MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Sancho]

Except that AESA will be available to morrow since 10 years

I think you confuse the time line with the promise to integrate HMS into Rafale

Anyway, it doesn't matter what you think, the Rafale will win the tender with flying colours.

True, simple opinions doesn't matter, facts however do and that's what I am pointing out!
Rafale has a chance like any other fighter in the tender, but given the changed circumstances of budgets, political influence, reduced edge of Rafale against the competitors, the chances are not as high as they were in the MMRCA 1.0.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Of course you didn't outright say it, but you obviously changed your mind in the last few weeks, since your earlier point was that F4 will be proposed and now it's just the Indian version.

No I'm still convince that F4 will be proposed, What I highlight is that the Rafale that is available for testing today has all the capabilities to win the tender while its competitors must show prototype capabilities to be at the same level.

That's wrong as you know very well and simply provable, by the capability difference of an F3R in French forces and the one in IAF.
Will French AF have HMS? A 2000lb PGM, possibly also a 250lb PGM? TD or other EW enhancements? Even the claim that Talios is better, is highly doubtful, because IAF would never chose inferior equipment and pay even extra for the integration.

Yes there is half a dozen HMS which have been integrated on the Rafale, but French air force and DGA doesn't want it for the moment, I explain it to you several time. To integrate an HMS is very easy, it takes two months! it was on offer on all our export proposal without adding delay to the delivery it is really a very minor problem but you always mention it as if it was hard for us to have it. A real problem on the contrary is for EF to fire the Storm Shadow, because it's an heavy weapon and there is instability at the time of missile and aircraft separation. In this case the delay is due to technical difficulties and not to the will of the air forces, but for HMS this is really not the case. Also I explain you several time that 250 lb PGM is no more needed by French air force because we replace it by the BLU 126 with the AASM Kit. And yes F3R include EW enhancement. For Talios versus Litening, you choose litening because you have already purchased 184 PODs!

It doesn't offer anything new in the MMRCA proposal! That's why I said, there won't be a need for Rafale trials, since all capabilities that can be proposed and tested, will already be procured in the Rafales IAF bought. While the competition added new capabilities, that were not aviable in their past offers. EF for example can not only showcase the centurion upgrade, but also SPEAR 3 and possibly even the first EW enhancements that now getting contracted for RAF for example. I'm still waiting for a confirmation on statements from Farnborough, about Marte ER, of if some of the capabilities showcased at ILA 2018 (SPICE 250, AARGM, 1800l supersonic fuel tanks) will actually be contracted, but there is more coming for the EF and sooner than the Rafale F4.
Not to mention that Mig 35, F18 B3 and Gripen E all operational by 2019/20, will add new stuff too.

But we can already show F4.1 on the B 308 like we have shown a prototype of the AESA during MMRCA test in advance of the operational equipment. It's no different from what others will be able to show, all the new F4 capabilities have been tested in flight with PEAs, so it is very easy to show, including some prototype equipment: when a new standard is launched, we launch the industrialization of these prototypes and their integration into the aircraft, and the longest thing is to check that there are no regressions and if there are any to eliminate them.

So Rafale has to impress with what it has, while the competition can impress with more new stuff.

Yes, the Rafale will be impressive because it will already have everything that others will present as new.

 

[Sancho]

Yes there is half a dozen HMS which have been integrated on the Rafale...

Why are you distracting with old myths that were proven wrong long ago? It's a simple yes or no question, does the FAF "standard F3R" have HMS yes or no?
If no, the Indian F3R is more advanced than the standard F3R as simple as that and the same goes for the weapons, or EW.

For Talios versus Litening, you choose litening because you have already purchased 184 PODs

Again, IAF would not pay extra for the integration of an inferior system, to just 36 fighters. It might be a convenient justification for you, but IAF is not stupid and since Qatari AF did the same for Sniper, any superiority for Talios is a myth too.

But we can already show F4.1 on the B 308 like we have shown a prototype of the AESA during MMRCA test in advance of the operational equipment.

Rafale came to India with the final AESA, that was one of it's selling points, while the competition only had early prototypes available. That exactly shows how the situation has changed, from being the ready and advanced fighter, to just offer prototype capability, if at all, that was even surpassed by the competition in several fields.

