Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

[Rajput Lion]

Man, at least sign the damn Rafale deal. It's embarassing, man.

Not until French agree to shrare ICD with us. This is a deal-breaker.

Maybe SU57 deal is already secretly signed just like Vietnam.

Nope. No contract is signed with Russia, only primary agreement for acquiring Su-57s with both "off-the-shelf" and local-production has been reached with them. But actual deal/contract is still "being negotiated".

 

[Tamilan57]

Not until French agree to shrare ICD with us. This is a deal-breaker.

Nope. No contract is signed with Russia, only primary agreement for acquiring Su-57s with both "off-the-shelf" and local-production has been reached with them. But actual deal/contract is still "being negotiated".

So the French are not even willing to share ICD with us. It's a damn shame man.

 

[Speedster1]

The PAF is mainly buying J-35AE to counter our S400s. They are also buying/developing a range of small ALCMs and SDB class guided bombs for internal carriage. The Turkish Kemankes CM is one example.

The Rafale deal looks imminent but Su-57 likely will take longer due to geopolitical factors.

In the meantime, we must leverage our strengths in the space domain to detect and counter 5G jets. Programs like EMISAT/SAMOOHA, multispectral EO/IR/SAR sats must be prioritized.

Even better if the sats could be designed for onboard data processing and realtime connectivity with IACCS/battery C2 posts.

 

[Sathya]

PAF won't get the J35 AE within next few years..
It s only roll out know in China ?

For it to fully integrate in PAF, with weapons and all , in decent numbers , with adequate support systems.. it ll take 5 -10 years i think.

Thats with necessary defence budget..

At present, Pakistan is to survive after next few weeks..

 

[lmaoxd]

Listen, the tejas mk1a with astra mk2/3 outmatches their JF17s so we are done here.
The tejas mk2 or rafale is more than enough for the J10CE with the astra mk2/3

What we need to counter is their j35AE. For this we need a su57 stopgap. Once the J35AE is confirmed a Su57 stopgap buy is quite literally guarenteed and a su57 deal is also the same. Even if we go for the F35 its not coming for a very long time so the su57 is the only option and the US knows it. CAATSA is useless in this case.

The french are continually delaying ICD approval just to stall for time for this j35 purchase to be confirmed and the first J35 to get into pakistani service. what they want is to squeeze us for more.

PAF won't get the J35 AE within next few years..
It s only roll out know in China ?

For it to fully integrate in PAF, with weapons and all , in decent numbers , with adequate support systems.. it ll take 5 -10 years i think.

Thats with necessary defence budget..

At present, Pakistan is to survive after next few weeks..

No, the PAF is the anchor and launch customer for the J35AE, theyre entire role is marketing. So they will get it within a year or at most 2.

 

[Speedster1]

PAF won't get the J35 AE within next few years..
It s only roll out know in China ?

For it to fully integrate in PAF, with weapons and all , in decent numbers , with adequate support systems.. it ll take 5 -10 years i think.

Thats with necessary defence budget..

At present, Pakistan is to survive after next few weeks..

The Saudis are probably bankrolling all this new stuff for their new 'strategic ally'. Besides, Trump has a few IOUs to the Pakistanis wrt Iran. So expect the Pakistanis to get J-35AE + new kit for their Vipers (AMRAAM C8, radar upgrades, etc) soon.

Even otherwise, the IMF is doling out billions of $ to the Pakistani govt to so cash won't be a problem. The PLAAF may also be willing to expedite deliveries to the PAF.

Though it will take a few years for J-35AE to reach IOC, the PAF will likely still fly close to the LOC/IB to test our AD responses and develop tactics.

 

[Sathya]

The Saudis are probably bankrolling all this new stuff for their new 'strategic ally'. Besides, Trump has a few IOUs to the Pakistanis wrt Iran. So expect the Pakistanis to get J-35AE + new kit for their Vipers (AMRAAM C8, radar upgrades, etc) soon.

Even otherwise, the IMF is doling out billions of $ to the Pakistani govt to so cash won't be a problem. The PLAAF may also be willing to expedite deliveries to the PAF.

Though it will take a few years for J-35AE to reach IOC, the PAF will likely still fly close to the LOC/IB to test our AD responses and develop tactics.

If Saudi didn't supply oil and gas in the next 3 weeks, (crude oil - 7 days , refined products - 21 days). Pak will be in lock down.. at present 8 hrs / day power load shedding.. diverting gas to power generation.

