Naval Offshore Patrol Vessels of Indian Navy and Coast Guard : Updates & Discussions

Milspec

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Anil is aiming to keep RInfra alive.

He's selling a tolled expressway for 3600Cr and won an arbitration with Delhi Metro for 6000Cr or so. And his total debt with RInfra is 6000Cr. So he's aiming for RInfra to become debt free.



RInfra started 2018 with a debt of 19,000Cr and has come down to 6000Cr as of 2019. And their order book as of end 2019 was 28,000Cr, while planning to win another 20,000Cr in orders. So DRAL's gonna be fine.

We only have to keep an eye on the future of the shipyard.
Thier debt right now is 14808.
1591055112504.png


And reliance naval is doomed
1591055306892.png
 

Milspec

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I don't think it was badly managed under ADAG, it was just bad luck for them. Or else the USN wouldn't have contracted them to manage their Pacific Fleet. I recall Pipavav already had a debt of 7000Cr when it was bought by ADAG. And now it's just 2500Cr more than that, without much orders. That's simply too much debt.

I wouldn't compare the original owners SKIL, even the small stake that Punj Lloyd had, with L&T, too much of a qualitative difference between the two in every way.
How many ships of the pacific fleet have been serviced by Rnaval?
Just because pepboys can change oil on a 3 series doesn't mean they can start building cars to compete with BMW's.

as far as your numbers are concerned, Will say this last time, learn to read a balance sheet.
 
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Milspec

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Oh, yeah, I forgot to add this. L&T survived in the shipbuilding business because they merged their "almost failed" shipyard with the parent company, which is worth tens of billions of dollars. If it wasn't for that, L&T's shipbuilding was also headed the same way as Pipavav.


The fault lies with the MoD of course, not with either of the shipyards.
What explains L&T delivering 50 platforms, and Rnaval zilch?
 

randomradio

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Thier debt right now is 14808.
View attachment 16263

And reliance naval is doomed
View attachment 16264

Don't think the first one is updated.

RNaval will be sold obviously. But I'm less concerned about the ownership and more concerned about the future of the shipyard itself, irrespective of the ownership.

How many ships of the pacific fleet have been serviced by Rnaval?
Will say this last time, learn to read a balance sheet.

Too late for that. The fact that it was considered is proof enough. All the bad times started after 2015, with the new focus on reforming the MoD, hence killing orders. The USN would have done their due diligence before picking Pipavav.

Your balance sheet is not detailed. 🙄

Use better sources for a balance sheet.

It's 4158Cr now.

I'd suggest learning to Google search for a balance sheet first, before you ask others to learn to read it. :p

Would suggest looking up the difference between debt and liabilities. They are not the same. Your source has simply combined the two, which is frankly quite retarded.

What explains L&T delivering 50 platforms, and Rnaval zilch?

L&T has also delivered zero ships to the navy.

But has delivered 5 of 7 OPVs to the Coast Guard and some 50 of 54 interceptors, which are 90T boats. These boats can't sustain a shipyard, which is my point, that the MoD has failed both the shipyards. With naval orders for large ships, both shipyards are doomed, hence why L&T shipbuilding merged with the parent company.

Anyway, these ships are not equivalent to navy ships. Coast guard ships are not built for warfare at the same level as navy ships. Any shipyard can deliver coast guard ships. Which is why Reliance's Shachi class naval OPVs cost $700M for 5 whereas L&T's Vikram class OPVs cost $200M for 7 even after considering the Shachi weighs 1500T while the Vikram is upwards of 2000T. So one costs $140M each, while the other costs $28M each, enough to tell you there's a significant difference between the two.

What L&T has done is not impressive. They just got lucky that the parent company is richer and can survive longer.
 
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Vicky

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Just today Korean 3 big shipbuilding companies received 19B shipbuilding orders from Qatar. It's sad Indian private yards depend on govt for orders while total lack of competing in international sectors.
 

Milspec

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Don't think the first one is updated.

RNaval will be sold obviously. But I'm less concerned about the ownership and more concerned about the future of the shipyard itself, irrespective of the ownership.
It is.


Your balance sheet is not detailed. 🙄

Use better sources for a balance sheet.


