PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

As per the UAC team that visited HAL Nashik plant, thanks to 50% tooling already compatible with Su-57 local production, an assembly line could start much earlier than anticipated and overall cost also shall be less.

Anyways, now both GOI and Russia are in final stages of negotiation and very soon it shall be revealed;)
 
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As per the UAC team that visited HAL Nashik plant, thanks to 50% tooling already compatible with Su-57 local production, an assembly line could start much earlier than anticipated and overall cost also shall be less.

Anyways, now both GOI and Russia are in final stages of negotiation and very soon it shall be revealed;)
These frauds lock India in and then drop the bombshell.

We need HAL to certify capability level
 
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I wouldn't be very confident of a consortium assembling a 5th Gen FA minus HAL . And if HAL is a part of this consortium what would the role of the other partners in it ?
HAL is reportedly going it alone. The other consortia include top industrial houses like L&T, Tata and Godrej, all of which are involved in the Mk1A prog as T2/3 suppliers.
With AMCA, they will graduate to airframe assembly, systems integration and check out.

If MoD / GoI feel there's such a pressing need to develop the pvt sector in competition to HAL they can start out with the aforementioned formula in the LCA Mk-2 program.
Discussions on a Mk2 line in the pvt sector are ongoing.

Didn't read anywhere the IAF is prioritising deliveries over more IC , TBH. In any case Dassault order book is full up until 2030 if not a couple of years beyond the said date.
The IAFs proposal for 114 Rafale had an IC component of just 10%. The MoD is pushing for 60%-70% which will push up costs. I suspect MoD is just playing for time. They'd ideally want Mk2 to fill the bulk of the MRFA requirement.

Both negotiations for Su-57 & Rafales will take a lot of time. I'd venture somewhere close to the 2029 general elections to sign agreements if both parties are keen to close the deal . Otherwise we're past masters at stretching timelines.
The cost will be a major factor. Recall how the MoD decided against fitting Uttam on the Rafale-Ms after DA warned of a steep increase in costs + delivery delays. Likewise, Su-57 too will likely come in the vanilla version to keep costs down. The Su-57 has an integrated radar with multiple apertures distributed around the airframe. Much more complicated to replace, imo.

In any case the MKI zation will be a long drawn out affair . Both these acquisition militate against quick induction. We're basically preparing to fight in the the late 2030s . That's the sum total of my assumption of our approach.
Agree.

The Ghatak is expected to come only in the mid 30s. Don't think that can be rushed. As regards the CATS Warrior , IAF isn't involved in the development. It's purely HAL's baby much like the HTSE & HTFE projects
The Swift variant could concievably make it into service as a LO strike bird. The others will only show up post 2030.
 
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As per the UAC team that visited HAL Nashik plant, thanks to 50% tooling already compatible with Su-57 local production, an assembly line could start much earlier than anticipated and overall cost also shall be less.

Anyways, now both GOI and Russia are in final stages of negotiation and very soon it shall be revealed;)
My stand on this is well known. It's not coming by 2030. Even if we get a squadron or 2 thru imports , assimilation with our various systems , formulating tactics etc would take at least another 5 years post induction. That's the bottom-line.

Moreover , supply issues given the war in Ukraine could prove to be a real bottle neck. MKI zation if any adds to the timelines.
 
Ah!! I would have just put my money on breaking Tejas development away from HAL monopoly and distribute it to consortia in highest bid scenario.
Develop Mk2. Even not sell, then become DcPP of HAL.

Expand Tejas lines, create supply chain quick. Use private sectors ability to bypass govt gridlock. And produce them in big numbers. Like a national mission.

In doing that, mandate in contract.. that the pvt partners ( could be more than one) needs to divert funds to R&D in house, build facilities etc so they can utilise TEJAS learning for AMCA.

So, Mk1A gets fielded in big numbers by 2030. Mk2 in substantial number by 2035 and LSP( not fully) of AMCA by 2035 too.

