Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

randomradio

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The sub program is headed towards a single-vendor situation only with respect to AIP. But if you combine AIP requirements with the fact that the Koreans are not offering VLS, it would mean none of the participants will meet requirements.

The IN is going to have to work with the OEMs they choose if they want a sub in the end. Or they will have to pin their hopes on DRDO's PAFC on an indigenous design.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Nov 30, 2017
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Whatever happens, should happen fast.

Meanwhile the Navy should work with DRDO to test and certify the AIP on the older Type209. And DRDO should start work on Lithium power.

If this is going to get delays get 3 more Scorpene.
 

Gautam

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Whatever happens, should happen fast.

Meanwhile the Navy should work with DRDO to test and certify the AIP on the older Type209. And DRDO should start work on Lithium power.

If this is going to get delays get 3 more Scorpene.
Totally agreed. We should've gone for more Scorpenes by now while the production line is up & running. Should order the recently offered Kilos too, if not too expensive. Investing more on the Type209 seems like a waste at this point.

Over the years we have invested greatly on ASW capabilities. Often the best way to counter a sub is another sub. I would've loved to see more Kamortas being ordered, not sure we have the budget for that.

As for Li-ion AIP, I am not sure that's a great plan. One of the reasons they went for a PAFC is because it can be made entirely in India. Li needs to be imported. Aluminum-Air batteries might be an alternative.
 

Bon Plan

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the Koreans are not offering VLS
They have installed it on their last subs. x6 VLS and a next batch to come with 10

Spain's Navantia has had one setback after another in the design of its new class of S-80 attack submarines.

Another setback that must make DCNS (Naval Group) engineers smile: the French industrial group had blasted the attitude of the Spanish group Navantia, ten years ago. Since the 1990s, the two groups had been in partnership for the design of Scorpene-type submarines... until Navantia made "a child in the back" to the French group. In 2008, the Spaniards abruptly withdrew from the Scorpene project (keeping the accumulated knowledge), to build, in collaboration with the Americans, the S-80 class. The latter will be in direct competition, on the international markets, with the Scorpene... now 100% French, after a negotiation before the International Court of Arbitration, to consummate the divorce.

The old proverb For want of a nail about a king who lost his kingdom because his horse had a faulty shoe nail is a staple in school to teach us that the little things can make a world of difference. Like a mistake caused by a misplaced decimal point that can take years and cost billions to rectify!

The S-80 project has seemingly become a laughing stock for technology mismanagement and planning.

The first of four S-80 class submarines was expected to be ready by 2015, but its builders and the Spanish Navy uncovered a potentially fatal flaw in its design in 2013. The first S-80 was over 100 tonnes heavier than specified and serious doubts emerged about its capability to resurface from underwater. Personnel in Spain's ministry of defence later attributed the problem to the fact that the design team had “misplaced” a decimal point in weight calculations and the navy had added new systems to the submarines.

To modify the defects on the S-80 design, the Spanish government contracted the services of an American submarine builder, Electric Boat. Electric Boat and Navantia then “resolved” the weight problem of the S-80, by lengthening the submarine's hull by over 8 metres to nearly 80 metres, also adding hundreds of tonnes in displacement.

The S-80 submarines, which will now displace over 3,000 tonnes underwater, have a new problem, though—they are now too long to be docked at the Spanish Navy's base at Cartagena.

The cost of the S-80 project is expected to reach nearly euro 4 billion, from the initial budget—allocated in the previous decade—of euro 2 billion.

As a result of the weight and length problems, the first S-80 submarine is expected to enter service only by 2022, nearly seven years late. The submarine is also having problems with its fuel cell air-independent propulsion (AIP) system.

The irony of the story does not end there: the modifications could not be applied to the first of the four models. The S-81 (Isaac Peral) was already too far advanced in its construction and would only be modified after delivery. The AIP propulsion system, which allows the submarine to stay underwater for a fortnight, may not be able to move a vessel that is 50% heavier, and will in any case only be delivered in 2026, on the third model.
Add to that the electrical motor is now weak for this heavier sub. The speed perf will be lower than calculated. At least for the first unit.
 

Hydra

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So, we will not be having new sub class induction in near by future, and no new AC too. The plan for new AC is replaced by submarine induction program due to Bipin ji's pressure.
The sub program is headed towards a single-vendor situation only with respect to AIP. But if you combine AIP requirements with the fact that the Koreans are not offering VLS, it would mean none of the participants will meet requirements.

The IN is going to have to work with the OEMs they choose if they want a sub in the end. Or they will have to pin their hopes on DRDO's PAFC on an indigenous design.
Spanish S80,french & russians are still around.
 

randomradio

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Totally agreed. We should've gone for more Scorpenes by now while the production line is up & running. Should order the recently offered Kilos too, if not too expensive. Investing more on the Type209 seems like a waste at this point.

Over the years we have invested greatly on ASW capabilities. Often the best way to counter a sub is another sub. I would've loved to see more Kamortas being ordered, not sure we have the budget for that.