It's 4158Cr now.
Ohh man, You don't seem to understand the difference between consolidated and standalone numbers.
The link that you posted, click the consolidated portion of it, it will show the exact same numbers.
Your Source
1591064893441.png


My source

1591064920590.png


I'd suggest learning to Google search for a balance sheet first, before you ask others to learn to read it. :p
hehe. That is funny.

Would suggest looking up the difference between debt and liabilities. They are not the same. Your source has simply combined the two, which is frankly quite retarded.
Really, you want to teach me liability vs debt?
1591065315821.png

:ROFLMAO:


L&T has also delivered zero ships to the navy.

But has delivered 5 of 7 OPVs to the Coast Guard and some 50 of 54 interceptors, which are 90T boats. These boats can't sustain a shipyard, which is my point, that the MoD has failed both the shipyards. With naval orders for large ships, both shipyards are doomed, hence why L&T shipbuilding merged with the parent company.

Anyway, these ships are not equivalent to navy ships. Coast guard ships are not built for warfare at the same level as navy ships. Any shipyard can deliver coast guard ships. Which is why Reliance's Shachi class naval OPVs cost $700M for 5 whereas L&T's Vikram class OPVs cost $200M for 7 even after considering the Shachi weighs 1500T while the Vikram is upwards of 2000T. So one costs $140M each, while the other costs $28M each, enough to tell you there's a significant difference between the two.

What L&T has done is not impressive. They just got lucky that the parent company is richer and can survive longer.

LOL, thats all I can say. If Navy hasn't ordered from L&T, they can't deliver to the Navy, But L&T has track record of delivery in every sphere it operates in, while ADAG is a joke in every sector it operates in Communication, Power, infra, home finance. And whatever it did decent business in was sold off, like it's AMC business to Nippon, it's power business to adani etc.






















7T
 

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_Anonymous_

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While I don't really care about the rest of his industry, some will be sold, some will take care of itself, I am mainly concerned about the shipyard.

The issue with the shipyard is the lack of orders, either from the shipping industry or from the navy.
Concerned about the shipyard eh? Good news for you. This is the 3rd shipyard to go belly up in a decade. Bharti, ABG & now RNaval.
 

_Anonymous_

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It is.



Ohh man, You don't seem to understand the difference between consolidated and standalone numbers.
The link that you posted, click the consolidated portion of it, it will show the exact same numbers.
Your Source
View attachment 16266

My source

View attachment 16267


hehe. That is funny.


Really, you want to teach me liability vs debt?
View attachment 16268
:ROFLMAO:




LOL, thats all I can say. If Navy hasn't ordered from L&T, they can't deliver to the Navy, But L&T has track record of delivery in every sphere it operates in, while ADAG is a joke in every sector it operates in Communication, Power, infra, home finance. And whatever it did decent business in was sold off, like it's AMC business to Nippon, it's power business to adani etc.






















7T
Exactly how much have you made in the stock market speculating ? @randomradio
 

randomradio

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It is.



Ohh man, You don't seem to understand the difference between consolidated and standalone numbers.
The link that you posted, click the consolidated portion of it, it will show the exact same numbers.
Your Source
View attachment 16266

My source

View attachment 16267


hehe. That is funny.


Really, you want to teach me liability vs debt?
View attachment 16268
:ROFLMAO:




LOL, thats all I can say. If Navy hasn't ordered from L&T, they can't deliver to the Navy, But L&T has track record of delivery in every sphere it operates in, while ADAG is a joke in every sector it operates in Communication, Power, infra, home finance. And whatever it did decent business in was sold off, like it's AMC business to Nippon, it's power business to adani etc.






















7T

Eh... Ahem.

This is what I already said:
Would suggest looking up the difference between debt and liabilities. They are not the same. Your source has simply combined the two, which is frankly quite retarded.

We are only talking about debt, because that's what Anil owes to others, not all liabilities. And with the sale of their assets, which I've mentioned above, it appears RInfra will survive the near future as a debt-free company. So their DRAL investment is very safe for now.

RInfra has obviously become a whole lot leaner in the process, but at the very least they will survive.

If Navy hasn't ordered from L&T, they can't deliver to the Navy,

That's the problem. If the navy won't order, no shipyard can deliver, so the shipyards with poorer backing will obviously close first.
Concerned about the shipyard eh? Good news for you. This is the 3rd shipyard to go belly up in a decade. Bharti, ABG & now RNaval.

