MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[babablacksheep]

The only 5 th gen program India can join is the Su 57 so that will be adding yet another aircraft to the zoo that is the IAF inventory.

For future non stealth fleet:- Su30mki, tejas, tejas mk2, rafale.

(Heavy, twin engine medium, single engine medium, light.)

Stealth:- amca ( maybe su57).

Seems decent for a large airforce.




Like USAF has,
f16,f15 for non stealth.
Then f35, and f22 for Stealth.
Then there's f-47 in development.
Also b2 bomber,b52, b1( while not fighters but they do add variety)
Future b21.

 

[screambowl]

We can handle Pakistani threat with whatever we have right now in our arsenal and for the Chinese, even 114 Rafales would be insufficient (ignoring geopolitical and geographical constraints). Our focus IMO should be on getting 36-54 Rafales to close this MRFA saga and solidify our advantage over Pakistanis and transfer Tejas Mk2 and AMCA projects to PMO for oversight. Aim to induct them as quickly as possible. GoI and IAF missed the bus, as always. Tejas Mk2 should have been in mass production right now with AMCA in testing.

Threat can be handled, but it is not just about handling the threat. In case you go in hold their territory then you need resources to continue holding the territory and employ AA until some diplomatic agreement of cease fire is not signed. For that the strength has to be high. You gain territory, you need to deploy immediately. Area of Op increases.

 

[Shan]

Nitin Gokhale's take on things:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1966541354789716316

 

[FalconSlayers]

Nitin Gokhale's take on things:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1966541354789716316

The solution that comes to my mind is more Su-30 MKI squadrons since the last 12 are on order and under production (and are BrahMos capable), 4 squadrons of Rafale being directly imported, and more LCA Mk-1A on top of the 180 ordered until Mk-2 gets ready for mass production.

Don't know what capability IAF thinks Rafales will add when you can't fire own weapons, has smaller GaAs radar and somehow even lacks Meteor, and is ultra-expensive, and forces you to import more unnecessary weapons for it, and modifying it for own use.

IAF with all due respect in my opinion should come out of their "deep strike" mission thingy, they largely did nothing special during Op Sindoor which couldn't have been done through surface to surface BrahMos missiles as almost all the targets they were stationary and fixed. They should largely focus on air to air combat and achieve air superiority mostly by that way, leave "hitting airbases to gain air superiority" to TEL-launched Pinaka, Pralay and BrahMos. After which they can freely do bombing runs with much cheaper and abundant laser-guided and glide bombs instead of firing the same missiles as fired from ground while risking the airframes along with it as well.

Only deep strikes with expensive stand-off munitions they should do is for mobile targets that can't be hit easily by surface to surface weapons, like they did with the NG-MMCC at Nur Khan, or targets way far away that need BrahMos/SCALP. It also blows up the element of surprise as well as a fully armed fighter jet with those missiles would glow up on Radars from far away than individual surface to surface missiles giving less reaction time to enemy, while not risking expensive airframes.

In such a scenario Super Sukhoi upgraded Flankers are much desirable over Rafales in air to air combat.

 

[Shan]

The solution that comes to my mind is more Su-30 MKI squadrons since the last 12 are on order and under production (and are BrahMos capable), 4 squadrons of Rafale being directly imported, and more LCA Mk-1A on top of the 180 ordered until Mk-2 gets ready for mass production.

Don't know what capability IAF thinks Rafales will add when you can't fire own weapons, has smaller GaAs radar and somehow even lacks Meteor, and is ultra-expensive, and forces you to import more unnecessary weapons for it, and modifying it for own use.

IAF with all due respect in my opinion should come out of their "deep strike" mission thingy, they largely did nothing special during Op Sindoor which couldn't have been done through surface to surface BrahMos missiles as almost all the targets they were stationary and fixed. They should largely focus on air to air combat and achieve air superiority mostly by that way, leave "hitting airbases to gain air superiority" to TEL-launched Pinaka, Pralay and BrahMos. After which they can freely do bombing runs with much cheaper and abundant laser-guided and glide bombs instead of firing the same missiles as fired from ground while risking the airframes along with it as well.

Only deep strikes with expensive stand-off munitions they should do is for mobile targets that can't be hit easily by surface to surface weapons, like they did with the NG-MMCC at Nur Khan, or targets way far away that need BrahMos/SCALP. It also blows up the element of surprise as well as a fully armed fighter jet with those missiles would glow up on Radars from far away than individual surface to surface missiles giving less reaction time to enemy, while not risking expensive airframes.