 

[Sancho]

EF at ILA 2018




Aero mod kit (light grey modifications at the wings)
SPEAR 3 (confirmed for 2020)
MARTE ER (speculated for Kuwait)
SPICE 250 (proposed to Germany for 2022)
Recce lite pod (proposed to Germany for 2022)
AARGM (proposed to Germany for 2022)


Gripen E at Farnborough 2018




RBS 15 MK4 (confirmed for Sweden)
AARGM (Sweden reportedly is funding a Growler version)
SPICE 250 (confirmed for Brazil)
Brimstone / SPEAR 3 (proposed by MBDA)

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

No Probe Into Rafale Deal, Supreme Court Dismisses Petition

NEW DELHI: An investigation is not needed into the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets, which is at the heart of a huge government-opposition row, the Supreme Court said today, dismissing petitions. The government had opposed it, questioning the court's expertise to review the Rs. 59,000-crore deal for 36 planes with French firm Dassault. The court has said the pricing details - one of the most controversial aspects of the deal -- would not be debated unless the judges think it should be in public domain. Petitions demanding a court-monitored investigation into the deal were filed after the Congress took up the issue on a war footing, accusing Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his government of corruption and crony capitalism.

No Probe Into Rafale Deal, Supreme Court Dismisses Petition

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Why are you distracting with old myths that were proven wrong long ago? It's a simple yes or no question, does the FAF "standard F3R" have HMS yes or no?
If no, the Indian F3R is more advanced than the standard F3R as simple as that and the same goes for the weapons, or EW.

Finally you are unable to distinguish between the ability of a standard to manage equipment, and the use of this ability by an air force.
For a long time now, the Rafale standards have been able to manage HMS, and that is normal, the HMS seen from the system is no different from a HUD, the interfaces are the same and all the adaptation work is the responsibility of the HMS, but this does not prevent the French air force from not wanting to use this capacity and the Qatari air force from wanting to use it. Moreover, we are delivering a complete 12 Rafale squadron with HMS in Qatar on April 6th and it will be with F3 R.
There is not an Indian F3R there is only one F3R the Indian system will have an other name.
And we are happy with our weapon suite and our EW system, we would not change it for the Indian one. Each country have specific needs and we try to adapt the Rafale weapon system to these needs.

Again, IAF would not pay extra for the integration of an inferior system, to just 36 fighters. It might be a convenient justification for you, but IAF is not stupid and since Qatari AF did the same for Sniper, any superiority for Talios is a myth too.

And if Integration cost less than to buy some Talios PODs?

Rafale came to India with the final AESA, that was one of it's selling points, while the competition only had early prototypes available. That exactly shows how the situation has changed, from being the ready and advanced fighter, to just offer prototype capability, if at all, that was even surpassed by the competition in several fields.

No Rafale came to India with a proyotype of the AESA with americain T/R components and an increase range of 40/50 % compare to PESA instead of a serial product with europeen T/R components and an increase range of 100% compare to PESA. It's very different. The serial product delivery was after Rafale win the tender.

 

[vstol Jockey]

No Probe Into Rafale Deal, Supreme Court Dismisses Petition

NEW DELHI: An investigation is not needed into the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets, which is at the heart of a huge government-opposition row, the Supreme Court said today, dismissing petitions. The government had opposed it, questioning the court's expertise to review the Rs. 59,000-crore deal for 36 planes with French firm Dassault. The court has said the pricing details - one of the most controversial aspects of the deal -- would not be debated unless the judges think it should be in public domain. Petitions demanding a court-monitored investigation into the deal were filed after the Congress took up the issue on a war footing, accusing Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his government of corruption and crony capitalism.

No Probe Into Rafale Deal, Supreme Court Dismisses Petition

I have just one question. Why is your Ex-President not clarifying his remarks? I am sure for every French national the interests of the nation are supreme. Petty politics should never undermine the national interest irrespective of political differences. It was he who with one remark started this chaos in India and damaged the prospects of DA irreparably.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

The MMRCA 2.0 can move very fast now

In 2019 , we will have a Winner

Most likely Rafale

 

[suryakiran]

Aaj Shuklaji ko bahut burnol lagega.

