MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Planning

F4.1: qualified in 2023, operational in 2024

F4.2: qualification at the end of 2025, operational in 2026

F4.3: qualification in 2026, operational in 2027

F5.1: from 2030, qualification in 2031, operational in 2032

F5.2: qualification in 2032, operational in 2033, full capacity in 2035 (with UCAS drone)

UCAS drone: first flight before 2033, qualified in 2034, operational in 2035

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Eight years ago, the IAF stated the following:

"The IAF wants the acquisition procedure for acquiring the new aircraft to be completed in the shortest possible time and that will be possible only if they are allowed to go for a government-to-government deal with a foreign country.

Even a G2G deal would take four years for the first plane to be delivered, and this would be the only way to end the vicious circle of delays," government sources told Mail Today.

"If the government decides to buy planes through a tender route, it would take a minimum of eight to nine years as at least five years would be required to select a vendor, and then another three would be required for the delivery,"

 

[lmaoxd]

Planning

F4.1: qualified in 2023, operational in 2024

F4.2: qualification at the end of 2025, operational in 2026

F4.3: qualification in 2026, operational in 2027

F5.1: from 2030, qualification in 2031, operational in 2032

F5.2: qualification in 2032, operational in 2033, full capacity in 2035 (with UCAS drone)

UCAS drone: first flight before 2033, qualified in 2034, operational in 2035

@Picdelamirand-oil:
Is the f4 upgradeable to the F5 standard or will that have to be a new airframe.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

@Picdelamirand-oil:
Is the f4 upgradeable to the F5 standard or will that have to be a new airframe.

It is always possible to upgrade an aircraft if you are willing to pay the price. For example, France produced 10 Rafales at the start of the programme, which were not actual production aircraft, to urgently replace old Crusader aircraft in order to protect its remaining aircraft carrier before it was replaced by the CDG. Upgrading these aircraft was a major operation that required completely dismantling the aircraft, equipping it with new wiring and cooling systems, and changing a lot of equipment. However, series production had begun and the navy was receiving about one aircraft per month, so it put the pre-production aircraft into storage and they were upgraded much later, at a time when France no longer wished to receive new aircraft for budgetary reasons. In terms of the cost of the upgrade, it can be estimated that three aircraft could be upgraded for the price of one Rafale, but as these early Rafales had only flown for a short time, the Navy considered it worthwhile. The old aircraft that France received before 2015 will not be upgraded to F5, they will be limited to F4.3. For the others, each Navy will decide.

 

[lmaoxd]

It is always possible to upgrade an aircraft if you are willing to pay the price. For example, France produced 10 Rafales at the start of the programme, which were not actual production aircraft, to urgently replace old Crusader aircraft in order to protect its remaining aircraft carrier before it was replaced by the CDG. Upgrading these aircraft was a major operation that required completely dismantling the aircraft, equipping it with new wiring and cooling systems, and changing a lot of equipment. However, series production had begun and the navy was receiving about one aircraft per month, so it put the pre-production aircraft into storage and they were upgraded much later, at a time when France no longer wished to receive new aircraft for budgetary reasons. In terms of the cost of the upgrade, it can be estimated that three aircraft could be upgraded for the price of one Rafale, but as these early Rafales had only flown for a short time, the Navy considered it worthwhile. The old aircraft that France received before 2015 will not be upgraded to F5, they will be limited to F4.3. For the others, each Navy will decide.

how about the indian F3Rs and the f4s if the MMRCA deal is singed

 

[Bon Plan]

how about the indian F3Rs and the f4s if the MMRCA deal is singed

The french true F3 will be upgraded to F4.
As F3R is the latest F3 available, it is possible.

 

[Ashwin]

Defence Ministry to discuss Rs 3.25 lakh crore 114 Rafale fighter jet deal this week​

In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France which would be manufactured in India with indigenous content of around 30 per cent at a high level meeting of the Defence Ministry.

New Delhi, January 13 (ANI): In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France, which would be manufactured in India with an indigenous content of around 30 per cent, at a high-level meeting of the Defence Ministry this week.

Top Defence sources told ANI that as per the proposal, the deal would also include around 12-18 Rafale jets to be acquired by the Indian Air Force in fly-away condition.

As per the proposal to be taken up for discussion at a high-level Defence Ministry meeting scheduled to be held in the next two to three days, the Indian side is also asking France to enable the integration of Indian weapons and other indigenous systems into the French aircraft under the government-to-government deal, they said.

The source codes will remain with the French side only.

