Norwegian Armed Forces

Ymir

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How does this ROVs work?

MineSniper MK III is an ROV, meaning it's hardlined to a mothership and reliant on that ship's sensors and personnel for guidance and delivery. It has onboard its own cameras and a sonar and LED lights for communication should its hardline be severed, but it's primarily dependent on its mothership.

Once a mine is located by a minesweeper, hunter or destroyer, the ship is positioned to allow it a constant view of the offending object via sonar.



A MineSniper ROV is fitted with an explosive charge and launched to investigate.



If the contact is positive, the MineSniper is positioned to allow its shaped charge to blast through a mine's shell and safely render it inert.



The whole process is 5x less time consuming then previous counter-mining operations such as by-hand demining.



MineSniper can be used as an anti-submarine weapon too, against thin hulled coastal submarines like Russia operates.
 
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GuardianRED

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MineSniper MK III is an ROV, meaning it's hardlined to a mothership and reliant on that ship's sensors and personnel for guidance and delivery. It has onboard its own cameras and a sonar and LED lights for communication should its hardline be severed, but it's primarily dependent on its mothership.

Once a mine is located by a minesweeper, hunter or destroyer, the ship is positioned to allow it a constant view of the offending object via sonar.



A MineSniper ROV is fitted with an explosive charge and launched to investigate.



If the contact is positive, the MineSniper is positioned to allow its shaped charge to blast through a mine's shell and safely render it inert.



The whole process is 5x less time consuming then previous counter-mining operations such as by-hand demining.



MineSniper can be used as an anti-submarine weapon too, against thin hulled coastal submarines like Russia operates.
Meaning that this ROV is expendable correct? isn't it simpler and cheaper - that once located - just drop depth chargers? like for eg RBU-6000?
 

Ymir

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Mar 22, 2020
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isn't it simpler and cheaper - that once located - just drop depth chargers? like for eg RBU-6000?

Perhaps, we used to use Terne mortars to detonate unexploded charges... but what happens if they don't explode either:unsure:? Now I have 2 UXOs I need to dispose of.



Minesniper is expendable, cheap and if needed, reusable if the contact is negative giving it more flexibility then something like RBU-6000, which western nations have largely done away with.
 
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suryakiran

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MineSniper can be used as an anti-submarine weapon too, against thin hulled coastal submarines like Russia operates.

Had a few queries.

1. Do ocean going submarines need to be nuclear powered? Is it to do with only range?
2. When you say thin hulled, is it only with Russian subs or do all the coastal subs have thinner hulls? And if its only Russian, why would that be? Assumption would be with thicker hulls, you get better quieting? I am just guessing here.
3. In an UASV would it not make sense for them to just 'bottom out' and passively monitor their surrounding, activating when they have a hostile contact and not giving any response time? This could be a potential scenario. Of course, this would need a databank pre loaded in to the UASV.
 

Ymir

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2. When you say thin hulled, is it only with Russian subs or do all the coastal subs have thinner hulls? And if its only Russian, why would that be?

Russia makes small special missions submarines, some have treads like a tank and crawl on the sea floor, others host special forces, all are rather small but some can dive well over 200 meters.

This is a British Tramrod model used for underwater mining. Russia has similar ones for inserting special forces, cable tapping and other undersea activities. Tracks from such craft have been found in Norwegian and Swedish waters, including recently.

Capture.PNG


As for coastal submarines, they're all designed to patrol shallow waters so their hulls, across all nations, are thin and light. Double hulled submarines are largely only used by Russia.

1. Do ocean going submarines need to be nuclear powered?

Not at all. Historically DE powered submarines could cover distances of upwards of 15000 km. The German Type IX could stay on station for days, if not weeks. They plagued Atlantic convoys for years during WWII.



India's DE powered Kilo class submarines have an at-sea duration of between 40-50 days depending on their stores.

Modern AIP designs are able to maintain an at sea duration of upwards of 12 weeks at a time on strictly without needing to refuel or rearm - 3 months endurance. They're limited by their smaller size though, making endurance the main reason why nuclear powered boats are preferred for at sea patrols. That's by design. They tend to be smaller as AIP designs lose range as they gain speed where as nuclear boats do not. AIP endurance maximized when the boat is at rest. For instance a Type 214 can travel 2300km at 4 knots, but when the speed is increased by double to 8 knots range endurance drops to a paltry 400km. A nuclear boat of the same size would have a range limited by food supplies and a speed limited by hull design.



An American Virginia class submarine needs to have its reactor serviced once per the life of the boat and take on new provisions once every six months. Large nuclear boats need to be maintained less and have more room for critical supplies. Nuclear power can be used to generate clean drinking water.



