Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

What should we select?


  • Total voters
    35

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
3,816
3,679
Bangalore
The choice has to be made this year, 'cause they wanna expedite the R&D of the carrier.

As for numbers, assuming a 70% availability, we will need 40 SHs or 48 Rafales. Because the two-seat Rafales cannot be operated on carriers. So I think the price advantage belongs to the SH.
IN will want to lease 4-5 aircrafts asap. Maybe by this year end only.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,554
10,789
India
IN will want to lease 4-5 aircrafts asap. Maybe by this year end only.

Yeah. Killing the tender process alone was enough of a clue that they are in a hurry. They are likely already operating on a very accelerated timetable due to the 2-year delay. A 2025 metal cutting date is already impossible now. The best hope is to cut the production time. By half, someone was saying.
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,325
1,054
France
Will try to showcase operations with 2 dummy Harpoon missiles. Rafale showed flying with a single Exocet.
Rafale demo was made with one Exocet and 2 tanks. You can imagine within the same weight to operate with 2 Exocet and one 2000L tank.
The 2 exocet config is not open so far at the French navy request, but it's not as hard.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
3,816
3,679
Bangalore
Rafale demo was made with one Exocet and 2 tanks. You can imagine within the same weight to operate with 2 Exocet and one 2000L tank.
The 2 exocet config is not open so far at the French navy request, but it's not as hard.
I believe the 1 AShM and 2 tanks were the requirements IN would have requested. It's the Boeing marketing attempt as of now.

Once both platform complete the demonstration, it's pretty much about which G2G offer is better.

Because I think both platforms fullfill the requirements sought by Navy.
 
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_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
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Mumbai
what about the Rafale case? no dual seat....
The only disadvantage I can see for France , all things being equal ( i.e - it passes muster with the IN irrespective of whether it's a single or dual seat & of course the price point which should be within reasonable range even if it's higher than the Hornets ) is at the time of making the decision in Delhi , what's the state of Indo US relationship given the blow hot blow cold saga going on over our relationship with Russia .

If things are seriously off track , Delhi may throw a bone Washington's way .

After all that's how China bought the US oligarchy . What better example than Irish Joe & his family ? Under the garb of getting China's co operation on Russia , he's lifted all the restrictions Trump had introduced on China with practically zero reportage on it by the western media where the entire headlines are dominated by the Ukraine war . How do you like that for subterfuge ?

If you were to ask resident retards like Paddy & Sweetie , they wouldn't even be aware of any such development . Isn't it ? @BMD @Innominate
 

Tatvamasi

Senior member
Jan 5, 2018
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Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
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1,528
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Site inaccessible.

Sorry.. Just posted for the heading.. I d r w
Nothing much in content.

F18 will be here .. This month with flight test in April/ may.

--------------

My views..

If Rafale M is selected, it ll tag team with IAF rafale wherever needed.
Tedbf Flight profile will be closer to Rafale.

If F18 is selected, will help in accessing US inventory in case of war with China.

Until TEDBF is ready.

Both Rafale & F18 won't give us source codes to integrate what we want.

Tedbf will give us just that, increasing the flexibility.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,189
13,065
Mumbai
Sorry.. Just posted for the heading.. I d r w
Nothing much in content.

F18 will be here .. This month with flight test in April/ may.

--------------

My views..

If Rafale M is selected, it ll tag team with IAF rafale wherever needed.
Tedbf Flight profile will be closer to Rafale.

If F18 is selected, will help in accessing US inventory in case of war with China.

Until TEDBF is ready.

Both Rafale & F18 won't give us source codes to integrate what we want.

Tedbf will give us just that, increasing the flexibility.
F-18 Super Hornets are definitely a better bet though the thought of a front line US platform in service with us creates dependencies of the kind which'd give any right thinking IN or MoD / GoI nightmares.

If it's rejected that could be the only reason & probably the price tag. You could also throw in the consideration that Boeing would be winding up their production lines of these SH by the end of the decade or before rendering product support another big hassle by the respective users especially foreign ones.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,587
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India
F-18 Super Hornets are definitely a better bet though the thought of a front line US platform in service with us creates dependencies of the kind which'd give any right thinking IN or MoD / GoI nightmares.

If it's rejected that could be the only reason & probably the price tag. You could also throw in the consideration that Boeing would be winding up their production lines of these SH by the end of the decade or before rendering product support another big hassle by the respective users especially foreign ones.

Lets assume war with Chinese..

Would F18 hold the ground / sea?

With Chinese going into stealth fighters.

Alone F18 won't be able to win.
Rafale, IAF seems confident to go against.