Yep, but unlike the other two shipyards, this one is more advanced and would be a real waste if we lose it to something as ridiculous as lack of orders.
 

Milspec

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Eh... Ahem.

This is what I already said:
Would suggest looking up the difference between debt and liabilities. They are not the same. Your source has simply combined the two, which is frankly quite retarded.

We are only talking about debt, because that's what Anil owes to others, not all liabilities. And with the sale of their assets, which I've mentioned above, it appears RInfra will survive the near future as a debt-free company. So their DRAL investment is very safe for now.
Babaji
Rinfra Total Debt: 14808cr
Rinfra Liability: 68493cr

1591102639248.png
 
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randomradio

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Babaji
Rinfra Total Debt: 14808cr
Rinfra Liability: 68493cr

View attachment 16273

Their consolidated figures don't matter in terms of surviving. They will just sell whatever subsidiaries needed to remain operational, which they have done.

Maybe you don't know but Pipavav is under RInfra, which is under insolvency. So it's pointless to combine the two, which is where all that extra debt comes from. We all know RNEL is doing badly.

So, as it stands, RInfra's debt is 4000+Cr and on its way to become debt free.

You can look up the list, their future looks promising. Especially considering the number of defence deals coming up over the next 3 years.

You gotta learn how to analyse these things better.
 
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Milspec

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Their consolidated figures don't matter in terms of surviving. They will just sell whatever subsidiaries needed to remain operational, which they have done.

Maybe you don't know but Pipavav is under RInfra, which is under insolvency. So it's pointless to combine the two, which is where all that extra debt comes from. We all know RNEL is doing badly.

So, as it stands, RInfra's debt is 4000+Cr and on its way to become debt free.

You can look up the list, their future looks promising. Especially considering the number of defence deals coming up over the next 3 years.

You gotta learn how to analyse these things better.

Let's straighten out a few things first:
>Do you understand that numbers I posted which you claimed "Your source has simply combined the two, which is frankly quite retarded. " is false as almost all of your claims?

>I haven't posted a number that is the liability that I passed off as debt, the fact is you were just lying or just ignorant, despite showing you the exact consolidated numbers?

>Do you understand that when Rinfra's subsidiaries fails to pay it's debt, Rinfra assets will be attached in NCLT?


Now about Rinfra is on it's way to success. a stock that traded at 550 now is at 15.
1591154958709.png


Ratings : ROFL

1591155027365.png



This surely is the benchmark of a successful company.

As far as analysis, I have quite a few stocks in my portfolio, I do them quite regularly. ADAG group companies as of now are pure shit just like it's promoter.
 

randomradio

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Let's straighten out a few things first:
>Do you understand that numbers I posted which you claimed "Your source has simply combined the two, which is frankly quite retarded. " is false as almost all of your claims?

>I haven't posted a number that is the liability that I passed off as debt, the fact is you were just lying or just ignorant, despite showing you the exact consolidated numbers?

>Do you understand that when Rinfra's subsidiaries fails to pay it's debt, Rinfra assets will be attached in NCLT?


Now about Rinfra is on it's way to success. a stock that traded at 550 now is at 15.
View attachment 16285

Ratings : ROFL

View attachment 16286


This surely is the benchmark of a successful company.

As far as analysis, I have quite a few stocks in my portfolio, I do them quite regularly. ADAG group companies as of now are pure shit just like it's promoter.

Firstly, consolidated balance sheet matters zilch in this case, since pretty much all the extra debt is only from RNaval. 4100 Cr + 9500Cr comes up to 13600Cr. The remaining 700+Cr is from all the other subsidiaries from RInfra, so the company is actually doing well.

Secondly, I didn't bother looking too much into your figure, I only saw the 14kCr and decided you are just referring to all the liabilities since your image did not give any extra details. All you did was post an image, not a link. So going by your incomplete image, it's easy to jump to conclusions since I don't use your source at all. Otoh, I'm used to looking at Moneycontrol instead.

And as I pointed out, it's pretty much meaningless to look at the consolidated figures due to RNaval weighing the numbers down all by itself.