Interestingly, India is moving ahead with the deal with France when both the United States of America and Russia have offered their fifth-generation fighters, including the F-35 and the Su-57, respectively, to the Indian Air Force.

The indigenous content in the aircraft would be around 30 per cent only. Generally, the indigenous content required in Make in India deals is around 50-60 per cent.

If approved, this would be India's largest-ever defence deal and would take the number of Rafale jets in the Indian military to 176, as the Indian Air Force already has 36 of them, while the Indian Navy placed orders for 26 of them last year.

"The Statement of Case (SoC) or the proposal for the 114 Rafale jets prepared by the Indian Air Force was received by the Defence Ministry a few months ago. Once approved by the Defence Ministry, the proposal will have to be given final clearance by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

The move to take the proposal forward came soon after the Rafale performed very well against Pakistan in Operation Sindoor, where it managed to comprehensively beat the Chinese PL-15 air-to-air missiles using its Spectra Electronic Warfare suite. The indigenous content in the Made in India Rafale fighter jets is expected to be more than 60 per cent.

The French side is also planning to set up a maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for the M-88 engines, which are used by Rafale jets in Hyderabad. The French firm Dassault has already set up a firm to look after the maintenance of French-origin fighter jets.

Indian aerospace firms such as Tata are also likely to be part of the manufacturing.

India has an urgent need to induct fighter jets to address the growing threat perception in the region. The IAF's fighter jet force structure is expected to be primarily comprised of the Su-30 MKIs, Rafales, and indigenous fighter jet projects. India has already ordered 180 LCA Mark 1A jets and also has plans to induct the indigenous fifth-generation fighter in large numbers beyond 2035. (ANI)

 

[redpanda]

Defence Ministry to discuss Rs 3.25 lakh crore 114 Rafale fighter jet deal this week​

In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France which would be manufactured in India with indigenous content of around 30 per cent at a high level meeting of the Defence Ministry.

New Delhi, January 13 (ANI): In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France, which would be manufactured in India with an indigenous content of around 30 per cent, at a high-level meeting of the Defence Ministry this week.

Top Defence sources told ANI that as per the proposal, the deal would also include around 12-18 Rafale jets to be acquired by the Indian Air Force in fly-away condition.

As per the proposal to be taken up for discussion at a high-level Defence Ministry meeting scheduled to be held in the next two to three days, the Indian side is also asking France to enable the integration of Indian weapons and other indigenous systems into the French aircraft under the government-to-government deal, they said.

The source codes will remain with the French side only.

Interestingly, India is moving ahead with the deal with France when both the United States of America and Russia have offered their fifth-generation fighters, including the F-35 and the Su-57, respectively, to the Indian Air Force.

The indigenous content in the aircraft would be around 30 per cent only. Generally, the indigenous content required in Make in India deals is around 50-60 per cent.

If approved, this would be India's largest-ever defence deal and would take the number of Rafale jets in the Indian military to 176, as the Indian Air Force already has 36 of them, while the Indian Navy placed orders for 26 of them last year.

"The Statement of Case (SoC) or the proposal for the 114 Rafale jets prepared by the Indian Air Force was received by the Defence Ministry a few months ago. Once approved by the Defence Ministry, the proposal will have to be given final clearance by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

The move to take the proposal forward came soon after the Rafale performed very well against Pakistan in Operation Sindoor, where it managed to comprehensively beat the Chinese PL-15 air-to-air missiles using its Spectra Electronic Warfare suite. The indigenous content in the Made in India Rafale fighter jets is expected to be more than 60 per cent.

The French side is also planning to set up a maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for the M-88 engines, which are used by Rafale jets in Hyderabad. The French firm Dassault has already set up a firm to look after the maintenance of French-origin fighter jets.

Indian aerospace firms such as Tata are also likely to be part of the manufacturing.

India has an urgent need to induct fighter jets to address the growing threat perception in the region. The IAF's fighter jet force structure is expected to be primarily comprised of the Su-30 MKIs, Rafales, and indigenous fighter jet projects. India has already ordered 180 LCA Mark 1A jets and also has plans to induct the indigenous fifth-generation fighter in large numbers beyond 2035. (ANI)

When are these jets going to arrive if the deal gets signed this FY? By 2033-34?

Also my question is how will this impact our other projects? Although personally I think the impact will be minimal.

 

[Rune]

When are these jets going to arrive if the deal gets signed this FY? By 2033-34?

We should start receiving them in 3-4 years of deal signing.