But with multinational efforts or emergency purchase of jets from OEM, it ll only be possible with F18.

We only need this support until tedbf gets inducted., probably leased F18 s until then we be good I think.

Anyways there was a news regarding lease of few aircraft s for training.
Leasing the whole requirement will get us faster induction.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,189
13,065
Mumbai
Lets assume war with Chinese..

Would F18 hold the ground / sea?

With Chinese going into stealth fighters.

Alone F18 won't be able to win.
Rafale, IAF seems confident to go against.

But with multinational efforts or emergency purchase of jets from OEM, it ll only be possible with F18.

We only need this support until tedbf gets inducted., probably leased F18 s until then we be good I think.

Anyways there was a news regarding lease of few aircraft s for training.
Leasing the whole requirement will get us faster induction.
Depends on when the next war happens & whether the next conflict is confined to the borders or whether it's contested in all realms.

I doubt you'd see Chinese stealth fighters in the IOR if the next war breaks out in all realms in the next 3-4 yrs.Moreover in the next 3-4 yrs assuming we sign a GTG agreement, we'd still be in the midst of induction training & raising of the respective squadrons irrespective of whichever aircraft we choose. This means we'd be fighting with what we have viz : MiG-29Ks.

Leasing is a temporary solution to overcome immediate pressing issues & for the purpose of training / familiarising oneself with the entire system not just the aircraft. Leasing has to be followed by a regular procurement otherwise the entire exercise is a futile one.

Long leases of such aircrafts without firm commitments to procurement doesn't occur / hasn't occured till date. For perspective refer to French leasing of in service Rafales from their AF to Greece & Croatia respectively. This was followed by firm orders by those nations within a few yrs.
 

Herciv

Active member
Nov 30, 2017
251
240
FRANCE
For several months now, France has been studying the sale of used Rafale Marines to encourage the signing of a new contract with India. Dassault Aviation is currently participating in two tenders in India, one for the air force (114 aircraft), the other for the navy (up to 57 aircraft in several batches). In particular, the Indian Navy is to equip its first "Made in India" aircraft carrier, the 262-meter INS Vikrant, which is scheduled to enter service in 2023. As part of this tender, the Rafale Marine carried out very successful tests in January in Goa on a land platform. The French Navy was able to demonstrate all its expertise in naval aviation (landing) and convinced the Indians of the Rafale Marine's performance. This aircraft would also give the Indians a uniform fleet between the Rafale Air and the Rafale Marine.
According to corroborating sources, the sale of four used Rafale-Marines with the F3R standard is likely to give France a competitive advantage over the Americans. These four recently upgraded aircraft could be quickly put into service on the Indian aircraft carrier. The Rafale Marine is well-suited to the Indian carrier's configuration in terms of size: it can easily use the elevators of the INS Vikrant. This is not quite the case for its American rival, the Boeing F-18, which fits snugly into the elevators of the Indian aircraft carrier (across). As for the F-18, it has not completely finished its tests, which began last December. After some logistical setbacks, it should resume testing in May. India could make its decision by the end of the year for 26 aircraft, including two two-seater Air Force aircraft dedicated to training.
Capability gaps
The sale of used Rafales poses a number of problems for the armed forces, which remain insufficiently equipped in terms of capabilities. This is particularly the case with the Rafale in the air force, which is struggling to fulfil all missions in a geopolitical conflict context. International tensions have highlighted the capability shortcomings of a country like France, which aspires to play a role as an arbiter but also to participate in coercive missions on the international scene. Before the conflict in Ukraine and before France's willingness to sell four used Rafale Marines to India, the navy was already studying a plan to renew its Rafale fleet, the first of which entered service in 2002, while the air force's entered service in 2006.
"We are currently working with the Air Force to see what the consequences of exporting the Rafale to Croatia are, in order to rebuild a five/seven year plan to determine what the Navy needs. Post-LPM, in 25/30, the question will arise, but the format will not change," explained Admiral Pierre Vandier, Chief of Staff of the French Navy, in an interview with La Tribune in July 2021.
Since the delivery of its entire fleet, the Navy has not had any new aircraft. The entire fleet has been upgraded by retrofitting. "I see that there will be a scissor effect around 2030-2035: the combination of retrofits and the disappearance of the oldest aircraft may lead to a problem of size, which is 42 aircraft (currently 41)," said the French Navy's chief of staff. Especially since the average age of the air force fleet is diverging from that of the navy, which has also lost four Rafales in operations since its commissioning. "We're going to have a lot more old aircraft compared to the air force. To keep up with the standards, we need to retrofit more aircraft," said Admiral Vandier.
The possible sale of used Rafale to India (10% of the French Navy's fleet), combined with a contract for 26 aircraft, could finally set in motion the Navy's fleet renewal schedule. This would not completely displease the Navy. Provided that a French order is placed concomitantly with a possible contract with India. Clearly, this sale would allow the regeneration of the French Navy's fleet.
Parliamentary concerns
Finally, parliamentarians have expressed concern about the withdrawal of Rafales from the fleets of the armed forces. While deputies Patricia Mirallès (LREM) and Jean-Louis Thiériot (LR) welcomed the export success of the Rafale in a report on high-intensity readiness, "they wish to express their concerns about the consequences for our armed forces of these exports. This equipment is in fact partly taken from the capabilities of our armed forces. Thus, 24 Rafales (12 for Greece and 12 for Croatia) have been taken from the 102 Rafale aircraft in the French air force. By the end of 2024, 27 Rafales will be delivered, followed by 12 more in 2025 to make up for the Greek order. By the end of 2025, the air force will have 117 Rafales instead of the 129 planned in the military programming law (LPM). Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly has pledged to place an order for 12 Rafales to compensate for the sale of used aircraft to Croatia. "But when?" the two deputies question.
"Consequently, the rapporteurs consider it essential to proceed with orders allowing our armed forces to fully restore the capabilities they should have had in the absence of these exports. In the longer term, a fundamental reflection should be carried out by all actors, in order to avoid that exports systematically result in a drawdown of stocks intended for our armed forces", according to the two rapporteurs.
Finally, they believe that the withdrawal of capabilities from armed forces stocks "cannot become a permanent solution, unless it structurally weakens our armed forces. "All avenues must therefore be explored, including those consisting of integrating a predictable quota for exports into public orders for our armed forces, as the Italians do," they emphasize. The new or incoming Minister of the Armed Forces (Gérald Darmanin, or even Sébastien Lecornu or Jean-Michel Blanquer?) will have this priority file on his desk to deal with. This includes both the Rafale file within the armed forces and the Rafale export file, starting with India. This is fortunate, since Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi will be arriving in France very soon. He will be one of the very first foreign leaders to make a state visit to France, if not the first, after Emmanuel Macron's re-election.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,587
1,528
India
Ia this pressure tactics on US to provide better terms on F18?