Seems India s position is also worsening at the moment with Air India cancelling flights ..
Gas booking crossing 25 days in city 45 days rural areas.

Hope we don't get into paks position.

 

[Speedster1]

If Saudi didn't supply oil and gas in the next 3 weeks, (crude oil - 7 days , refined products - 21 days). Pak will be in lock down.. at present 8 hrs / day power load shedding.. diverting gas to power generation.

Seems India s position is also worsening at the moment with Air India cancelling flights ..
Gas booking crossing 25 days in city 45 days rural areas.

Hope we don't get into paks position.

True that. But Trump still thinks the Iranians have not 'paid a big price' for blocking Hormuz+ there are reports he's now planning a hypersonic strike. Iran will respond with attacks across the ME, meaning more uncertainty and price rise.

LPG shortage will be offset by PNG atleast in Tier 1/2 cities. GoI is making it mandatory for consumers in areas w/PNG infra to switch.

AI is facing multiple challenges including route changes/overflight bans, rising ATF costs, airfare caps, etc. The situation is more or less the same for all airlines, except those based out of O&G producing countries.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The PAF is mainly buying J-35AE to counter our S400s. They are also buying/developing a range of small ALCMs and SDB class guided bombs for internal carriage. The Turkish Kemankes CM is one example.

Absolutely. And we are buying Su-57 to hunt attacking J-35AEs. Su-57 is the perfect "stealth-killer" jet out there at the moment.

The Rafale deal looks imminent but Su-57 likely will take longer due to geopolitical factors.

Actually the plan is to have at least 40 Su-57S(single-seat) by 2030 and then local production of minimum 100 jets(Su-60 2-seat) from 2030 to 2035. So both Rafale & Su-57 deal should be signed parallely or within 6 months of each other.

In the meantime, we must leverage our strengths in the space domain to detect and counter 5G jets. Programs like EMISAT/SAMOOHA, multispectral EO/IR/SAR sats must be prioritized.

Even better if the sats could be designed for onboard data processing and realtime connectivity with IACCS/battery C2 posts.

All of the above is happening simultaneously. But Su-57 is our only option to change the calculus in our favour post PAF's J-35AE acquisition.

PAF won't get the J35 AE within next few years..
It s only roll out know in China ?

Actually, now the "export" model has rolled out and is imminently heading for Pakistan. They may even start to get deliveries by the end of this year itself or by mid-next year.

For it to fully integrate in PAF, with weapons and all , in decent numbers , with adequate support systems.. it ll take 5 -10 years i think.

PAF pilots are already training in China. Chinese would make sure that PAF is ready to fight with J-35AE ASAP.

Thats with necessary defence budget..

At present, Pakistan is to survive after next few weeks..

Never underestimate their hatred towards us or the fact that many nations are not happy with our rise and would ensure that Pak remains a pain in our backside.

 

[Speedster1]

Absolutely. And we are buying Su-57 to hunt attacking J-35AEs. Su-57 is the perfect "stealth-killer" jet out there at the moment.

All of the above is happening simultaneously. But Su-57 is our only option to change the calculus in our favour post PAF's J-35AE acquisition.

We also need asymmetric capabilities like cyber, EW, ISR to deny the J-35AE the tactical 'first look, first shoot' advantage.

For example, infiltrate/disable its logistics syatem or use space based IR sats (currently under development) to ID the J-35AE on TO. We could effectively ground the entire fleet w/o firing a single shot or pick them off passively at BVR ranges.

You've mentioned the 'anti stealth grid' before. I'm simply saying that we extend it to the space domain.

Actually the plan is to have at least 40 Su-57S(single-seat) by 2030 and then local production of minimum 100 jets(Su-60 2-seat) from 2030 to 2035. So both Rafale & Su-57 deal should be signed parallely or within 6 months of each other.

Until the Ukraine stalemate continues, the sword of sanctions/tarriffs continues to hang over our heads. With the ME situation being what it is, GoI will not risk antagonizing Trump.

Imo, the 1st batch of 40 Su-57s will most likely be framed as a 'tit for tat' acquisition only after the PAF officially signs for J-35AE. That may still not be enough to fly under Orange's nose.

I guess GoI will try to gauge the US' current stance on CAATSA during Marco Rubio's upcoming visit to India later this month.

Since QUAD has been effectively eclipsed by AUKUS, exceptions will not come by w/o some kind of deal making. Btw, the interim trade deal still hangs in the balance.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We also need asymmetric capabilities like cyber, EW, ISR to deny the J-35AE the tactical 'first look, first shoot' advantage.