Also my question is how will this impact our other projects? Although personally I think the impact will be minimal.

Only other fighter programs to conclude this decade will be the Su-30 MLU and possibly 3-4 squadrons of Su-57. LCA Mk-2 and AMCA will happen next decade.

 

[Hydra]

Defence Ministry to discuss Rs 3.25 lakh crore 114 Rafale fighter jet deal this week​

In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France which would be manufactured in India with indigenous content of around 30 per cent at a high level meeting of the Defence Ministry.

New Delhi, January 13 (ANI): In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France, which would be manufactured in India with an indigenous content of around 30 per cent, at a high-level meeting of the Defence Ministry this week.

Top Defence sources told ANI that as per the proposal, the deal would also include around 12-18 Rafale jets to be acquired by the Indian Air Force in fly-away condition.

As per the proposal to be taken up for discussion at a high-level Defence Ministry meeting scheduled to be held in the next two to three days, the Indian side is also asking France to enable the integration of Indian weapons and other indigenous systems into the French aircraft under the government-to-government deal, they said.

The source codes will remain with the French side only.

Interestingly, India is moving ahead with the deal with France when both the United States of America and Russia have offered their fifth-generation fighters, including the F-35 and the Su-57, respectively, to the Indian Air Force.

The indigenous content in the aircraft would be around 30 per cent only. Generally, the indigenous content required in Make in India deals is around 50-60 per cent.

If approved, this would be India's largest-ever defence deal and would take the number of Rafale jets in the Indian military to 176, as the Indian Air Force already has 36 of them, while the Indian Navy placed orders for 26 of them last year.

"The Statement of Case (SoC) or the proposal for the 114 Rafale jets prepared by the Indian Air Force was received by the Defence Ministry a few months ago. Once approved by the Defence Ministry, the proposal will have to be given final clearance by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

The move to take the proposal forward came soon after the Rafale performed very well against Pakistan in Operation Sindoor, where it managed to comprehensively beat the Chinese PL-15 air-to-air missiles using its Spectra Electronic Warfare suite. The indigenous content in the Made in India Rafale fighter jets is expected to be more than 60 per cent.

The French side is also planning to set up a maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for the M-88 engines, which are used by Rafale jets in Hyderabad. The French firm Dassault has already set up a firm to look after the maintenance of French-origin fighter jets.

Indian aerospace firms such as Tata are also likely to be part of the manufacturing.

India has an urgent need to induct fighter jets to address the growing threat perception in the region. The IAF's fighter jet force structure is expected to be primarily comprised of the Su-30 MKIs, Rafales, and indigenous fighter jet projects. India has already ordered 180 LCA Mark 1A jets and also has plans to induct the indigenous fifth-generation fighter in large numbers beyond 2035. (ANI)

What only 30% indigenous content and no source code? Are we gone insane?

 

[South block]

What only 30% indigenous content and no source code? Are we gone insane?

What other options do you have ?...... Say the French gleefully

 

[Fatalis]

New Delhi, January 13 (ANI): In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France, which would be manufactured in India with an indigenous content of around 30 per cent, at a high-level meeting of the Defence Ministry this week.

The indigenous content in the Made in India Rafale fighter jets is expected to be more than 60 per cent.

30 or 60?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Defence Ministry to discuss Rs 3.25 lakh crore 114 Rafale fighter jet deal this week​

In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France which would be manufactured in India with indigenous content of around 30 per cent at a high level meeting of the Defence Ministry.

New Delhi, January 13 (ANI): In a significant development, India is going to take up the around Rs 3.25 lakh crore deal for buying 114 Rafale fighter jets from France, which would be manufactured in India with an indigenous content of around 30 per cent, at a high-level meeting of the Defence Ministry this week.

Top Defence sources told ANI that as per the proposal, the deal would also include around 12-18 Rafale jets to be acquired by the Indian Air Force in fly-away condition.

As per the proposal to be taken up for discussion at a high-level Defence Ministry meeting scheduled to be held in the next two to three days, the Indian side is also asking France to enable the integration of Indian weapons and other indigenous systems into the French aircraft under the government-to-government deal, they said.

The source codes will remain with the French side only.

Interestingly, India is moving ahead with the deal with France when both the United States of America and Russia have offered their fifth-generation fighters, including the F-35 and the Su-57, respectively, to the Indian Air Force.

The indigenous content in the aircraft would be around 30 per cent only. Generally, the indigenous content required in Make in India deals is around 50-60 per cent.