RInfra's stock is down because of unnecessary speculation in a field where most people who invest do not really have a clue about the defence industry or the aviation sector in general. And this has nothing to do with Anil or RInfra. I'm betting on Dassault for RInfra's future, not RInfra or Anil particularly.

As for RInfra's subsidiaries being attached to RInfra, of course that's going to happen. But the amount is too small for it to matter in the whole scheme of things. As I already mentioned right in the beginning, if RNaval's insolvency goes bad for RInfra, they will sell more assets and keep the company alive. Furthermore, Anil can also use some other assets to simply pay off RNaval's debt and keep the shipyard operational. He still has the option to save the shipyard, and the navy can also help by providing advance payments in order to finish the OPV contract, which still remains an option. Point being, the shipyard is a strategic asset, something your regular joe investor won't understand, since he's not used to such a thing happening in India. It's one of those companies that can get a bail out from the govt. It's not Kingfisher. So if Anil's able to fix something in his favour, then the govt will help out in the end, either through advance payments on pending orders or through soft loans.

The problem is you are looking at RNaval or DRAL etc as just another company. But that's really, really far from the truth. Strategic assets will get special consideration. That's the reason why MoD has still not cancelled the LPD project even though the IN has asked for the reissuance of the tender. It means something is in the works that can help save the shipyard. Let's not forget that RInfra bought Pipavav when the LPD tender was ongoing.

Your thinking needs to change with regards to strategic companies. The govt won't let them fail so easily. Worse comes to worst, MDL (or any other PSU shipyard) will buy RNaval along with its debt and all the pending projects will continue as usual. The shipyard itself is first class. They managed to start construction on a brand new naval design in 2015 and launch 2 ships by 2017, that's a massive achievement, especially considering they had so many problems with getting working capital.
 

Milspec

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Firstly, consolidated balance sheet matters zilch in this case, since pretty much all the extra debt is only from RNaval. 4100 Cr + 9500Cr comes up to 13600Cr. The remaining 700+Cr is from all the other subsidiaries from RInfra, so the company is actually doing well.
Again Incorrect.
Current debt for Rnaval: 6327cr



Secondly, I didn't bother looking too much into your figure, I only saw the 14kCr and decided you are just referring to all the liabilities since your image did not give any extra details.
So just ignorant.

And as I pointed out, it's pretty much meaningless to look at the consolidated figures due to RNaval weighing the numbers down all by itself.
Thats because your understanding of how a business runs seems to be zilch.

RInfra's stock is down because of unnecessary speculation in a field where most people who invest do not really have a clue about the defence industry or the aviation sector in general. And this has nothing to do with Anil or RInfra. I'm betting on Dassault for RInfra's future, not RInfra or Anil particularly.
As I said, every broker, every Mutual Fund, every investor in the market, every rating agency who rate ADAG as garbage are idiots, you are the only one who was blessed with brahmya gyaan.

As for RInfra's subsidiaries being attached to RInfra, of course that's going to happen. But the amount is too small for it to matter in the whole scheme of things. As I already mentioned right in the beginning, if RNaval's insolvency goes bad for RInfra, they will sell more assets and keep the company alive. Furthermore, Anil can also use some other assets to simply pay off RNaval's debt and keep the shipyard operational. He still has the option to save the shipyard, and the navy can also help by providing advance payments in order to finish the OPV contract, which still remains an option. Point being, the shipyard is a strategic asset, something your regular joe investor won't understand, since he's not used to such a thing happening in India. It's one of those companies that can get a bail out from the govt. It's not Kingfisher. So if Anil's able to fix something in his favour, then the govt will help out in the end, either through advance payments on pending orders or through soft loans.
This nonsense that you spew emanates from basic lack of understanding of actual performance of the company.

Rnaval has a debt a of 6327cr which is current. i.e it needs to service that debt aswell as pay back the amount when the term for the debt matures. In addition, Rnaval has negative reserves, i.e -11905cr. That will eventually need to be addressed when it comes back as debt later.
Total Asset Value of Rnaval stands as 4110 cr. So even by liquidating Rnaval's all assets, it won't be able to recoup the money that it owes current and what it will be owing for receivables.