In such a scenario Super Sukhoi upgraded Flankers are much desirable over Rafales in air to air combat.

Good take. I will present some counter points to present the other side of things.

Mk1A delivery rates remain meagre. There is still no concrete timelines for deliveries due to engines. Mk2 is yet to take its first flight. A platform that is again dependent on engine delivery and robust SCNs. Su-30 MKI is indeed a versatile platform and Nashik is set to roll them out. However, the FA is aging and will hit a ceiling sooner rather than later. It was introduced to the IAF in late 90s.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The solution that comes to my mind is more Su-30 MKI squadrons since the last 12 are on order and under production (and are BrahMos capable), 4 squadrons of Rafale being directly imported, and more LCA Mk-1A on top of the 180 ordered until Mk-2 gets ready for mass production.

Don't know what capability IAF thinks Rafales will add when you can't fire own weapons, has smaller GaAs radar and somehow even lacks Meteor, and is ultra-expensive, and forces you to import more unnecessary weapons for it, and modifying it for own use.

IAF with all due respect in my opinion should come out of their "deep strike" mission thingy, they largely did nothing special during Op Sindoor which couldn't have been done through surface to surface BrahMos missiles as almost all the targets they were stationary and fixed. They should largely focus on air to air combat and achieve air superiority mostly by that way, leave "hitting airbases to gain air superiority" to TEL-launched Pinaka, Pralay and BrahMos. After which they can freely do bombing runs with much cheaper and abundant laser-guided and glide bombs instead of firing the same missiles as fired from ground while risking the airframes along with it as well.

Only deep strikes with expensive stand-off munitions they should do is for mobile targets that can't be hit easily by surface to surface weapons, like they did with the NG-MMCC at Nur Khan, or targets way far away that need BrahMos/SCALP. It also blows up the element of surprise as well as a fully armed fighter jet with those missiles would glow up on Radars from far away than individual surface to surface missiles giving less reaction time to enemy, while not risking expensive airframes.

In such a scenario Super Sukhoi upgraded Flankers are much desirable over Rafales in air to air combat.

Rafales are primarily meant for the northern front. And we aren't going to get either the Rafales or the Su-57 before 2030 at all or in substantial numbers which renders induction of them moot any time after 2030.

Neither are the MKIs with Super Sukhoi upgrades going to be ready then & the delivery schedule of the Mk-1a is such that as on date we don't know how many will be available by 2030 .

Otherwise it can be useful as a sniper , the equivalent of our Gnats hiding in the valleys of the Himalayas to ambush bigger FAs of the PLAAF.

In any case Mk-2 & both variants of the AMCA were due in the 2030s. In other words we'd be shutting the door after the horse has bolted.

Makes more sense to establish the IRF pronto , get more regiments of the S-400 & S-500 since the Kusha SAMs won't make an appearance before 2030 , work furiously to upgrade the IACCS , establish a constellation of SBS of as many satellites as possible , upgradation of cyber defence & offensive capabilities , expedite the procurement & execution of our AEWs & Refuellers such that we get at least the Netra Mk-1a by 2030 & as many of the Mk-2 as possible .

Apart from this go the whole hog on building a massive inventory of SAMs , BMs , CMs , Hypersonic Missiles , LMs , Drones , other ammo like TBMs , Rockets - guided & unguided , 155 mm shells etc besides ensuring we have wartime mfg capabilities & capacities .

I'd leave out secret works like tunneling thru mountains to establish posts , storage depots etc assuming they're being undertaken though we aren't aware of the actual nature of their work & the extent to which the IA relies on these networks for obvious reasons.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Rafales are primarily meant for the northern front. And we aren't going to get either the Rafales or the Su-57 before 2030 at all or in substantial numbers which renders induction of them moot any time after 2030.

Neither are the MKIs with Super Sukhoi upgrades going to be ready then & the delivery schedule of the Mk-1a is such that as on date we don't know how many will be available by 2030 .

Otherwise it can be useful as a sniper , the equivalent of our Gnats hiding in the valleys of the Himalayas to ambush bigger FAs of the PLAAF.

In any case Mk-2 & both variants of the AMCA were due in the 2030s. In other words we'd be shutting the door after the horse has bolted.

Makes more sense to establish the IRF pronto , get more regiments of the S-400 & S-500 since the Kusha SAMs won't make an appearance before 2030 , work furiously to upgrade the IACCS , establish a constellation of SBS of as many satellites as possible , upgradation of cyber defence & offensive capabilities , expedite the procurement & execution of our AEWs & Refuellers such that we get at least the Netra Mk-1a by 2030 & as many of the Mk-2 as possible .