Cuz F18 is yet to finish trials.

Modi deciding on Rafale M before even F18 trials isn't fair. Unless US given terms are unacceptable to us.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,554
10,789
India
Lets assume war with Chinese..

Would F18 hold the ground / sea?

With Chinese going into stealth fighters.

Alone F18 won't be able to win.
Rafale, IAF seems confident to go against.

But with multinational efforts or emergency purchase of jets from OEM, it ll only be possible with F18.

We only need this support until tedbf gets inducted., probably leased F18 s until then we be good I think.

Anyways there was a news regarding lease of few aircraft s for training.
Leasing the whole requirement will get us faster induction.

In a war at sea, the network is more important than the platform. Weapons too, the Americans have better AShM capabilities than France, and can be linked to the main network. So it still goes back to the network.

In a war with China, the logistics and attrition support we will get from the US will be much more extensive than what Ukraine is getting.

Unlike the IAF, which can solve its obsolescence problems in 10 years, the IN will need 20-30 years because of the time it will take to get advanced carrier capabilities. That's how long the IN needs American assistance before becoming independent.

Unless there is a massive difference in capabilities, it doesn't make sense for the navy to select the Rafale. The rule of thumb is the forces knows best.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,554
10,789
India
For several months now, France has been studying the sale of used Rafale Marines to encourage the signing of a new contract with India. Dassault Aviation is currently participating in two tenders in India, one for the air force (114 aircraft), the other for the navy (up to 57 aircraft in several batches). In particular, the Indian Navy is to equip its first "Made in India" aircraft carrier, the 262-meter INS Vikrant, which is scheduled to enter service in 2023. As part of this tender, the Rafale Marine carried out very successful tests in January in Goa on a land platform. The French Navy was able to demonstrate all its expertise in naval aviation (landing) and convinced the Indians of the Rafale Marine's performance. This aircraft would also give the Indians a uniform fleet between the Rafale Air and the Rafale Marine.
According to corroborating sources, the sale of four used Rafale-Marines with the F3R standard is likely to give France a competitive advantage over the Americans. These four recently upgraded aircraft could be quickly put into service on the Indian aircraft carrier. The Rafale Marine is well-suited to the Indian carrier's configuration in terms of size: it can easily use the elevators of the INS Vikrant. This is not quite the case for its American rival, the Boeing F-18, which fits snugly into the elevators of the Indian aircraft carrier (across). As for the F-18, it has not completely finished its tests, which began last December. After some logistical setbacks, it should resume testing in May. India could make its decision by the end of the year for 26 aircraft, including two two-seater Air Force aircraft dedicated to training.
Capability gaps
The sale of used Rafales poses a number of problems for the armed forces, which remain insufficiently equipped in terms of capabilities. This is particularly the case with the Rafale in the air force, which is struggling to fulfil all missions in a geopolitical conflict context. International tensions have highlighted the capability shortcomings of a country like France, which aspires to play a role as an arbiter but also to participate in coercive missions on the international scene. Before the conflict in Ukraine and before France's willingness to sell four used Rafale Marines to India, the navy was already studying a plan to renew its Rafale fleet, the first of which entered service in 2002, while the air force's entered service in 2006.
"We are currently working with the Air Force to see what the consequences of exporting the Rafale to Croatia are, in order to rebuild a five/seven year plan to determine what the Navy needs. Post-LPM, in 25/30, the question will arise, but the format will not change," explained Admiral Pierre Vandier, Chief of Staff of the French Navy, in an interview with La Tribune in July 2021.
