PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

randomradio

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Why do you think I am keeping a very close tab on this engine? Plus what Safran wants to develop now for their future fighter is still behind this engine. However I do not know if Russians will clear it for export just as an engine. They will tie up Su-57 with this engine.

In terms of temperature, apparently SAFRAN plans to achieve the same as the Russians, about 2100K, but the Russian engine will get IOC in 2025, while SAFRAN's prototype for test aircraft will come out only after 2025. The French engine will naturally have better quality, and design, but a post 2030-35 IOC is too far away. Both are expected to be variable cycle designs.

Also, yeah, they won't export the engine without a PAK FA deal. And it has to be a large deal, which is the main problem. Even then, there's no guarantee they will allow its export for MSA because the Russians are planning to develop a smaller single-engine aircraft with the AL-51 under Mig. Another big problem is CAATSA. A Russian engine on MSA will close many markets because of CAATSA initially, so the aircraft has to be made to carry all possible engines of that class if it has to be an export success in the single engine category.

The way I see it, I'm very pessimistic about any one of these high thrust engines becoming available for MSA. You may have to chase after a twin-engine design for now. But the available technical specs of the AL-51 is the highest right now, and no one compares with it. I remember reading an article a few years ago, where a Saturn executive claimed Russia will take the lead in engine technology with an operational AL-51, looks like it's coming true.
 

vstol Jockey

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In terms of temperature, apparently SAFRAN plans to achieve the same as the Russians, about 2100K, but the Russian engine will get IOC in 2025, while SAFRAN's prototype for test aircraft will come out only after 2025. The French engine will naturally have better quality, and design, but a post 2030-35 IOC is too far away. Both are expected to be variable cycle designs.

Also, yeah, they won't export the engine without a PAK FA deal. And it has to be a large deal, which is the main problem. Even then, there's no guarantee they will allow its export for MSA because the Russians are planning to develop a smaller single-engine aircraft with the AL-51 under Mig. Another big problem is CAATSA. A Russian engine on MSA will close many markets because of CAATSA initially, so the aircraft has to be made to carry all possible engines of that class if it has to be an export success in the single engine category.

The way I see it, I'm very pessimistic about any one of these high thrust engines becoming available for MSA. You may have to chase after a twin-engine design for now. But the available technical specs of the AL-51 is the highest right now, and no one compares with it. I remember reading an article a few years ago, where a Saturn executive claimed Russia will take the lead in engine technology with an operational AL-51, looks like it's coming true.
We will have SU-57 and that will allow us to have domestic production of this engine. Su-57 is a relaxed stealth aircraft. It does not believe in stealth as stated by US and other nations. It follows what I have always stated, "hide only till the point from where you can reach your fire solution, till than use part stealth and part jamming".
MSA is not so much about stealth as it is about kinematics and survivability using aerodynamics. My thinking and ideas have been proven in 27/02/19 air battle.
 

randomradio

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My gut feeling is that by 2025-26 timeline, the PAKFA would've matured a great deal and we'd definitely be taking a second look at it. You can't write it off. As it is by the mid 20's Chinese 5th G FA will be deployed in significant numbers and while it's capabilities are moot, we certainly should err on the side of caution and not try to underestimate the threat they pose. Plus there's the question of the AMCA arriving on time which in any case is slated to be in the mid 2030's. Which ever way you look at it, we'd need a 5th gen FA by the mid to late 2020's and we've no choice but to get in bed with the Russians.

AMCA's inadequate internal weapons bay (without side bays) will ensure PAK FAs are bought, at least in small numbers, like M2000, Rafale or Mig-29, if not local production.
IndoPacific News (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
#Algeria will become the first country to buy the export version of #Russia’s Su-57E stealth fighter. Contract already signed. Delivery by 2025. Uses the SU-35 engines & radar

Algeria will buy:

14 Su-57E fighter jets
14 Su-34 fighter-bombers
14 Su-35 multi-role fighters IndoPacific News on Twitter ( )

Rumours right now.
 

randomradio

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We will have SU-57 and that will allow us to have domestic production of this engine. Su-57 is a relaxed stealth aircraft. It does not believe in stealth as stated by US and other nations. It follows what I have always stated, "hide only till the point from where you can reach your fire solution, till than use part stealth and part jamming".
MSA is not so much about stealth as it is about kinematics and survivability using aerodynamics. My thinking and ideas have been proven in 27/02/19 air battle.

Have you considered switching to the earlier LSA design? With 2 Astras or 2 500Kg bombs in the main bay and 2 Astras + 2 Asraams in the side bays, it already fulfills MMRCA requirements. And the EJ2x0 is easily available. The AMCA's definitive engine can also become an option later on.
 

vstol Jockey

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Have you considered switching to the earlier LSA design? With 2 Astras or 2 500Kg bombs in the main bay and 2 Astras + 2 Asraams in the side bays, it already fulfills MMRCA requirements. And the EJ2x0 is easily available. The AMCA's definitive engine can also become an option later on.
LSA design has been dumped completely. MSA offers much higher duel fraction, above 0.4.
 
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randomradio

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LSA design has been dumped completely. MSA offers much higher duel fraction, above 0.4.

You said that once before, that's why I brought it up. What other options do you have if the only available engine for MSA is 117S?

As for LSA's fuel fraction, all you need is to beat the MWF, which is not difficult considering it has such a low fuel fraction already.
 

vstol Jockey

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You said that once before, that's why I brought it up. What other options do you have if the only available engine for MSA is 117S?