Apart from this go the whole hog on building a massive inventory of SAMs , BMs , CMs , Hypersonic Missiles , LMs , Drones , other ammo like TBMs , Rockets - guided & unguided , 155 mm shells etc besides ensuring we have wartime mfg capabilities & capacities .

I'd leave out secret works like tunneling thru mountains to establish posts , storage depots etc assuming they're being undertaken though we aren't aware of the actual nature of their work & the extent to which the IA relies on these networks for obvious reasons.

Also expanding the inventory of available spares massively. Realisitcally, we are at a moment where forces' inventory should effectively be ready for a war of attrition at any given time. If that requires opening spares manufacturing to MSMEs to hedge against DPSUs.. so be it.

 

[Hydra]

That is a very myopic take which ignores the future. IAF will reap significant dividends if it helps GoI and defence industry in developing aeronautics ecosystem in India, just like the navy is reaping right now. It will have lower acquisition costs, easier maintenance, right to integrate any weapon it desires, modify or upgrade the aircraft in any way it wants, free of any diplomatic arm-twisting, among others. Saying that IAF has no role to play in development of aeronautical ecosystem in India is way off the mark. It is the only customer for such systems and its participation is critical.

Why to make force a scape goat for industry development? If you want to develop industry, develop the domestic industry first. No country had become industry power house by investing only on weapon industry.

 

[Hydra]

I don't think we should get into if rafael are good or not. The forces with this proposal has clearly shown their confidence in it. And no amount of keyboard warriors can have better understanding of IAFs assets then IAF themselves.

And one is mistaken to think that given the propoganda machinery of ISI, CHINA and Indian left.. it wouldn't have blown up the issue of any fault with rafael. The fact that all they could do was cast doubts by citing each other, debunked images and sources of planes downed coming from "pakistan", which some morons take as truth for political potshots.. even after that it couldnt provide anything substantial. And no sir, our armed forces aren't called toughest customers for no reason. Even the worst system in inventory inducted have been proven to have edge over historical adversary when in IAFs hand. And forces will never spend this much sum for saving anyone from criticism. It's a huge organisation With direct command under President.


The issue is of managing funds. That's MoDs/CCS sphere since it sanctions.
capex. With AMCA, LCA MK1A, MK2. And simultaneous talks of rafael acquisition and Su-57E.. one wonders if this even makes sense. Something have to be sacrificed and it should not be LCA and AMCA ( Non-HAL).
Even spread over 12-15 years.. it's still a lot of money for simultaneous development and manufacturing.

Granted 60%IC results in a kick for economy itself. But the poor performance of HAL have had little value addition to indian economy. Then, who will borne the initial costs.. will Dassault be asked to invest and build before getting payment ( scheduled) or we pay in advance for any infra needed to be built.
Is the funds govt have in mind for IAF enough for successful projects of every program?

Hellfire had multiple times had tweeted that no LCA mk2 will be inducted. It will be MK1a going to induct and with chances of AMCA.

 

[Hydra]

When the Pakistanis themselves admitted to having deployed their PL-15s against the Indian Rafales, and the end result was:

• only one aircraft lost (and even then, with uncertainty about the actual cause of the downing),
• while the Rafales then continued their air-to-ground strikes unhindered,

then yes, it is automatically perceived as huge publicity for the Rafale.

Why is it such powerful ‘advertising’?

• Reversed narrative: instead of downplaying it, Islamabad publicly acknowledged the use of its ‘miracle weapons’ (PL-15), which makes the comparison measurable.
• Operational image: despite a salvo dedicated to countering them, the Rafales remained masters of the sky.
• Spectra enhanced: the electronic warfare suite is implicitly validated as capable of ‘neutralising’ the latest Chinese threat.
• Psychological consequence: any military expert understands that if an adversary ‘gives everything’ and achieves almost nothing, it is because the opposing platform has a clear advantage.

For India

• The IAF does not even need to engage in heavy propaganda: the fact that Pakistan has said so is enough to lend credibility to its internal discourse.
• Air-to-ground strikes without effective retaliation reinforce the idea of unquestionable air superiority.
• This comes at a time when the request for 114 ‘Made in India’ Rafales is on the table: the operational argument is rock solid.