 

[Sancho]

Finally you are unable to distinguish between the ability of a standard to manage equipment, and the use of this ability by an air force.

Lol, I don't have to distinguish because that's not what you claimed! You said, that the F3R is as advanced as the Indian version and since the FAF uses the standard version of the F3R, I asked you simple questions about it. So it's not about different operational requirements, but about how advanced both versions are and the fact that you keep distracting, instead of simply answering says it all.

And if Integration cost less than to buy some Talios PODs?

So now we are changing the arguments? From Talios is superior, but India wanted Litenting for commonality, to the speculation that "Dassault" (who are known for not asking much extra ), suddenly gave a low cost integration? Please.

The serial product delivery was after Rafale win the tender.

The delivery, the one that was tested in India, was also validated for the serial production later. It was not a prototype like Zhuk AE, or the other TD AESAs.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I have just one question. Why is your Ex-President not clarifying his remarks? I am sure for every French national the interests of the nation are supreme. Petty politics should never undermine the national interest irrespective of political differences. It was he who with one remark started this chaos in India and damaged the prospects of DA irreparably.

But he specified what he meant the next day but it wasn't a sensational statement so it was ignored by the media.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Lol, I don't have to distinguish because that's not what you claimed! You said, that the F3R is as advanced as the Indian version and since the FAF uses the standard version of the F3R, I asked you simple questions about it. So it's not about different operational requirements, but about how advanced both versions are and the fact that you keep distracting, instead of simply answering says it all.

Yes you ask me if it is white or Black but in reality it is grey In mathematics, to compare in the way you want to do it, there would have to be a total order relationship between the weapon systems being compared, which is not the case.

So now we are changing the arguments? From Talios is superior, but India wanted Litenting for commonality, to the speculation that "Dassault" (who are know for not asking much extra ), suddenly gave a low cost integration? Please.

The two arguments are not contradictory and complement each other, I maintain both.

The delivery, the one that was tested in India, was also validated for the serial production later. It was not a prototype like Zhuk AE, or the other TD AESAs.

No the prototype was with US components.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

India’s Supreme Court Smashes Aside Storm Over Rafale Deal

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...urt-smashes-aside-storm-over-rafale-deal.html

In fact, in an ironic but not unexpected twist, the ruling government has now pushed for a debate over the Rafale deal in Parliament, possibly to publicly attack the Opposition for ‘wasting’ the country’s and courts’ time with the Rafale allegations.

 

[Sancho]

Yes you ask me if it is white or Black but in reality it is grey

It's soon hard to admit the obvious.

The two arguments are not contradictory and complement each other, I maintain both.

Lol, why bother with truth and facts, when we simply can choose the arguments that suits our points the best right? Alternative facts!

Btw, please post news on the Rafale deal in the Rafale thread

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Moreover, we are delivering a complete 12 Rafale squadron with HMS in Qatar on April 6th and it will be with F3 R.

Not April 6th, February 6th!

 

[randomradio]

The MMRCA 2.0 can move very fast now

In 2019 , we will have a Winner

Most likely Rafale

Only the RFP will be out in 2019. The whole process will take a minimum of 2 or 3 years after the RFP is released.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Only the RFP will be out in 2019. The whole process will take a minimum of 2 or 3 years after the RFP is released.

And so it will be easy to propose F4.2 Based Rafale. 2021 for signature, 2024 for first delivery, software retrofit in 2025.

 

[vstol Jockey]

And so it will be easy to propose F4.2 Based Rafale. 2021 for signature, 2024 for first delivery, software retrofit in 2025.

I want to join Air France after seeing the pic of their latest Chief. How can I do it? LOL.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I want to join Air France after seeing the pic of their latest Chief. How can I do it? LOL.

I hope to present you soon to the Dassault people in charge of the ToT for the 36 Rafale deal. She is a person who in the past worked for Air France in India.....

 

[randomradio]

And so it will be easy to propose F4.2 Based Rafale. 2021 for signature, 2024 for first delivery, software retrofit in 2025.

My estimate:
2019 for RFP
2021 for shortlist
2022 for L1
2023 for contract signature
2027 for first squadron delivery