MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Rajput Lion]

Sure this has been late coming, but French have unlocked Rafale for us unlike they have for any of their other customers. Not only we will have Rafale firing our desi weapons, but we are going to integrate Rafale with both CATS WARRIOR and IUSAV, even before French do it on their Rafale F5 and Neuron NG drone.

So, better late than never I guess

 

[lmaoxd]

The price was Rs 3.25 lakh crore and now Rs 2.5 lakh crore

hmm? so the french were overcharging us or are we not gonna get like that high indegenous content

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

hmm? so the french were overcharging us or are we not gonna get like that high indegenous content

I think it's more the journalists who are talking nonsense: we may know the price at the end of the negotiations, but not at the beginning before Dassault submits its proposal.

 

[Speedster1]

I'd say the Rafale investment would be worth if even if we didn't get source code. We have not built a Western fighter under license since the Jaguar acquisition if the 1980s.

Rafale will introduce Indian companies to the latest digital aerospace mfg best practices including automated drilling, riveting, digital design, etc.

This experience will come in handy when the AMCA comes through in the 2035-40 time frame.

Otoh, the Russian aerospace industry is the midst of a major import substitution drive for CNC machines, etc embargoed by the West.

So, Su-57 license assembly may not be much a step up for HAL in terms of mfg knowhow or assembly line automation.

5th gen ac need much higher mfg tolerances than older gen jets. It'd be interesting what proprietary processes the Russians may have developed.

 

[Professor∆Baaz]

 

[Shan]

Rafale will introduce Indian companies to the latest digital aerospace mfg best practices including automated drilling, riveting, digital design, etc.

Depends on who is involved in the supplier network and to what extent the partnership is allowed to develop (what will be shared). All of the benefits that will be offered need to be absorbed as well. Whether it be mfg practices or skills to be imparted to the workforce (including the m/c used), it all depends on whether the orgs. involved can actively participate with a learning attitude instead of just churning out units. Let's see what happens.

 

[Speedster1]

Depends on who is involved in the supplier network and to what extent the partnership is allowed to develop (what will be shared). All of the benefits that will be offered need to be absorbed as well. Whether it be mfg practices or skills to be imparted to the workforce (including the m/c used), it all depends on whether the orgs. involved can actively participate with a learning attitude instead of just churning out units. Let's see what happens.

We know that TASL will be doing the airframe and given their considerable experience (S-92, Apache and now C-295), they will likely have a shorter learning curve.

Some years ago, they'd partnered with LM on building the F-16 in India. So they must have done their homework on what it would take to succeed.

Plus TASL can draw upon the expertise of the huge Tata Group of companies to make up for skill and execution gaps, if any.

 

[Shan]

We know that TASL will be doing the airframe and given their considerable experience (S-92, Apache and now C-295), they will likely have a shorter learning curve.

Some years ago, they'd partnered with LM on building the F-16 in India. So they must have done their homework on what it would take to succeed.

Plus TASL can draw upon the expertise of the huge Tata Group of companies to make up for skill and execution gaps, if any.

Let us hope so. Considering their network, they should be able to absorb things better than most. However, whether they can successfully break into the FA integration vertical remains to be seen. After all this not a trainer project. One might step further and say that it is a daunting task (if their goal is to enter the fray with their own product line down the road).

 

[Speedster1]

Let us hope so. Considering their network, they should be able to absorb things better than most. However, whether they can successfully break into the FA integration vertical remains to be seen. After all this not a trainer project. One might step further and say that it is a daunting task (if their goal is to enter the fray with their own product line down the road).

Yet they've bid for AMCA DcPP on their own. That speaks volumes about their capabilities.

Even if they take on other partners in future, they will likely handle final assembly and flight testing themselves.

 

[Shan]

Yet they've bid for AMCA DcPP on their own. That speaks volumes about their capabilities.

Even if they take on other partners in future, they will likely handle final assembly and flight testing themselves.

They are capable. I do not doubt their experience. However, it remains to be seen to what extent it aids in their transition to the FA integration. I get where you are coming from. Let's see how things progress.

 

[Ashwin]

Anil Ambani of Reliance Defence has an outstanding debt of $4.3 billion. Is this the same partner that Dassault is moving forward with for Rafale production? You need to either squeeze him out or replace him. Otherwise, this will end in another disaster.

ED attaches Mumbai property worth ₹3,716 crore linked to Anil Ambani

ED attaches Anil Ambani's ₹3,716-crore house 'Abode', raising total asset attachment to ₹15,700 crore in money laundering case.

www.thehindu.com

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Anil Ambani of Reliance Defence has an outstanding debt of $4.3 billion. Is this the same partner that Dassault is moving forward with for Rafale production? You need to either squeeze him out or replace him. Otherwise, this will end in another disaster.

ED attaches Mumbai property worth ₹3,716 crore linked to Anil Ambani

ED attaches Anil Ambani's ₹3,716-crore house 'Abode', raising total asset attachment to ₹15,700 crore in money laundering case.

www.thehindu.com

He will be forced to sell out his stake in DRAL

Or else his legal troubles will get worse

 

[randomradio]

Lots of intersting stuff's been happening lately, so I'm here for a while to drop in my 2 paisas..