For example, infiltrate/disable its logistics syatem or use space based IR sats (currently under development) to ID the J-35AE on TO. We could effectively ground the entire fleet w/o firing a single shot or pick them off passively at BVR ranges.

You've mentioned the 'anti stealth grid' before. I'm simply saying that we extend it to the space domain.

Good points

Until the Ukraine stalemate continues, the sword of sanctions/tarriffs continues to hang over our heads. With the ME situation being what it is, GoI will not risk antagonizing Trump.

Imo, the 1st batch of 40 Su-57s will most likely be framed as a 'tit for tat' acquisition only after the PAF officially signs for J-35AE. That may still not be enough to fly under Orange's nose.

I guess GoI will try to gauge the US' current stance on CAATSA during Marco Rubio's upcoming visit to India later this month.

Since QUAD has been effectively eclipsed by AUKUS, exceptions will not come by w/o some kind of deal making. Btw, the interim trade deal still hangs in the balance.

Once we decide to go ahead, there is no power of this universe that can stop us. IAF gets what it wants. Pressure tactics don't work over them. Now after their blatant refusal of F-21, Uncle Sam wants IAF to procure a substantial number of F-15EX(@Lolwa, lol), only after that they would consider providing India with around 40-60 F-35s. That's the American game. But IAF has already given a go ahead for Su-57's acquisition and negotiations are still going. While CAATSA may or may not be a factor, our protracted contract negotiations are a real pain in the backside.

Anyways, looks like soon Russia-Ukraine ceasefire would happen and then we could announce Su-57 deal in public or just do everything covertly

 

[Chester Nimitz]

How confident are you with the Su 57 acquisition when IAF wanted Virupaksha in it and many Indian sub systems

Russians are backward in electronics and do not even have AESA in any jet except Su 57.

I am personally very skeptical of Su 57 which has become a joke since PAK FA , IAF left.

AL 51 engine is also what IAF preferred but are still testing .

Moreover, where is the deal for AL 41 for Super Sukhoi | No Uttam or Virupaksha induction either

Good points

Once we decide to go ahead, there is no power of this universe that can stop us. IAF gets what it wants. Pressure tactics don't work over them. Now after their blatant refusal of F-21, Uncle Sam wants IAF to procure a substantial number of F-15EX(@Lolwa, lol), only after that they would consider providing India with around 40-60 F-35s. That's the American game. But IAF has already given a go ahead for Su-57's acquisition and negotiations are still going. While CAATSA may or may not be a factor, our protracted contract negotiations are a real pain in the backside.

Anyways, looks like soon Russia-Ukraine ceasefire would happen and then we could announce Su-57 deal in public or just do everything covertly

 

[Rajput Lion]

How confident are you with the Su 57 acquisition when IAF wanted Virupaksha in it and many Indian sub systems

In the 2-seat variant which would be customized as per our needs. Single-seat would be accepted as it is because it's being procured as a "stop-gap" to counter J-35AE of PAF.

Russians are backward in electronics and do not even have AESA in any jet except Su 57.

I am personally very skeptical of Su 57 which has become a joke since PAK FA , IAF left.

AL 51 engine is also what IAF preferred but are still testing .

Moreover, where is the deal for AL 41 for Super Sukhoi | No Uttam or Virupaksha induction either

Time will answer all your questions mate! Till then, hold tight and watch this space

 

[Chester Nimitz]

In the 2-seat variant which would be customized as per our needs. Single-seat would be accepted as it is because it's being procured as a "stop-gap" to counter J-35AE of PAF.

Time will answer all your questions mate! Till then, hold tight and watch this space

I do not see IAF ordering any Su 57 until the 2 seater variant is made and offered.

That is another 5-8 years, given the war Russians are, infact they are getting hammered daily in their refineries by Ukraine drone

Perm was attacked and even 2 Su 57 damaged/ destroyed at Shagol airbase

 

[Speedster1]

Once we decide to go ahead, there is no power of this universe that can stop us. IAF gets what it wants. Pressure tactics don't work over them

There's no doubt we need an interim 5G jet given the threat environment. All I'm saying is GoI may wait for Trump to lift sanctions on Russia before signing up for Su-57MKI.

Lutnick, Navarro and others have already complained about lack of market access for US companies in India. Without a formal competition, it'd would be difficult for GoI to explain why the IAF prefers the Felon vs F-35.