The other assets you claim that Rinfra can sell are entities like BSES power companies, Metro projects. i.e selling off 20-30% ROCE companies to secure a currently massively loss making company. I don't know in which world a board would approve such a shitty decision.

The problem is you are looking at RNaval or DRAL etc as just another company. But that's really, really far from the truth. Strategic assets will get special consideration. That's the reason why MoD has still not cancelled the LPD project even though the IN has asked for the reissuance of the tender. It means something is in the works that can help save the shipyard. Let's not forget that RInfra bought Pipavav when the LPD tender was ongoing.
With 4000cr fixed assets Rnaval is not a significant strategic asset. I won't blink if it's sold off the piece by piece in NCLT.

Your thinking needs to change with regards to strategic companies. The govt won't let them fail so easily. Worse comes to worst, MDL (or any other PSU shipyard) will buy RNaval along with its debt and all the pending projects will continue as usual. The shipyard itself is first class. They managed to start construction on a brand new naval design in 2015 and launch 2 ships by 2017, that's a massive achievement, especially considering they had so many problems with getting working capital.

That would be a horrible idea for anyone to buy off Rnaval with it's debt. Let it go to NCLT. If I was MDL, CSL or GSRE I would not buy Rnaval at all. let it sit in NCLT and auction off all of it's assets and then bid for the land and assets for market value, then bring Rinfra group companies to NCLT to recover the rest, by attaching BSES Kerela, Mumbai metro, rest of the power and EPC business, the shed at Mihan, etc.

If Mota bhai wants to save DRAL he is free to buy it off ADAG before it goes to nclt.
 
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randomradio

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Again Incorrect.
Current debt for Rnaval: 6327cr




So just ignorant.


Thats because your understanding of how a business runs seems to be zilch.


As I said, every broker, every Mutual Fund, every investor in the market, every rating agency who rate ADAG as garbage are idiots, you are the only one who was blessed with brahmya gyaan.


This nonsense that you spew emanates from basic lack of understanding of actual performance of the company.

Rnaval has a debt a of 6327cr which is current. i.e it needs to service that debt aswell as pay back the amount when the term for the debt matures. In addition, Rnaval has negative reserves, i.e -11905cr. That will eventually need to be addressed when it comes back as debt later.
Total Asset Value of Rnaval stands as 4110 cr. So even by liquidating Rnaval's all assets, it won't be able to recoup the money that it owes current and what it will be owing for receivables.

The other assets you claim that Rinfra can sell are entities like BSES power companies, Metro projects. i.e selling off 20-30% ROCE companies to secure a currently massively loss making company. I don't know in which world a board would approve such a shitty decision.


With 4000cr fixed assets Rnaval is not a significant strategic asset. I won't blink if it's sold off the piece by piece in NCLT.



That would be a horrible idea for anyone to buy off Rnaval with it's debt. Let it go to NCLT. If I was MDL, CSL or GSRE I would not buy Rnaval at all. let it sit in NCLT and auction off all of it's assets and then bid for the land and assets for market value, then bring Rinfra group companies to NCLT to recover the rest, by attaching BSES Kerela, Mumbai metro, rest of the power and EPC business, the shed at Mihan, etc.

If Mota bhai wants to save DRAL he is free to buy it off ADAG before it goes to nclt.

There's $10-15B worth in orders in the running over the next 10 years for whoever owns RNaval. These deals are primarily aimed towards the private industry. And at least another $30-40B beyond that. And this is all without counting on capital ships or future carrier requirement or even exports. And this is only for the navy, not the civilian market.

Compared to that a few thousand crores in debt is nothing. Which is why Anil kept the shipyard running even after churning out so much loss. Which is why L&T also rescued its shipyard.

The problem has always been that shipping is for the rich, not for the poor or the in-betweeners. Anil ended up falling in the third category unfortunately.

The other assets you claim that Rinfra can sell are entities like BSES power companies, Metro projects. i.e selling off 20-30% ROCE companies to secure a currently massively loss making company. I don't know in which world a board would approve such a shitty decision.

That's the issue. He has two choices. Sell profit-making assets now, save the shipyard and bet on the future. Or get thrown under the bankruptcy bus, sell profit-making assets in order to pay off all the loans anyway, and then lose the shipyard as well. In the second method, he will probably save some business that's worth 3000 Cr or 4000Cr or so compared to the first option, but no real future.