If approved, this would be India's largest-ever defence deal and would take the number of Rafale jets in the Indian military to 176, as the Indian Air Force already has 36 of them, while the Indian Navy placed orders for 26 of them last year.

"The Statement of Case (SoC) or the proposal for the 114 Rafale jets prepared by the Indian Air Force was received by the Defence Ministry a few months ago. Once approved by the Defence Ministry, the proposal will have to be given final clearance by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

The move to take the proposal forward came soon after the Rafale performed very well against Pakistan in Operation Sindoor, where it managed to comprehensively beat the Chinese PL-15 air-to-air missiles using its Spectra Electronic Warfare suite. The indigenous content in the Made in India Rafale fighter jets is expected to be more than 60 per cent.

The French side is also planning to set up a maintenance, repair and overhaul facility for the M-88 engines, which are used by Rafale jets in Hyderabad. The French firm Dassault has already set up a firm to look after the maintenance of French-origin fighter jets.

Indian aerospace firms such as Tata are also likely to be part of the manufacturing.

India has an urgent need to induct fighter jets to address the growing threat perception in the region. The IAF's fighter jet force structure is expected to be primarily comprised of the Su-30 MKIs, Rafales, and indigenous fighter jet projects. India has already ordered 180 LCA Mark 1A jets and also has plans to induct the indigenous fifth-generation fighter in large numbers beyond 2035. (ANI)

Here, we are clearly changing status: we are no longer dealing with rumors or even “weak signals,” but with a formal Indian administrative process. And in India, such processes are never initiated lightly. There are a few key points to note in this ANI article.

First, the fact that the Ministry of Defense is reviewing the proposal this week is decisive. In India, a SoC (Statement of Case) at this level is not put on the agenda unless the dossier has already been extensively pre-negotiated politically and technically. This type of meeting is less about “discovering” a project than about validating a trajectory before it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). In other words, the core of the compromise already exists.

Next, the structure of the agreement is very revealing.

• 114 aircraft in total,
• of which 12 to 18 will be delivered fly-away,
• the rest manufactured in India,
• with local content announced at 30%... then corrected further to >60%.

This apparent contradiction is not a journalistic error: it most likely reflects two levels of calculation. The 30% corresponds to the immediate content that can be contracted at the start (structures, assembly, subsystems), while the >60% includes ramp-up, heavy MRO, parts manufacturing, tooling, and above all the duration of the program. This is exactly the Indian logic: accept a lower entry point, provided that the industrial trajectory is locked in.

The issue of integrating Indian weapons is also crucial. India is not asking for the source codes (and explicitly accepts that they remain French), but is demanding the necessary openness to integrate its own systems. This is a red line that very few Western aircraft have crossed, and it confirms what you said earlier: the Rafale is being treated as an Indian platform to be customized, not as a fixed product.
The passage on the implicit rejection of the F-35 and Su-57 is also very telling. This is not an ideological stance, it is a cold calculation:

the F-35 is too politically and logistically restrictive, the Su-57 is technologically immature and industrially risky, while the Rafale is combat-proven, mastered, and above all, integrable into a strategy of gradual sovereignty.

The mention of Operation Sindoor and SPECTRA's performance against the PL-15 is also significant. The Indians never cite operational RETEX in a document of this level without reason. It is an internal message: this is not a prestige purchase, it is an operational decision.
Finally, the MRO M88 component in Hyderabad is perhaps the most strategic point of all. Local engine maintenance capability is not an offset, it is a sovereign air power generation capability. From this point on, we are no longer talking about a customer, but a very long-term partner.

In summary:

• the dossier has entered the irreversible phase of the Indian process,
• the structure of the agreement corresponds exactly to the rejection a year ago (too little work for India),
• Indian doctrinal requirements (national weapons, local MCO, upgrade) are integrated,
• and the political timetable (February, Macron's visit) is becoming perfectly credible.

If everything goes as usual in India, the question is no longer “if” the contract will be signed, but “how it will be sequenced” (framework agreement, tranches, options). And at this stage, we are already well beyond a simple purchase of 114 aircraft: we are facing the establishment of an Indo-French air pillar for several decades.

