PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

babablacksheep said:
Su 57 while being a new design, Extensively reuses lot of manufacturing process and tooling of legacy flankers designs, significant part of its component are also borrowed from legacy flankers like the Hydraulic Actuators, which are finally being replaced in SU57M modification with EHA.

There's a reason when russian team visited hal, they said 50% of the existing production capacity at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for the Su-30MKI can be utilized for the manufacturing of Su-57.
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The Russians are just offering whatever is ready for export and are hoping India bites. When the better version comes out, they will offer that too. It's not a conspiracy.

We just shouldn't be foolish enough to go for it when it's still immature. Although the French are far more reliable, that's the danger with SCAF too. All such development programs come with huge risk. Just look at LCA Mk1A, even the F-35.

Su-57 is at TRL 8 for example, when we want TRL 9. That's why we are chasing after the guarantee of the Rafale F4+'s TRL 9. We should take a look at Su-57 in the 2030s, when 100+ are operational and the next batch of modernizations start showing up, especially the two-seat. Without the airframe and engine guarantee, it's all very risky to proceed.
 
randomradio said:
It's not a conspiracy.
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👍I know, never claimed such.



randomradio said:
We should take a look at Su-57 in the 2030s
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Su57M is near completion now, upgrade development wise, twin seater gone into prototyping phase.

negotiating now is not a bad time, hypothetically even if negotiations complete now it will take till ~2030 for first jets to arrive.
 
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babablacksheep said:
👍I know, never claimed such.




Su57M is near completion now, upgrade development wise, twin seater gone into prototyping phase.

negotiating now is not a bad time, hypothetically even if negotiations complete now it will take till ~2030 for first jets to arrive.
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My point is to push any decision to beyond 2030. If we discover holes in AMCA, we will need to plug it with an alternative, and we will have better, more mature choices then. At least 3 or 4 options, not just the Su-57.

It's dumb to go all-in on something while all blind. Even SCAF.
 
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Imo, Russia may be working on replacing any COTS components on Su-57 with local substitutes post sanctions.

That may be the reason why only a small number of jets have been delivered to RuAF so far.

I suspect the Euros will keep up the sanctions on Ru even after a truce w/Ukraine.

It remains to be seen if they'd be willing to give end user certificates for components to be used on any Su-57s ordered by India.
 
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Speedster1 said:
Imo, Russia may be working on replacing any COTS components on Su-57 with local substitutes post sanctions.

That may be the reason why only a small number of jets have been delivered to RuAF so far.

I suspect the Euros will keep up the sanctions on Ru even after a truce w/Ukraine.

It remains to be seen if they'd be willing to give end user certificates for components to be used on any Su-57s ordered by India.
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VVS has stopped accepting SU57 until M variant with Al51 is delivered, hence low to nil delivery
 
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babablacksheep said:
Acc. To @Rajput Lion we are not going all in, but initially looking to buy ~2squad worth of Su57, before deciding course.
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I have already said "what is going behind the doors". Rest, time will prove whether I'm right or wrong. Plus even the initial jets could be 40 or even 80;) . Just wait for sometime. And even "about going all in". Nope, even with 100 or 140 locally manufactured jets, our focus remains on AMCA MK2 and our domestic industry. It's only in 'aatmanirbharta' that we're going all-in ONLY. Nothing more, nothing less:)
 
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Ashwin said:
I asked you to back up your claim with sources, but your response is that I am hurting the feelings of some people.

Sir, are you a white lib chick?
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Not to be rude but let me tell you the basics of debating 101 which you failed to understand, its the job of the one who make the ridiculous claims to prove it to others, not the other way around. Its like if I claim the earth is flat or giant reptiles control the world, its my job to prove it so, not others job to disprove it.
You were the first to claim
The Su-57 builds on the design philosophy of the Su-27/35 family
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So its your job to prove this claim, not others to disprove it.
then back them up with primary sources.
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Also since you don't care about educated opinions or statements and only care about primary sources, please define such sources and prove your claim using so.
your response is that I am hurting the feelings of some people.
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Please try to read and understand properly before doing a poor attempt of being sassy, I specifically said, "disrespectful to engineering " not engineers, what you basically said is that the toyota supra and prius or fortuner have the same design philosophy.
 
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babablacksheep said:
Acc. To @Rajput Lion we are not going all in, but initially looking to buy ~2squad worth of Su57, before deciding course.
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Defense secy confirmed nothing is happening on the 5th gen import front today.

The IAF has confirmed multiple times that their current plan remains LCA, Rafale, and AMCA only. We can add SCAF for now too. Let's see how things change after the Rafale deal is signed. It's only a year's wait.
Speedster1 said:
Imo, Russia may be working on replacing any COTS components on Su-57 with local substitutes post sanctions.

That may be the reason why only a small number of jets have been delivered to RuAF so far.

I suspect the Euros will keep up the sanctions on Ru even after a truce w/Ukraine.

