MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

The move to take the proposal forward has come soon after the Rafale performed very well against Pakistan in Operation Sindoor, where it managed to comprehensively beat the Chinese PL-15 air-to-air missiles using its Spectra Electronic warfare suite.

Yeah we all saw how well Rafale performed against PL-15 when it ate them & went to sleep. lmao
Such blatant lies just shows the state of media in this country. When you can show the positives of Rafale, dont gloss over the negatives. Rafales can successfully penetrate ADS protected sites with their Scalp missiles (May 10-11, Nur Khan AFB), but then they are easy to shoot down (May 7) due to their non-stealth airframes, despite all the spectra non-sense that the french keep selling.

All these subtle lies just to protect dear leaders govt from criticism. How is this country different than Pakistan then???

Spending so much money on a non-stealth a/c is just retarded. Just join any other stealth programs at this point. Money would be far better spent there. Whatever happens, keep HAL out of it. 50 yrs spent to feed this incompetent organization. Just shameful. Engage risk taking MSMEs to take the lead. VEM, Alpha Tocol, L&T, etc should be pushed to the forefront. Perform or perish kind of mentality.

Any govt that does this should rightfully fall. If this deal goes ahead, then I would like to see Modi get chased & kicked in the streets like Nepalese ministers.

झूठ का घड़ा भर रहा है, जिस दिन ये फूटेगा, मोदी की गांड भी फाड़ दी जाएगी।
मोदी के समर्थकों को शायद यह एहसास नहीं हो रहा कि यह देश उनसे ऊब गया है, 2014 के दौर का आकर्षण खत्म हो चुका है।

 

[Sathya]

IAF has sent a proposal. That's...., do you understand how the procurement works?

DRDO and associated industry has been ready to sign the deal for 6 Mk1A Netra. But we still don't have enough clearances.

MDL and Naval Group have completed the negotiations for 3 more subs and we haven't yet signed them.

These requirements are as important as that of MRFA.

What makes you think that PMO-MoD-IAF will break its usual routine this time?

I was thinking Engine deal will be signed with MRFA.. we can't delay engine deal

 

[Jarvis]

IAN'S job is not to give business to HAL or promotion to who ever involved in Tejas program. It's the job of GOI.

That is a very myopic take which ignores the future. IAF will reap significant dividends if it helps GoI and defence industry in developing aeronautics ecosystem in India, just like the navy is reaping right now. It will have lower acquisition costs, easier maintenance, right to integrate any weapon it desires, modify or upgrade the aircraft in any way it wants, free of any diplomatic arm-twisting, among others. Saying that IAF has no role to play in development of aeronautical ecosystem in India is way off the mark. It is the only customer for such systems and its participation is critical.

 

[Jarvis]

The race is against time. Mk2 will come after 12 years, Indian airforce needs to prepare within 2 years for bigger challenges with sufficient numbers of active aircrafts with in ready to fight mode, there is an imminent threat. Increase the petrol prices for 5 months by Rs. 4 will get you more than 2 lakhs crores for MK2.

We can handle Pakistani threat with whatever we have right now in our arsenal and for the Chinese, even 114 Rafales would be insufficient (ignoring geopolitical and geographical constraints). Our focus IMO should be on getting 36-54 Rafales to close this MRFA saga and solidify our advantage over Pakistanis and transfer Tejas Mk2 and AMCA projects to PMO for oversight. Aim to induct them as quickly as possible. GoI and IAF missed the bus, as always. Tejas Mk2 should have been in mass production right now with AMCA in testing.

 

[Shan]

@Rajput Lion @Parthu What's your take on this ? It's still in its infancy and I do not know if the nos. will remain the same when MoD or CCS take a look at it.

 

[TARGET]

I was thinking Engine deal will be signed with MRFA.. we can't delay engine deal

As we know the track record of Indian defense procurement, everything is just a plan until it's actually signed; nothing executes on time…

 

[Speedster1]

Numbers could well be pared down, imo. Especially since the IAF already has 36 birds in its inventory and the INs 26 strong fleet won't be at sea all the time. The investment required for 114 more jets is substantial- $30b to $35b by some estimates. This is in addition to the over $15b spent already (36+26). The engine deal with Safran is another biggie ($8b?).