Since the delivery of its entire fleet, the Navy has not had any new aircraft. The entire fleet has been upgraded by retrofitting. "I see that there will be a scissor effect around 2030-2035: the combination of retrofits and the disappearance of the oldest aircraft may lead to a problem of size, which is 42 aircraft (currently 41)," said the French Navy's chief of staff. Especially since the average age of the air force fleet is diverging from that of the navy, which has also lost four Rafales in operations since its commissioning. "We're going to have a lot more old aircraft compared to the air force. To keep up with the standards, we need to retrofit more aircraft," said Admiral Vandier.
The possible sale of used Rafale to India (10% of the French Navy's fleet), combined with a contract for 26 aircraft, could finally set in motion the Navy's fleet renewal schedule. This would not completely displease the Navy. Provided that a French order is placed concomitantly with a possible contract with India. Clearly, this sale would allow the regeneration of the French Navy's fleet.
Parliamentary concerns
Finally, parliamentarians have expressed concern about the withdrawal of Rafales from the fleets of the armed forces. While deputies Patricia Mirallès (LREM) and Jean-Louis Thiériot (LR) welcomed the export success of the Rafale in a report on high-intensity readiness, "they wish to express their concerns about the consequences for our armed forces of these exports. This equipment is in fact partly taken from the capabilities of our armed forces. Thus, 24 Rafales (12 for Greece and 12 for Croatia) have been taken from the 102 Rafale aircraft in the French air force. By the end of 2024, 27 Rafales will be delivered, followed by 12 more in 2025 to make up for the Greek order. By the end of 2025, the air force will have 117 Rafales instead of the 129 planned in the military programming law (LPM). Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly has pledged to place an order for 12 Rafales to compensate for the sale of used aircraft to Croatia. "But when?" the two deputies question.
"Consequently, the rapporteurs consider it essential to proceed with orders allowing our armed forces to fully restore the capabilities they should have had in the absence of these exports. In the longer term, a fundamental reflection should be carried out by all actors, in order to avoid that exports systematically result in a drawdown of stocks intended for our armed forces", according to the two rapporteurs.
Finally, they believe that the withdrawal of capabilities from armed forces stocks "cannot become a permanent solution, unless it structurally weakens our armed forces. "All avenues must therefore be explored, including those consisting of integrating a predictable quota for exports into public orders for our armed forces, as the Italians do," they emphasize. The new or incoming Minister of the Armed Forces (Gérald Darmanin, or even Sébastien Lecornu or Jean-Michel Blanquer?) will have this priority file on his desk to deal with. This includes both the Rafale file within the armed forces and the Rafale export file, starting with India. This is fortunate, since Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi will be arriving in France very soon. He will be one of the very first foreign leaders to make a state visit to France, if not the first, after Emmanuel Macron's re-election.

It's not a sale though, only a lease for 5 or 10 years.
Ia this pressure tactics on US to provide better terms on F18?

Cuz F18 is yet to finish trials.

Modi deciding on Rafale M before even F18 trials isn't fair. Unless US given terms are unacceptable to us.

The decision will naturally take many months after the SH is tested. It's an article from the French perspective.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,587
1,528
India
It's not a sale though, only a lease for 5 or 10 years.


The decision will naturally take many months after the SH is tested. It's an article from the French perspective.
4 Rafale M in stobar can perform role of how many Mig 29k ?
Will we be in trouble for the spares of mig 29k because of Russia Ukraine war?