In short: by flexing its muscles with the PL-15, Pakistan has provided Dassault and the IAF with the best possible free advertising campaign.

Congratulations, France gonna get g2g orders for Rafale. My 24 years of waiting for new aircraft capable to tackle another Kargil type scenario is about to end.

Question is the new deal will be F4 version or F5 version we gonna order? AFAIK you cannot update F4 version to F5 since later will have different engine with higher thrust.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Congratulations, France gonna get g2g orders for Rafale. My 24 years of waiting for new aircraft capable to tackle another Kargil type scenario is about to end.

Question is the new deal will be F4 version or F5 version we gonna order? AFAIK you cannot update F4 version to F5 since later will have different engine with higher thrust.

The new engine has the same dimensions as the old one and is interchangeable. The air supply can be adapted to the future engine rather than the old one; it will work with both the old and new engines.

 

[Shan]

The GaN aspect of the Rafale:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1966743499493233109

 

[Fatalis]

The new engine has the same dimensions as the old one and is interchangeable. The air supply can be adapted to the future engine rather than the old one; it will work with both the old and new engines.

I welcome the decision of getting more Rafale. We have to build domestic capability but not at the cost of national defence. They should always go in parallel.

I am not sure if you have already replied to this query but my question is why Rafales are not yet integrated with Meteor ( or they have already been integrated just the pics are not present online)?

 

[Kiduva21]

Hellfire had multiple times had tweeted that no LCA mk2 will be inducted. It will be MK1a going to induct and with chances of AMCA.

i am more inclined to to that MK2 may not come at all
don't think in current capability it will be able to defend J20s in 2040s

May happen what happen to MCA (which changed to AMCA)
we my get a small single engine stealth shaped, fighter with upcoming indo french engine.

Su 57 may come like Mig25 , secretly hidden from public eye. (else sanctions from west will ruin our economy)

more or less believe 114 rafale new order with new engine deal should be signed, a huge corruption allegation will be started by RaGa with Pak narrative.

IAF don't want more su 30 so 12 more with be that is it.

99.99% no F35 but don't know where the trade deals are going with USA.

slow and painfully LCA MK1A will add up in numbers like 10 -12 a year due to engine availability.

 

[Shan]

A video discussing GaN and Meteor integration. This video is in Hindi. ENG captions are unavailable. The chap has some good points about Scalp and Meteor.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I welcome the decision of getting more Rafale. We have to build domestic capability but not at the cost of national defence. They should always go in parallel.

I am not sure if you have already replied to this query but my question is why Rafales are not yet integrated with Meteor ( or they have already been integrated just the pics are not present online)?

The METEORs were integrated, but in Operation SINDOOR, the IAF used the Rafale in an air-to-ground configuration.

 

[Hydra]

i am more inclined to to that MK2 may not come at all
don't think in current capability it will be able to defend J20s in 2040s

May happen what happen to MCA (which changed to AMCA)
we my get a small single engine stealth shaped, fighter with upcoming indo french engine.

Su 57 may come like Mig25 , secretly hidden from public eye. (else sanctions from west will ruin our economy)

more or less believe 114 rafale new order with new engine deal should be signed, a huge corruption allegation will be started by RaGa with Pak narrative.

IAF don't want more su 30 so 12 more with be that is it.

99.99% no F35 but don't know where the trade deals are going with USA.

slow and painfully LCA MK1A will add up in numbers like 10 -12 a year due to engine availability.

Rafale will follow.MKI way I believe. Follow on orders and total numbers may exceed 200.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale will follow.MKI way I believe. Follow on orders and total numbers may exceed 200.

In 2042 it will be 100 for the 3 Carriers of Indian Navy and 300 for IAF.

 

[Bon Plan]

Luckily, France's plans for FCAS are in complete disarray, and Rafale is their only combat ac. They will continue to invest in the ac until SCAF comes online.

India could pitch for co-developing future Rafale variants + SCAF as part of a comprehensive partnership. In any case, we're just about getting started with conceptualizing our own 6G jet.

F5 std is funded.
It was said at least 5 years ago that the Rafale road map was made until F7.

 

[vstol Jockey]

In 2042 it will be 100 for the 3 Carriers of Indian Navy and 300 for IAF.

why has DA failed to integrate the ISE in the aircraft till date. I am against the deal signed with developing an engine with France as they have cheated us. Even the French Rafale had just recently done test firing of Meteor. Even their own Rafale were not equipped with it. I am going to start a campaign to black list DA for failure to meet its commitments and to be penalised for it.