As for LSA's fuel fraction, all you need is to beat the MWF, which is not difficult considering it has such a low fuel fraction already.
The problem in dealing with Indian Armed forces are huge. They want a girl who looks like Katrina, behaves like silk smitha and acts like Smita Patil. OR any foreign actress will do even if useless in all departments.
The engine choices are XF9, AL-41F1 of Pak Fa and I-30 as and when its available. I also have AL-41F1S as an option. LSA is restricted to 18 tons MTOW due to the thrust of EJ230. I am calculating performance for my design with a 8% reduction in static thrust of the engine to cater for Indian conditions.
 
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randomradio

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The problem in dealing with Indian Armed forces are huge. They want a girl who looks like Katrina, behaves like silk smitha and acts like Smita Patil. OR any foreign actress will do even if useless in all departments.
The engine choices are XF9, AL-41F1 of Pak Fa and I-30 as and when its available. I also have AL-41F1S as an option. LSA is restricted to 18 tons MTOW due to the thrust of EJ230. I am calculating performance for my design with a 8% reduction in static thrust of the engine to cater for Indian conditions.

If MSA is good enough with 117 and 117S, then it should work out. It helps if there's some commonality with the future upgraded MKI fleet.
 

vstol Jockey

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If MSA is good enough with 117 and 117S, then it should work out. It helps if there's some commonality with the future upgraded MKI fleet.
Yes. The very first design of LSA was based on Gnat and was a dedicated interceptor with secondary ground attack role like Mig-21 Bison and it could carry only four BVRAAMs internally and two on wingtips. It was supposed to carry bombs etc on external pylons and only AAMs internally. It was based on M88 engine. My bro-in-law is a retd Gp. Capt. from IAF and he told me that without internal bays to carry bombs, IAF will not even look at it. So it evolved to be more of a multirole design and from there it became MSA.
 

randomradio

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Yes. The very first design of LSA was based on Gnat and was a dedicated interceptor with secondary ground attack role like Mig-21 Bison and it could carry only four BVRAAMs internally and two on wingtips. It was supposed to carry bombs etc on external pylons and only AAMs internally. It was based on M88 engine. My bro-in-law is a retd Gp. Capt. from IAF and he told me that without internal bays to carry bombs, IAF will not even look at it. So it evolved to be more of a multirole design and from there it became MSA.

Yep, I remember that. You had to increase its weight from 2.5T to 6T after that. And now I suppose it's gone up to 8-9T now.
 

vstol Jockey

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Yeah, that's an insane amount of fuel. Even this aircraft should be able to circle around Sumatra on internal fuel and AL-51.
The internal loadout of the adesign exceeds the weapn loadout requirements laid down by IAF in its RFI for SE MMRCA. In anti-ship role, it can carry two ASMs+4xBVRAAMs internally and 2xWVRAAMs on wingtips. I have place to fit all six AAMs internally, But I want to keep BVRAAMs on wingtips for snap shoot ability and to use them as additional sensors. I am very much convinced that the aircombat between 5th gen aircraft will have in much more compact airspace and more than BVRs, the WVR AAMs will make the difference. MICA is one sach exceptional missile for 5th gen aircombat.
 

randomradio

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The internal loadout of the adesign exceeds the weapn loadout requirements laid down by IAF in its RFI for SE MMRCA. In anti-ship role, it can carry two ASMs+4xBVRAAMs internally and 2xWVRAAMs on wingtips.

Yeah, it's impressive that the MSA's payload almost matches that of the PAK FA in this role, and the PAK FA weighs twice as much. And the flexibility of the MSA to mix and match AAMs is even greater.

With just the internal payload, it matches MMRCA specs anyway.

I have place to fit all six AAMs internally, But I want to keep BVRAAMs on wingtips for snap shoot ability and to use them as additional sensors. I am very much convinced that the aircombat between 5th gen aircraft will have in much more compact airspace and more than BVRs, the WVR AAMs will make the difference. MICA is one sach exceptional missile for 5th gen aircombat.

That's okay though. Even if it turns out you are wrong, the IAF can simply not put AAMs on the wingtips. You are giving them the option for both regardless.

What do you think about the upcoming Astra IR?
 

screambowl

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I would like Astra to have dual seekers, RF+IR and it can be done very easily. I have even worked out the software logic to be used with dual seekers. Please see it only about logic and not the software itself.

It can be done but then machine will be short of required battery. Plus the signal processing unit needs to be redesigned.
 

vstol Jockey

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It can be done but then machine will be short of required battery. Plus the signal processing unit needs to be redesigned.
That is what I meant. The design will remain same and may become either a bit fat or longer. But with negligible impact on performance. Trust me what i have in mind is really out of this world. No one has thought something like that.
 

randomradio

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I would like Astra to have dual seekers, RF+IR and it can be done very easily. I have even worked out the software logic to be used with dual seekers. Please see it only about logic and not the software itself.

That would be the best. In terms of design, there's the dolphin nose of the American/Israeli Stunner. And the Koreans are also working on dual seekers for the K-SAAM SRSAM, but I've not seen the design for it.
 

vstol Jockey

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That would be the best. In terms of design, there's the dolphin nose of the American/Israeli Stunner. And the Koreans are also working on dual seekers for the K-SAAM SRSAM, but I've not seen the design for it.
My desihn has nearly no design change to Astra. I will love to call it either Ekadhwani or AdiAstra based on my Ishtdev AdiDev Mahadev. This can actually have the capabilities of the that Ekadhwani astra used by Karn in Mahabhartha war to kill Ghatotcach.
 

randomradio

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My desihn has nearly no design change to Astra. I will love to call it either Ekadhwani or AdiAstra based on my Ishtdev AdiDev Mahadev. This can actually have the capabilities of the that Ekadhwani astra used by Karn in Mahabhartha war to kill Ghatotcach.

Be careful, or else some people will say we invented dual seeker missiles back during the Mahabharata. :ROFLMAO: