the same time when talks of Project 76 become serious.
Taiwan without any history or pre existing capacity, ropes in consultants from around the world, buys off the shelf technologies, builds and today has its own indigenous SSK in water.
And where's India in the meanwhile? We would be lucky to have our 1st SSK in water 10 years later than that of Taiwan.
Wh
It's not like it was crowdfunded?
What does that have to do with gdp per capita?
It's not like it was crowdfunded?
It is because that's the reason why Finance Ministry hits down half the cleared proposals.
And then we start the whole process again and eventually sign the same system 10-15 years late at 2 times the cost.
That thing is as indegenious as our Kalvari class.
If we were to use mostly foreign parts and put them in a design of a sub which is made mostly with the help of foreign companies, we would have put made the "so called indegenious" sub decades ago.
What we are building is actual indegenious industry, know how, know why, our own sonar tech, our own AIP etc, our own propulsion tech, our own design etc.
The only difference Taiwanese one kalvari class is on paper origin as far as Indegenious-Ness go.
The design of Taiwanese sub is based on dutch design with some Japanese elements and design was made with the help of japanese(more like Japanese did most of the work).
The Taiwanese sub does not have aip, something our navy wouldn't accept.
There are ever rumour it lack anechoic tiles.
**The first submarine of the class, Hai Kun, is estimated to have cost ~$1.54 billion dollars.Close to more than 40% of the components are of domestic origin.**
If we wanna go taiwan route, we can just change the on paper origin of kalvari class, and boom we have domestic ssk in Operational service.
Plus in terms of its propulsion, specs, the Taiwanese sub seem behind other modern day subs.
Wait. I think I get what you mean. Aren't you saying gdp per capita is important because govt has to spend on more people even if nominal gdp is higher than others but gdp per capita is low ?
If that's your case, then aren't we saying same thing? Cause gdp per capita has very much to do with India's size. South Korea could do it because it has to manage a lot less with help of a lot more resources at hand. No doubt they worked hard but it's certainly easier to manage a family of 4 than family of 14.
But for you above points, I do believe there's a solution. It's called indigineous development. Strong Manufacturing base. Because while nominal gdp is lower.. gdp PPP ( purchasing power parity) remains better ( not optimum). And building manufacturing will increase this even if dollar strengthens. Because dollar matters in imports only na.
So, coming back to submarine development.. And our SSK plans, do we know what supply chain have we created for it? Even if the signature isn't there, it's not like it's avoidable. Govt will sanction the project and navy knows this too. So, have we created the industrial base that streamlined the whole process. Because it's not just about the contract on paper right? Surely, the companies must have invested in tier 2,3 supply chains and technology required to build it. Not everything can be or should be in house constraint the resources and risky.
Or are they gonna start from scratch only after there's signature? Then that's a bigger issue than lack of contract for n number of subs.