If he puts the shipyard back in the black, then he will be allowed to complete the orders for the navy and coast guard, and the USN contract can also become active again. The 7th Fleet is a bigger customer when it comes to maintenance than the entire IN, never mind having lost most of this market to the DPSUs anyway. The MSRA with the USN alone is bigger than the worth of the entire company. And with the Pivot to Asia, the USN is adding more ships to the Indo-Pacific than what they have right now. Who would wanna lose such a big customer? And the MSRA with the USN opens up the navies of NATO, Japan, Korea, Australia etc as well.

This shipyard has a guranteed future with just its existing contracts. And its current contracts guarantee new contracts from other sources. So its current debt and other issues are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. And DRAL's future is even brighter with plans to roll out 2 Falcon 2000s every month.
 

Milspec

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There's $10-15B worth in orders in the running over the next 10 years for whoever owns RNaval. These deals are primarily aimed towards the private industry. And at least another $30-40B beyond that. And this is all without counting on capital ships or future carrier requirement or even exports. And this is only for the navy, not the civilian market.

A shipyard that cannot deliver OPV's will build carriers, that's absurd even for you.
Where are these 10-15 billion dollars coming from? You in your garage are in better financial position to execute these 10-15 billion dollars worth of orders than Rnaval. Even if you start with zero capital, you will be close to 17000 cr in the positive compared to rnaval.


Compared to that a few thousand crores in debt is nothing. Which is why Anil kept the shipyard running even after churning out so much loss. Which is why L&T also rescued its shipyard.

The problem has always been that shipping is for the rich, not for the poor or the in-betweeners. Anil ended up falling in the third category unfortunately.
Compare the balance sheet of L&T vs Rinfra, both of the parent companies. Similarly, compare group companies like L&T Infotech and L&T tech services and L&T finance, and compare them to ADAG group companies like Reliance power, Reliance home fin and Reliance capital.

You will see the stark difference in management.


That's the issue. He has two choices. Sell profit-making assets now, save the shipyard and bet on the future. Or get thrown under the bankruptcy bus, sell profit-making assets in order to pay off all the loans anyway, and then lose the shipyard as well. In the second method, he will probably save some business that's worth 3000 Cr or 4000Cr or so compared to the first option, but no real future.

If he puts the shipyard back in the black, then he will be allowed to complete the orders for the navy and coast guard, and the USN contract can also become active again. The 7th Fleet is a bigger customer when it comes to maintenance than the entire IN, never mind having lost most of this market to the DPSUs anyway. The MSRA with the USN alone is bigger than the worth of the entire company. And with the Pivot to Asia, the USN is adding more ships to the Indo-Pacific than what they have right now. Who would wanna lose such a big customer? And the MSRA with the USN opens up the navies of NATO, Japan, Korea, Australia etc as well.

This shipyard has a guranteed future with just its existing contracts. And its current contracts guarantee new contracts from other sources. So its current debt and other issues are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. And DRAL's future is even brighter with plans to roll out 2 Falcon 2000s every month.
All I'll say is lol. A company that cannot build OPV's will service USN fleet. How many ships has it serviced till date? what is the revenue generated from that?
 

randomradio

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All I'll say is lol. A company that cannot build OPV's will service USN fleet. How many ships has it serviced till date? what is the revenue generated from that?

As long as the shipyard survives, regardless of ownership, fulfilling these won't be a problem.
 

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Ankit Kumar

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I don't think the Russians have pockets deep enough to sustain such a big shipyard in a nation where shipbuilding thrives on miniscule Navy orders.

Would be better for Russians to somehow work a formula with GoI and GSL and acquire some stake there as GSL will be building the Russian Frigates and maybe Minesweepers with Russian help.
 

_Anonymous_

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I don't think the Russians have pockets deep enough to sustain such a big shipyard in a nation where shipbuilding thrives on miniscule Navy orders.

Would be better for Russians to somehow work a formula with GoI and GSL and acquire some stake there as GSL will be building the Russian Frigates and maybe Minesweepers with Russian help.
Given the current market scenario, the yard would be shutdown & financial institutions write down their investments as a loss. In a few years once the situation improves, the process can commence once more.