How does the IAF expect to pay for Su-57, I wonder?

 

[Jarvis]

That's 23 billion spread over 15 years. That's the weakest attack on Rafale as a MRFA contender.

I would attack the deal on 2 merits

1. Non Stealth design procurement/signing in 2028 (earliest we can sign it)

2. Lack of control over the aircraft. Control levels anything less than that of Jaguar/Su30MKI is useless.

Though definitely those 2 points are stronger objection, money is still a significant issue. My attack is not on Rafale. If the IAF is satisfied with it then who are we to say. The problem is with numbers. 114 aircraft will be too much for our budget IMO. I think $25 billion spread over 8-10 years is more likely scenario we would be looking at. IAF capital acquisition budget in FY26 is around ₹55,000 crore. Assuming 7% annual increase in the budget, it would reach to around ₹1,10,00 crore in 2035. ₹20,000-25,000 crore would be half of the budget in initial years and 1/4th in latter years. And this is when we have significant IAF acquisitions like Tejas Mk1, Tejas Mk2, refuellers, AWACS, Project Kusha and other air defence systems, etc pending. Getting 36-54 Rafales would be a better idea to close the MRFA saga.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Yeah we all saw how well Rafale performed against PL-15 when it ate them & went to sleep. lmao
Such blatant lies just shows the state of media in this country. When you can show the positives of Rafale, dont gloss over the negatives. Rafales can successfully penetrate ADS protected sites with their Scalp missiles (May 10-11, Nur Khan AFB), but then they are easy to shoot down (May 7) due to their non-stealth airframes, despite all the spectra non-sense that the french keep selling.

All these subtle lies just to protect dear leaders govt from criticism. How is this country different than Pakistan then???

Spending so much money on a non-stealth a/c is just retarded. Just join any other stealth programs at this point. Money would be far better spent there. Whatever happens, keep HAL out of it. 50 yrs spent to feed this incompetent organization. Just shameful. Engage risk taking MSMEs to take the lead. VEM, Alpha Tocol, L&T, etc should be pushed to the forefront. Perform or perish kind of mentality.

Any govt that does this should rightfully fall. If this deal goes ahead, then I would like to see Modi get chased & kicked in the streets like Nepalese ministers.

झूठ का घड़ा भर रहा है, जिस दिन ये फूटेगा, मोदी की गांड भी फाड़ दी जाएगी।
मोदी के समर्थकों को शायद यह एहसास नहीं हो रहा कि यह देश उनसे ऊब गया है, 2014 के दौर का आकर्षण खत्म हो चुका है।

When the Pakistanis themselves admitted to having deployed their PL-15s against the Indian Rafales, and the end result was:

• only one aircraft lost (and even then, with uncertainty about the actual cause of the downing),
• while the Rafales then continued their air-to-ground strikes unhindered,

then yes, it is automatically perceived as huge publicity for the Rafale.

Why is it such powerful ‘advertising’?

• Reversed narrative: instead of downplaying it, Islamabad publicly acknowledged the use of its ‘miracle weapons’ (PL-15), which makes the comparison measurable.
• Operational image: despite a salvo dedicated to countering them, the Rafales remained masters of the sky.
• Spectra enhanced: the electronic warfare suite is implicitly validated as capable of ‘neutralising’ the latest Chinese threat.
• Psychological consequence: any military expert understands that if an adversary ‘gives everything’ and achieves almost nothing, it is because the opposing platform has a clear advantage.

For India

• The IAF does not even need to engage in heavy propaganda: the fact that Pakistan has said so is enough to lend credibility to its internal discourse.
• Air-to-ground strikes without effective retaliation reinforce the idea of unquestionable air superiority.
• This comes at a time when the request for 114 ‘Made in India’ Rafales is on the table: the operational argument is rock solid.

In short: by flexing its muscles with the PL-15, Pakistan has provided Dassault and the IAF with the best possible free advertising campaign.

 

[babablacksheep]

When the Pakistanis themselves admitted to having deployed their PL-15s against the Indian Rafales, and the end result was:

• only one aircraft lost (and even then, with uncertainty about the actual cause of the downing),
• while the Rafales then continued their air-to-ground strikes unhindered,

then yes, it is automatically perceived as huge publicity for the Rafale.