There's no reason the same could be done with an AIP design though. It'd be more complex and need to be larger to accommodate for an increase in submarine size, most AIP designs are rather small compared to nuclear boats, but it's definitely doable. Still as speed increases endurance would drop. That's the inherent problem with AIP design until more efficient batteries come online that can store and distribute power more efficiently.

Russian submarines tend to have a crew about half of what western submarines do because they automate much of the submarine's processes, partly due to a lack of training and partly due to cost, but the result is high theoretical endurance outside of maintenance periods (though they have historically spent less time at sea owing to a lack of qualified submariners, unlike the American Gold Crew, Blue Crew concept).

A Russian Yasen class submarine has a crew compliment of 65 sailors. An American Virginia has 135. This results, theoretically, into greater endurance as the crew can be supplied with more food and stores, given the extra space and lower requirement for daily usage among the crew.



It doesn't always work out that way. Training, crew competence, maintenance and logistical support all play an equal amount when it comes to submarine endurance.

On the flip side the American NR-1, the world's smallest nuclear submarine, could stay at sea for a maximum of 330 days, but 16 was more realistic for a full crew. The size and handling made it notorious for making its crew sick.



3. In an UASV would it not make sense for them to just 'bottom out' and passively monitor their surrounding, activating when they have a hostile contact and not giving any response time? This could be a potential scenario. Of course, this would need a databank pre loaded in to the UASV.

That concept is already in use with CAPTOR-type mines which are a torpedo - essentially an ROV in their own right - being housed in a capsule moored the sea floor. When something passes overhead that's registered as hostile the torpedo is released and homes in on the target. This is an American MK60 CAPTOR. They house a MK46 torpedo



China and Russia use rocket-assisted variants. This is a Chinese EM52 fast-rising rocket mine. It's unguided, but works on the same principle.



I don't see why the concept couldn't be used with an ROV. ROVs are basically more intelligent torpedoes.
 

Ashwin

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A Russian Yasen class submarine has a crew compliment of 65 sailors. An American Virginia has 135.
Why do USN ships/subs comparatively have a higher crew complement compared to even western counterparts? Is it doctrinal?
 

Ymir

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Why do USN ships/subs comparatively have a higher crew complement compared to even western counterparts? Is it doctrinal?

American subs are even more cramped then you'd think. Not only do they have their own crews, but they often have contractors onboard too. As for why they're crews are so large comparitively, it's largely because the Americans have more resources to allocate to crew training and size, which creates necessary redudnancies and avoids having to cross-train on too many aspects of a submarine's operation.

Russian subs are heavily automated because they have traditionally lacked the necessary crew training, experience or infrastructure. And with a limited naval budget, cutting crew cost and replacing them with computers was a logical step. The downside of that is that Russian crews were far less experienced then their American counterparts and spent less time at sea. Automation also comes with increased maintenance.

A Russian Alfa class for instance had a crew of just 32 officers, but was originally planned for a crew of just 16. Torpedo loading was automated, communications too and reactor operations, but the downside is that these submarines were largely only used as "interceptors" for short dashes to and from ports because the increase in automation and decrease in crew size meant critical maintenance couldn't be done while the submarine was at sea.

Capture.PNG


British Astute class submarines have around 90 persons on their crew, but they're also a lot smaller then American submarines, about 20 meters shorter. They too are more automated and the Royal Navy is also limited by size and budget. They have to make some sacrifices on crew size.

The Americans aren't limited in training, budget or really any important metric when it comes to submarines. Their boats are also highly automated, but they still man large crews to allow for sections to be staffed by a team, not just an individual person. This allows them some redundancy, letting one crew member sleep while another works, performing duties in shifts and means that most maintenance can be done at sea, leaving the boat on patrol far longer then their Russian counterparts.



The shot in the helicopter, right? @Ymir

Sort of. The helicopters shown are Bell 412s, which are Air Force light transport helicopters, generally used by Home Guard Rapid Response Teams and special operations forces. I flew on Sea Kings, NH90s and whatever international partners had (Blackhawks, Mi-17, Chinook, etc.). Not enough room for medical equipment on a 412.

You can't actually see me in any of the frames, but I'm there. The reason is that I took a lot of the videos and pictures that show in that compilation. The video for instance shows this shot.



It doesn't show these. They're from the same 2017 image set. Some of the images shown in the video are older.















I'm in the video, just not visible.
 