In meanwhile.. invest huge (oney saved from MRFA, MMRCA) in building AD network ( Sudharshan Chakra pro) , secure data link , quantum communication, QKD, A single meta network encompassing all the networks of tri forces and their sub networks. Will help whole theaterisation too. That's a must. Then comes AWACS, ISTAR, Radars (semicon industry trajectory will have impact on our radar development too) , sensors, Jammers, Secure comms, mass induction of FICVs, ICVs, Transport vehicles, ATAGS, Artillery etc. I believe that's a problem hidden in plain sight. I don't see combat vehicles getting inducted the way they should be, given the civilian sector is pretty mature already.

For Navy, the GOIs shipbuilding plan is long time coming which will have indirect impact on navy's expansion plan. Andaman development can be sped up, Sub base was good surprise, We see increase in ships being made and inducted domestically. So, the trajectory is correct as far as I can see.

Leaves IAFs offensive capability... Which should be built around quantity of Tejas. Expedite a cheaper version of GHATAK whose sole role will be a sucide mission for providing guidance to SOWs, BVRAAMs fired from Tejas deep inside territory or away from enemy detection range.

Ghatak is supposed to be stealthy. So, strip out unnecessary things like offensive capability. See if it can be further finetuned for stealth, detection and jam resistant. It could be the cheaper VLO going into risky airspace on lookout for enemy. Detect, relay fire code, and link with Gandiva to guide it to enemies. A cheaper version( compared to full fledged 5th Gen FA) might even enable eastern theatre to deploy them in larger number across IB.

Correct me if I am wrong or missing any detail which hinders this approach.


As for theaterisation , Forces might be dilly dallying cause with theaterisation, monopoly over procurement decisions will be gone and since the roles be bifurcated b/w CDS and Generals.. CDS office under MoD is likely to bring cohesion in planning including procurement. Taking away many of perks that old bloc might have.

Ofcourse a new bloc will form in theaterisation too, with time. But that's not the old guards concern. Meanwhile, veterans might be opposed to the idea because of nostalgia and the fact that change is uncomfortable. The whole culture starting from recruitment, NDA , studies, training will be changed. Not limited to IAF.


The complex web of powerplay inside remains away from public eyes. I won't doubt if there are some "agents" at lower level, trying to sow some idea in a superior or the connection with congress ecosystem which is very likely a part of the old guard too.


Just an idle mans thought. Take it with a pinch of pepper if you must.
 
HAL is reportedly going it alone. The other consortia include top industrial houses like L&T, Tata and Godrej, all of which are involved in the Mk1A prog as T2/3 suppliers.
With AMCA, they will graduate to airframe assembly, systems integration and check out.


Discussions on a Mk2 line in the pvt sector are ongoing.
Let's see what comes out of the evaluation process.
The IAFs proposal for 114 Rafale had an IC component of just 10%. The MoD is pushing for 60%-70% which will push up costs. I suspect MoD is just playing for time. They'd ideally want Mk2 to fill the bulk of the MRFA requirement.
At this stage I really don't know what options does the IAF have ? None of their proposed requirements will materialize in time for our war with China .

Nor is the Super Sukhoi upgrade materialising in reasonable time . 8+8 years to develop & certify systems plus upgrade of only 80 nos MKI is ridiculous. They might as well develop the AHCA .
The cost will be a major factor. Recall how the MoD decided against fitting Uttam on the Rafale-Ms after DA warned of a steep increase in costs + delivery delays.
Apart from costs time was also a huge factor as Dassault would have to recalibrate all their systems especially SPECTRA.
Likewise, Su-57 too will likely come in the vanilla version to keep costs down. The Su-57 has an integrated radar with multiple apertures distributed around the airframe. Much more complicated to replace, imo.
I don't think we'd be replacing much in the Su-57 assuming what we're getting in the export version fits our requirements. Objective as of now is two fold , get our armaments synchronised with their systems & get their systems synchronised with our ADS & other assorted grids.

Also depends on the size of the order. The above holds good for 2-3 squadrons we import which IMO is what we'd be doing & is the right way to go about it . If we're going for local mfg then the qtys would be large & that's an entirely different ball game.

At that point we're looking at an MKI type deal unless of course we're going about local mfg with smaller qtys vide SDK & CDK like we've done all this while for FAs with the Russians.

The Swift variant could concievably make it into service as a LO strike bird. The others will only show up post 2030.
Doubt if the SWIFT makes that much of a difference or can even be classified as a UCAV /CCA . It's more of an ISR platform . Can be repurposed to become an LM .
 
Buying this junk will be the biggest disaster ever......... But import Bahadur IQ is in single digit so nothing can be done...... next time when this new over hyped non stealth game changer go up in smoke...... Our Import Bahadur chief can always cook up new stories for feel good purpose.
 
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So the Russians just unveiled Su-57E variant with flat nozzles and AL-51F engines, lol. That's why I said in the MKI thread that trusting people like George N was a follly. He said that Russians won't export AL-51 to India but 177S and now the Russians are promoting Su-57E with AL-51 to the Arabs/whole world.

I think 177S for MKI and AL-51F1 for Su-57I/MKI makes perfect sense for India.
 
Engine intakes arent as exposed as Flankers as there is slight vertical S-shape to the intakes. With integrated radar blockers, they aren't any problem for stealth. The current 117 engine has slighlty higher IR signature from both front & rear but AL-51F likely addresses that.
Radar blockers, which have negligible effect on reducing RCS by the way are necessary due to inherit design flaw of SU 57........ it never emphasized stealth in first place.... Stealth is of utmost importance for any future fighter jet & sorry to say SU 57 failed miserably in that front..... Clean RCS is still higher than new F 18 running clean, which is kinda embarrassing for something that’s supposed to be “next gen.”

AMCA will run circle around this half baked tin can in real combat where stealth matters........... Can't say about airshows with SU 57 cigma maneuvering though...... Sukhoi is a clean winner there for sure lol
 
Radar blockers, which have negligible effect on reducing RCS by the way are necessary due to inherit design flaw of SU 57........ it never emphasized stealth in first place.... Stealth is of utmost importance for any future fighter jet & sorry to say SU 57 failed miserably in that front..... Clean RCS is still higher than new F 18 running clean, which is kinda embarrassing for something that’s supposed to be “next gen.”

AMCA will run circle around this half baked tin can in real combat where stealth matters........... Can't say about airshows with SU 57 cigma maneuvering though...... Sukhoi is a clean winner there for sure lol
Clean frontal RCS being 0.1m2 is just hearsay. HAL is submitting reports for Su-57I domestic production with having production standards target of sub 0.01m2 stealth profile(for Indianized Su-57).

Can't say too much now but you all naysayers will be pleasantly surprised when full details finally come out in the public. Just wait till then;)
 
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So just like AL-41 program was split into two different turbofans, 117(AL-41F1) for Su-57S and 117S(AL-41F1-S) for Su-35, they have split their 5th gen engine aka Item 177 into two parts(177 for Su-57 and 177S for Flankers):


1000033539.jpg

So GeorgeN was absolutely incorrect and it is 177 that is being offered for Su-57I and not 177S.
 
So just like AL-41 program was split into two different turbofans, 117(AL-41F1) for Su-57S and 117S(AL-41F1-S) for Su-35, they have split their 5th gen engine aka Item 177 into two parts(177 for Su-57 and 177S for Flankers):


View attachment 47884
A good move would be to invest in an upgrade package for MKI that includes the 177S. I do not know if it would feasible though due to the sheer no. of sanctions that the Russian Federation is under.
 
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A good move would be to invest in an upgrade package for MKI that includes the 177S. I do not know if it would feasible though due to the sheer no. of sanctions that the Russian Federation is under.
Since the inlet diameter is same as that of MKI(905mm), what if IAF chooses 177 engine itself for both MKI UPG. and Su-57I🤔. With 108KN dry and 158KN wet thrust, MKI UPG. would match even F-22 Raptor in kinematics:)