It remains to be seen if they'd be willing to give end user certificates for components to be used on any Su-57s ordered by India.
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It's much more likely that they deprioritized next gen stuff in exchange for inducting proven tech at a faster rate due to the current war.
 
batman said:
Not to be rude but let me tell you the basics of debating 101 which you failed to understand, its the job of the one who make the ridiculous claims to prove it to others, not the other way around. Its like if I claim the earth is flat or giant reptiles control the world, its my job to prove it so, not others job to disprove it.
You were the first to claim

So its your job to prove this claim, not others to disprove it.

Also since you don't care about educated opinions or statements and only care about primary sources, please define such sources and prove your claim using so.

Please try to read and understand properly before doing a poor attempt of being sassy, I specifically said, "disrespectful to engineering " not engineers, what you basically said is that the toyota supra and prius or fortuner have the same design philosophy.
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The statement was made by Speedster1 on post #329222. You countered without any reference. I was pointing that out.

No need to get emotional and put it on the entire engineering community. They are fine with calling some russian jet mid, i asked.
 
babablacksheep said:
Def sec. Also said many times informal discussions are ongoing with both russia and us.
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Regarding F-35? There is nothing going on anywhere. Def Sec won't come out in public and reveal all our future plans. Since last year, only discussion that is going on regarding our "stop-gap" 5th gen fighter is ONLY with Russia/UAC. In fact, the Lockheed Martin team, that was set to arrive last year to make a "formal" proposal for F-35, cancelled thier visit. US already knows that we have made our decision. Once GOI reveals it officially to the public, then how they will react, is yet to be seen!

Two things are clear though, Modi won't back down and Su-57MKIs are going to arrive and get locally produced in huge numbers(~circa 200) right upto 2040. Both IAF & GOI now fully understand the gravity of PLAAF possessing close to 700-800 J-20s and PLAN possessing close to 200 J-35s by the end of this decade. By 2040 they will have hundreds of J-36s & J-50s too. We need Su-57 as Rafale won't cut it anymore. Heck it got tracked and shot at during our last year's Ops. So much so for its "active stealth". Rafale is procured as our next backbone while Su-57MKI will be our next "tip of the spear".
 
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Rajput Lion said:
We need Su-57 as Rafale won't cut it anymore. Heck it got tracked and shot at during our last year's Ops. So much so for its "active stealth". Rafale is procured as our next backbone while Su-57MKI will be our next "tip of the spear"
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It is disappointing that the GoI has not invested in its propulsion and 4.5th gen capability as much as it needed to. There are many lessons that India could have learnt from wars across the globe. Yet, much has been cast aside. There are still lengthy procedures and processes that are being followed as so much changes in the neighbourhood. Su-57 will be a 5- gen FA from what I can tell looking at all the OSINT data. If the GoI goes with it, it will be the new and better Su-30 MKI in the inventory of IAF...that's pretty much it.
 
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Rajput Lion said:
Regarding F-35? There is nothing going on anywhere. Def Sec won't come out in public and reveal all our future plans. Since last year, only discussion that is going on regarding our "stop-gap" 5th gen fighter is ONLY with Russia/UAC. In fact, the Lockheed Martin team, that was set to arrive last year to make a "formal" proposal for F-35, cancelled thier visit. US already knows that we have made our decision. Once GOI reveals it officially to the public, then how they will react, is yet to be seen!

Two things are clear though, Modi won't back down and Su-57MKIs are going to arrive and get locally produced in huge numbers(~circa 200) right upto 2040. Both IAF & GOI now fully understand the gravity of PLAAF possessing close to 700-800 J-20s and PLAN possessing close to 200 J-35s by the end of this decade. By 2040 they will have hundreds of J-36s & J-50s too. We need Su-57 as Rafale won't cut it anymore. Heck it got tracked and shot at during our last year's Ops. So much so for its "active stealth". Rafale is procured as our next backbone while Su-57MKI will be our next "tip of the spear".
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If we are buying large number of Su57, then lot of Su30 mki will retire.
We should be porting UPG program to the Mki zation of Su57 program.
Maybe only 83 Su 30 mki will get upgraded as interim development.
 
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Shan said:
It is disappointing that the GoI has not invested in its propulsion and 4.5th gen capability as much as it needed to.
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It's way more than just disappointing that we are going for 114 Rafales after it was selected as MRFA winner way back in 2012. Nothing can explain this delay except that GOI thought LCA MK2 and AMCA would be ready by 2025.

Shan said:
There are many lessons that India could have learnt from wars across the globe. Yet, much has been cast aside. There are still lengthy procedures and processes that are being followed as so much changes in the neighbourhood.
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I concur👍
Shan said:
Su-57 will be a 5- gen FA from what I can tell looking at all the OSINT data. If the GoI goes with it, it will be the new and better Su-30 MKI in the inventory of IAF...that's pretty much it.
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If you read my posts closely, I never mention Su-57E or Su-57EKI, it's always Su-57MKI. Notice the highlighted "M" here. IAF ain't going for any half-baked 5th gen fighter. Our version would be more stealthy from all aspects than what the VVS is operating in form of Su-57S. Just wait for sometime and things would become more clear.

PS: Even the current Su-57S is way more stealthy and deadly than MKI. Any comparison is just sheer Western propaganda.
 
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