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randomradio

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Russian subs are heavily automated because they have traditionally lacked the necessary crew training, experience or infrastructure. And with a limited naval budget, cutting crew cost and replacing them with computers was a logical step. The downside of that is that Russian crews were far less experienced then their American counterparts and spent less time at sea. Automation also comes with increased maintenance.

Is there any available data for comparison? I suspect their operating budget being insufficient is a major factor.

The same way how our aircraft also spend a lot more time in the air in comparsion to the same Russian version.
 

Ymir

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Mar 22, 2020
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Ah, Kilo. Trash 30 years ago, trash today. Too easy to follow, too noisy.

Skolpen was a Kobben class submarine (Type 205 mod) and now serves with the Polish Navy after having been removed from Norwegian service in 2001. These boats are nearly undetectable when at sea. Even today they're a major threat and have consistantly proven their worth during NATO ASW exercises, running circles around Polish Kilos (not literally, they're meant to lurk, not run), and ops in the Baltic.

S306 Skolpen circa 1998.
arkiv_fo_p_i_103_document.JPG


ORP Sęp (KNM Skolpen), now of the Polish Navy.


Kobben are the real "Black Holes" of the sea.

Is there any available data for comparison? I suspect their operating budget being insufficient is a major factor.

The same way how our aircraft also spend a lot more time in the air in comparsion to the same Russian version.

I haven't seen any public data, nothing that's accurate or confident enough for a true in-depth comparison. Sub fleets, budget included, are generally kept as quiet as possible. Budget data leads to inferences on operational readiness, armament, crew size, and a host of other metrics that can be used in conjunction to work out a picture of the submarine's overall capabilities and weaknesses. Much of what we know about Russian submarines comes from post-Soviet collapse data and western inspectors who helped decertify and decommission Russian Navy submarines.
 
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Ymir

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Soldiers from Jørstadmoen thank health professionals at Innlandet hospital for their service during the Corona pandemic.















It's a super stressful time for healthcare professionals, so thanking them for their time and service to the public is the least we can do. I've been doing a lot of work with the staff of Oslo University Hospital (psych work and blood testing mostly), everyone of the doctors and nurses could use three things right now:

1) a nap.
2) coffee or tea.
3) a thank you.
 

GuardianRED

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Basic medical testing by the crew of the 132 Air Wing medical facility.









Blarg:sick:. I'm not squeamish. I've seen blood, a lot of blood, but for some reason drawing blood makes me shivero_O.
Would like to know more about the shoulder patch (below medic) - unit patch?
 

suryakiran

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Kobben are the real "Black Holes" of the sea.

Would there not be a difference in comparing detectability while a sub is in movement or while bottomed out?

For example, in a scenario where there is movement, an AIP based sub would have the upper hand when compared to one without AIP. You would then move to detection based on wake created or temperature differences or magnetic anomalies.

While, in a bottomed out sub, lurking, the detectability would be different. would wake detection techniques work with a bottomed out sub?

Reason I ask this is because a submarine tasked with offensive tactics would normally be in the area of operations, much before hostilities actually commence. It would then remain on station and try to conserve before it carries out its actual agenda.
 

GuardianRED

Call Sign "RED"
Dec 2, 2017
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Soldiers from Jørstadmoen thank health professionals at Innlandet hospital for their service during the Corona pandemic.















It's a super stressful time for healthcare professionals, so thanking them for their time and service to the public is the least we can do. I've been doing a lot of work with the staff of Oslo University Hospital (psych work and blood testing mostly), everyone of the doctors and nurses could use three things right now:

1) a nap.
2) coffee or tea.
3) a thank you.
Thank you!!! take care and stay safe :)
 

Ymir

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Mar 22, 2020
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Norway
Some of the best doctors and nurses you'd ever see are from the Marinens jegervåpen, an umbrella group of MDK, KJK and the Tactical Boat Squadron. MJV has been merged with the Naval Division (MDK and KJK) while the Tactical Boat Squadron was made part of KJK and renamed the Vessel Division.

I learned a lot from these guys about combat trauma procedures.









Of course they're still soldiers and can shoot with the best of them.







 
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Ymir

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Mar 22, 2020
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Would like to know more about the shoulder patch (below medic) - unit patch?

Sure. These persons are from the Royal Norwegian Air Force's 132 Air Wing, of which the patch signifies. The 132 Air Wing is the primary operator of the F-35 and currently hosts part of the 330 SAR Squadron, which I was assigned to (generally speaking).

Capture.PNG


"Klar til strid" translates to "Ready for battle".

The airmen and women in the photos I posted are based at Ørland Air Station, which likely makes them subservient to the 332 Squadron. It operates and F-35ANs, and used to operate MLUd F-16s..