As for Li-ion AIP, I am not sure that's a great plan. One of the reasons they went for a PAFC is because it can be made entirely in India. Li needs to be imported. Aluminum-Air batteries might be an alternative.

Right now, the best option is to exercise the Russian offer for 3 Kilos. It will come with mostly Indian tech.

As for Scorpene, it's still not entirely clear why the IN did not exercise options. Only one of the reasons is it's not suitable for its future role. It's too late now anyway.

The Type 209s are undergoing upgrades, and it's the best option to make DRDO's AIP seaworthy before introducing it on the Scorpene.

Li-ion is a requirement for P-75I though.

A Kamorta successor is planned under the NGC moniker.
 
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randomradio

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They have installed it on their last subs. x6 VLS and a next batch to come with 10

Yeah. Apparently, for whatever reason, the Koreans are saying they are not going to offer VLS.

Add to that the electrical motor is now weak for this heavier sub. The speed perf will be lower than calculated. At least for the first unit.

For P-75I, the OEM's will have to introduce a 5MW Indian-designed electric motor.
 

randomradio

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Spanish S80,french & russians are still around.

The article covered it. None of them have seaworthy AIP.

Only Type 214 and KSS III have AIPs in the water. So the others will face an automatic rejection during paper evaluations unless the IN change their minds about it.
 

Bon Plan

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Spanish S80,french & russians are still around.
S80 is fitted with a US combat system... not nice. And it is late, overbudget, fatter.
The game seems to be between France and Russia. May depend on the support for next gen SSN....
Only Type 214 and KSS III have AIPs in the water. So the others will face an automatic rejection during paper evaluations unless the IN change their minds about it.
This is why it is strange to see the germans out.
The Pakistani Agosta are fitted with AIP, for years....
 

randomradio

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This is why it is strange to see the germans out.

They offered the Type 218. It appears 3 months is not enough time to reply to the RFP. It's possible the MoD may provide a 3-4 month extension though, although the Germans want a minimum of a year.

I think it has more to do with the fact that they need additional time for R&D rather than anything else.

The Pakistani Agosta are fitted with AIP, for years....

The IN want fuel cells based AIP.
 
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Hydra

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The article covered it. None of them have seaworthy AIP.

Only Type 214 and KSS III have AIPs in the water. So the others will face an automatic rejection during paper evaluations unless the IN change their minds about it.
Yeah, that claws can be modified if IN is ready, here what happens like Swedish did in past with p75I. They just doesn't wants to quote, reason is chances are nil for them to win or provide the boat with that limited allocated funds by India for the deal.
 

RISING SUN

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S80 is fitted with a US combat system... not nice. And it is late, overbudget, fatter.
The game seems to be between France and Russia. May depend on the support for next gen SSN....

This is why it is strange to see the germans out.
The Pakistani Agosta are fitted with AIP, for years....
Pakistani Augusta can't be tested by IN, isn't the working AIP test condition now in proposal?
 

Lolwa

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The Korean design is pretty much on par with German design. And Korea already has a cruise missile and submarine launched ballistic missile solution..
 

Bon Plan

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The Korean design is pretty much on par with German design. And Korea already has a cruise missile and submarine launched ballistic missile solution..
The Korean design is a direct derivative of a german design. They don't have the whole back ground and knowledge of the world wide specialist of classical sub.
Is it a ballistic missile or a cruise missile their solution? Is it their missile or a US one?
 

Lolwa

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The Korean design is a direct derivative of a german design. They don't have the whole back ground and knowledge of the world wide specialist of classical sub.
Is it a ballistic missile or a cruise missile their solution? Is it their missile or a US one?
I know korean is basically an upgraded type 209. But it's pretty advanced and has some similarity with the soryu class. I don't know the Koreans export their cruise missiles. But they have two submarine launched missiles.
The new class will have a submarine version of the Korean Vertical Launching System which will be able to carry up to ten indigenous "Chonryong" land-attack cruise missiles and "Hyunmoo" submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM)
Hyunmoo-3 - Wikipedia
So we can most probably add these along with the nirbhay and Brahmos.
Will make a variety of tactical standoff weapons. The only other close submarines in our service are scorpene but they don't have ballistic missiles. And the arihant doesn't have a cruise missile capability. Also the Koreans have one of the most potent 533mm torpedoes so honestly would be great if we buy these..
Also the Koreans have one of the most heavily armed navies. The KSS 3 was the most heavily armed subs in the tender. I really hope the Koreans aren't
blue balled here because it's a good sub which is going to be screwed due to our procurement policies again..
 
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Ankit Kumar

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The *censored*ups by SK in the frigate program of Philippines will discussed by the Navy. As will be the Indonesian Navy, which falling to the Nagpasha program with South Korea has been looking officially towards Naval Group and TKMS for Scorpene and Type 214.

A simple G2G deal with France should have taken place ideally. But alas I am sure we will pick up the worse option possible.