After all, the Americans are open to selling it to us.

You might recall that the IN didn't publicly state it had downselected the Rafale-M over SH B3 for MRCBF a few years back. They simply said 'the ball was in GoIs court'.

Similarly, the IAF too might use diplomatic language, putting GoI in a tight spot. Ofc, I don't mean we should let the US dictate our mil hardware choices. But GoI will be more cautious dealing with Trump, given the overall ME situation.

 

[Speedster1]

Now after their blatant refusal of F-21, Uncle Sam wants IAF to procure a substantial number of F-15EX(@Lolwa, lol), only after that they would consider providing India with around 40-60 F-35s.

Boeing would have to remain content with Indian orders for more P-8I, Chinook and Apache for the foreseeable future.

I'd be surprised if Amb. Sergio Gor (who has had several meetings with top military brass) hasn't already been told that the IAF doesn't want any more heavy fighters.

 

[Lolwa]

IAF to procure a substantial number of F-15EX(@Lolwa, lol), only after that they would consider providing India with around 40-60 F-35s

All my predictions come from logic and realism. Members here mocked the idea of r-37m till the IAF got a reality check and ordered it. Considering how the U.S is behaving I don't want us to procure any American hardware but I won't be surprised if the f-35 finds a way to India although it's requirement is not necessary anymore. Su-57 fits us far better now. Once gandiv and astra Mk-3 come online f-35 won't be a requirement at all.
To get the f-35 online in India we need the the f-15EX, Growler NG and the E-7 Wedgetail. It's just too much investment for a capability that will only allows us to bomb sub -100 km of Chinese territory.

How confident are you with the Su 57 acquisition when IAF wanted Virupaksha in it and many Indian sub systems

There won't be Virupaksha in the su-57 at best we will get astra Mk-3, gandiv and Rudra series integration on it and that's it.

 

[Chester Nimitz]

All my predictions come from logic and realism. Members here mocked the idea of r-37m till the IAF got a reality check and ordered it. Considering how the U.S is behaving I don't want us to procure any American hardware but I won't be surprised if the f-35 finds a way to India although it's requirement is not necessary anymore. Su-57 fits us far better now. Once gandiv and astra Mk-3 come online f-35 won't be a requirement at all.
To get the f-35 online in India we need the the f-15EX, Growler NG and the E-7 Wedgetail. It's just too much investment for a capability that will only allows us to bomb sub -100 km of Chinese territory.

There won't be Virupaksha in the su-57 at best we will get astra Mk-3, gandiv and Rudra series integration on it and that's it.

The Byelka is GaA radar and IAF felt Virupaksha to be superior GaN

Moreover , these Astra and RudraM integration is part of Rafale deal also

F-35 doesn;t need Wedgetail and all that , you just need IAI OPAL to integrate all French and Russo stuff with F-35

 

[Lolwa]

acquisition and negotiations are still going. While CAATSA may or may not be a factor, our protracted contract negotiations are a real pain in the backside.

CAATSA is similar to the U.S permission to buy Russian and Iranian oil. It was followed as a goodwill gesture towards the American but considering Americans have abused that even if the sanctions are issued it won't matter. America has been made irrelevant in Asia by Iran. Their naval blockade is the last attempt to control trade in Asia which they will fail. This is all done deliberately by the American deep state for something bigger. Fact remains once the blockade ends it will be either Iran getting destroyed or America getting limited to the second island chain after which the entirety of Asia(including Europe) will be pickings for China.
Our priority within this timeframe is to create ICBM's and IRBM's targetting America & China both conventional and nuclear. We need to also develop cruise missiles and drones capable of targetting Diego Garcia and Chengdu air base with atleast 4000km target range.
Rest all can be developed with the Europeans and Russians and whatever other country we find ideal as partner.

 

[Lolwa]

I do not see IAF ordering any Su 57 until the 2 seater variant is made and offered.

Su-57 is a necessity now. This argument would be taken seriously 5 years ago, not today.

The Byelka is GaA radar and IAF felt Virupaksha to be superior GaN

Moreover , these Astra and RudraM integration is part of Rafale deal also

F-35 doesn;t need Wedgetail and all that , you just need IAI OPAL to integrate all French and Russo stuff with F-35

F-35 needs a lot of systems to function with the robustness we want but integrating them with cooperative targeting using Netra and Phalcons is something that I do not believe can be done using the IAI Opal