The new Rafale deal is even better than I had hoped.

Preliminary reports said it will consist of 80 F4s and 24 F5s. Considering that's right, and the previous jets are also upgraded to F4 standards, we will get a total of 126 F4s. This is the same as the original MMRCA. It means, the IAF gets to have a full complement of 21 jets per squadrons. Even at 20 and 90% availability, they can maintain a fleet of 18 available jets. The IAF can then lose 2 jets and still maintain 100% combat effectiveness at the squadron level. To put that into perspective, the USAF needs 24 jets to ensure they have 16 available, so it's a big deal. Comparatively, the MKI squadrons had an availability rate of just 12 and only recently improved to 14.

Anyway, with 126 F4s in the bag, we will only be buying 1 squadron of F5, so we are very likely to see a massive boost in options. I'm expecting a minimum of 3 more squadrons. Can it climb to 6? Probably depends on the timely inductions of LCA Mk2.

As expected, the navy is going for 31 new jets, probably, presumably F5s. By pushing up to 3 squadrons, they are attempting to de-risk TEDBF while also ensuring quicker clearance of the first flattop carrier. Vikramaditya's gonna be around until the late 2050s, alongside IAC-1 and 2. We need at least 40 more jets apart from Mig-29Ks and 57 Rafales. Of course, 40 more to replace the Mig-29Ks too. So 80 TEDBFs are guaranteed as of today.

 

[randomradio]

The price was Rs 3.25 lakh crore and now Rs 2.5 lakh crore

Apparently, 3.6LC for multiple programs, including P-8I, overhaul of armored vehicles etc. And 2.7LC for Rafale.

I guess 25B euros.

 

[randomradio]

Based on the contract in 2016, each jet comes up to €91.7M and €30M for weapons package and spares, for a total of €122M per jet. Assume we add 2 more bases, that's €1.7, like before. For 114 jets that comes up to roughly €16B. Simply add 50% extra to make up for new technologies and inflation and we get €24B.

So this is my estimated contract price. It's roughly 2.6 LC.

It's unlikely to exceed this cost based on the previous contract. I'm sure some of the inflation will be discounted, but will be made up with another ISE contract.

 

[randomradio]

Signature March 2027 , with first off the shelf delivery in 2030..
Why not go for F5 entirely.

Some of the F5 technologies may find their way into our jets, but we haven't tested it to go for it right off the bat. The option was always stopgap F4s and then manufacture F5s. But this contract is better, we reduce direct import by half and get some more jets in the process than before. IAF decided to go for proven tech in large numbers.

I'm hoping the GaN EW suite makes it in at the bare minimum. The radar will require a new engine.

 

[Amarante]

@randomradio: welcome back!

 

[randomradio]

It wasn't us who asked, it was you: you were determined not to ask for Rafale anymore because they were too expensive, and you organized the MRFA, which was initially for single-engine aircraft, so that you could be sure you wouldn't take the Rafale again, and now you're asking for them again. There must be a reason, right?

The Gripen vs F-16 contest was independent from MRFA.

They were invited to MRFA after canceling that contest in lieu of LCA Mk2.

As I had stated long ago, the two contests were 200 SE MII and 200 TE MII. SE MII became Mk2 and TE MII is now this Rafale contract. FGFA was also a requirement back then along with AMCA.

Then we postponed FGFA and ordered 97 additional LCA Mk1A.

FGFA turned into a small contract for 63, license production of 144 MKIzed jets, or a repeat of the FGFA program for 144+twin-seat. It seems they are fine with 36-40 jets now (with 97 for MK1A).

Overall we are talking about 750-800 new jets for the IAF and about 150 for the IN.

 

[AllStirFry]

The Gripen vs F-16 contest was independent from MRFA.

They were invited to MRFA after canceling that contest in lieu of LCA Mk2.

As I had stated long ago, the two contests were 200 SE MII and 200 TE MII. SE MII became Mk2 and TE MII is now this Rafale contract. FGFA was also a requirement back then along with AMCA.

Then we postponed FGFA and ordered 97 additional LCA Mk1A.

FGFA turned into a small contract for 63, license production of 144 MKIzed jets, or a repeat of the FGFA program for 144+twin-seat. It seems they are fine with 36-40 jets now (with 97 for MK1A).

Overall we are talking about 750-800 new jets for the IAF and about 150 for the IN.

Welcome back!!, glad to see you posting again!!
@Anonymous .... I am sure you missed RandomRadio....and welcome him back!

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The Gripen vs F-16 contest was independent from MRFA.

They were invited to MRFA after canceling that contest in lieu of LCA Mk2.

As I had stated long ago, the two contests were 200 SE MII and 200 TE MII. SE MII became Mk2 and TE MII is now this Rafale contract. FGFA was also a requirement back then along with AMCA.

Then we postponed FGFA and ordered 97 additional LCA Mk1A.

FGFA turned into a small contract for 63, license production of 144 MKIzed jets, or a repeat of the FGFA program for 144+twin-seat. It seems they are fine with 36-40 jets now (with 97 for MK1A).

Overall we are talking about 750-800 new jets for the IAF and about 150 for the IN.

Happy to see you again!