 

[CATS @hunter]

At this price, the orange man will personally deliver F-35 to you,

36$ billion dollars for 114 jets
Comes with 30% IC
Only the later variants comes with F5 variants,

36$ billion for 4.5th gen jets,
And nobody has issues with it,
How are they going to fund AMCA, MK2, cats warrior, Ghatak

 

[jmaxwell_]

 

[Hydra]

At this price, the orange man will personally deliver F-35 to you,

36$ billion dollars for 114 jets
Comes with 30% IC
Only the later variants comes with F5 variants,

36$ billion for 4.5th gen jets,
And nobody has issues with it,
How are they going to fund AMCA, MK2, cats warrior, Ghatak

Its insane if we aren't getting source code, and stupid if the content is nere 30%.
Op sindoor is a success only because we able to mate MKI & Jaguar with the eeaoon of our choice. I don't think frenc will allow lora or rampage on Rafale.

 

[Ginvincible]

At this price, the orange man will personally deliver F-35 to you,

36$ billion dollars for 114 jets
Comes with 30% IC
Only the later variants comes with F5 variants,

36$ billion for 4.5th gen jets,
And nobody has issues with it,
How are they going to fund AMCA, MK2, cats warrior, Ghatak

to be fair this is the best India can do. India won't go to USA for jets, and Russia will not be a reliable partner with their war going on (risks caasta too) so Europe is basically the only option. No point worrying about other domestic programs. India lacks the ability to mass produce amca, mk2, cats, ghatak, etc and has never been serious on investing in local aerospace capabilities anyways, so realistically no point worrying about funding them. Make some announcement in a few years about how a few million dollars will be spent developing local technologies to placate the defense nerds.

IAF needs squadron strength, we all know it. Better to just swallow the pill and move forward.

 

[Saaho]

@randomradio This is why I hate Indian south wing. They could have :

Made EXACTLY same deal in 2012-15, WITH SOURCE CODES! But NOOOOOOOOO, Make it in India and provide guaranty. What a bunch of jokers!

In 2009-2012, France was WAY more than happy to part with its source code because it had to sell its jets. Not anymore.

India Babus made deal impossible!

Same with jet engines from USA. They had 20 years to stock pile on jet engines but NOOOOOO! We wuz intelligenze! We wuz buy engines as we need.

Seriously, They should allow Adani to operate our airforce directly and let them make purchase decisions. Indian beaurocrats are not worth the salt they eat.

 

[Saaho]

to be fair this is the best India can do. India won't go to USA for jets, and Russia will not be a reliable partner with their war going on (risks caasta too) so Europe is basically the only option. No point worrying about other domestic programs. India lacks the ability to mass produce amca, mk2, cats, ghatak, etc and has never been serious on investing in local aerospace capabilities anyways, so realistically no point worrying about funding them. Make some announcement in a few years about how a few million dollars will be spent developing local technologies to placate the defense nerds.

IAF needs squadron strength, we all know it. Better to just swallow the pill and move forward.

No. India is an idiotic country. In 2009-12 they could have signed the deal but they wanted to do entire song and dance of selecting the jets. Airforce in 2002 wanted more Mirages. The Baboos took till 2004 or 5 to launch the stupid MMRCA competiton. And wound it up in 2012 by selecting Rafale. Then for god knows why they keep on insisting Guarentee on "Shit in India" Rafale jets by HAL. And then they sculted the entire deal. In 2012-14 we had MUCH better deal. It included

Source code
All 124 or so jets

And what not. Plus priority delivery.

Now we got the same deal. For much higher price (285 million USD per jet). And no source code. LOL!

We should line up entire south block and shoot them.

 

[Subgradewalker]

No. India is an idiotic country. In 2009-12 they could have signed the deal but they wanted to do entire song and dance of selecting the jets. Airforce in 2002 wanted more Mirages. The Baboos took till 2004 or 5 to launch the stupid MMRCA competiton. And wound it up in 2012 by selecting Rafale. Then for god knows why they keep on insisting Guarentee on "Shit in India" Rafale jets by HAL. And then they sculted the entire deal. In 2012-14 we had MUCH better deal. It included

Source code
All 124 or so jets

And what not. Plus priority delivery.

Now we got the same deal. For much higher price (285 million USD per jet). And no source code. LOL!

We should line up entire south block and shoot them.

Bruh.

There was no way any big deal was possible in the climate of 2009-2015. It was due to one after another scandal being unearthed. Then defense minister, A.K Anthony was known for maintaining image of Good boy. He was more than happy to delay deals of it meant political safety from allegations.

Imagine, if there's so much drama about this deal over price in a situation where we can afford the money but not gaps. Back then, it would be a death knell for careers of anyone who signed on such a deal.

And that's notwithstanding the technical, logistical, industrial aspects of the deal then vs now.