Why is it such powerful ‘advertising’?

• Reversed narrative: instead of downplaying it, Islamabad publicly acknowledged the use of its ‘miracle weapons’ (PL-15), which makes the comparison measurable.
• Operational image: despite a salvo dedicated to countering them, the Rafales remained masters of the sky.
• Spectra enhanced: the electronic warfare suite is implicitly validated as capable of ‘neutralising’ the latest Chinese threat.
• Psychological consequence: any military expert understands that if an adversary ‘gives everything’ and achieves almost nothing, it is because the opposing platform has a clear advantage.

For India

• The IAF does not even need to engage in heavy propaganda: the fact that Pakistan has said so is enough to lend credibility to its internal discourse.
• Air-to-ground strikes without effective retaliation reinforce the idea of unquestionable air superiority.
• This comes at a time when the request for 114 ‘Made in India’ Rafales is on the table: the operational argument is rock solid.

In short: by flexing its muscles with the PL-15, Pakistan has provided Dassault and the IAF with the best possible free advertising campaign.

Better refined timeline will be.
We get 36 directly from France from 2030.
12 per year, all delivered by end of 2033.
Indian factory starts producing rafale from 2032.
8 in first year from 2032-2033.
16 in 2033-2034.
24 in 2034-2035.
30 in 2035-2036.

Total 114 delivered by end of 2036.

Your thoughts?

 

[Rajput Lion]

@Rajput Lion @Parthu What's your take on this ? It's still in its infancy and I do not know if the nos. will remain the same when MoD or CCS take a look at it.

More Rafales are a lock. That is confirmed. About the numbers, my guess would be either 60 or 90. Though I would love if GOI decide to order full 114 Rafales as I've already said before that more Rafales we've, the better for us and bad for our enemy. Let's see.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Your thoughts?

Contract for 114 Rafale aircraft to be signed next month. ... in Indian time, i.e. in May 2026 under normal time.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Contract for 114 Rafale aircraft to be signed next month.

Contract for more Rafales along with GTRE/Safran 120-140KN 5th gen engine JV deal. Hope we sign both these without wasting any time.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

If, by whatever chance, the navy needed to increase its fleet from 26 to 57 Rafales, would the IAF agree to alternate production for it?

 

[Subgradewalker]

I don't think we should get into if rafael are good or not. The forces with this proposal has clearly shown their confidence in it. And no amount of keyboard warriors can have better understanding of IAFs assets then IAF themselves.

And one is mistaken to think that given the propoganda machinery of ISI, CHINA and Indian left.. it wouldn't have blown up the issue of any fault with rafael. The fact that all they could do was cast doubts by citing each other, debunked images and sources of planes downed coming from "pakistan", which some morons take as truth for political potshots.. even after that it couldnt provide anything substantial. And no sir, our armed forces aren't called toughest customers for no reason. Even the worst system in inventory inducted have been proven to have edge over historical adversary when in IAFs hand. And forces will never spend this much sum for saving anyone from criticism. It's a huge organisation With direct command under President.


The issue is of managing funds. That's MoDs/CCS sphere since it sanctions.
capex. With AMCA, LCA MK1A, MK2. And simultaneous talks of rafael acquisition and Su-57E.. one wonders if this even makes sense. Something have to be sacrificed and it should not be LCA and AMCA ( Non-HAL).
Even spread over 12-15 years.. it's still a lot of money for simultaneous development and manufacturing.

Granted 60%IC results in a kick for economy itself. But the poor performance of HAL have had little value addition to indian economy. Then, who will borne the initial costs.. will Dassault be asked to invest and build before getting payment ( scheduled) or we pay in advance for any infra needed to be built.
Is the funds govt have in mind for IAF enough for successful projects of every program?

 

[Subgradewalker]

Yeah we all saw how well Rafale performed against PL-15 when it ate them & went to sleep. lmao
Such blatant lies just shows the state of media in this country. When you can show the positives of Rafale, dont gloss over the negatives. Rafales can successfully penetrate ADS protected sites with their Scalp missiles (May 10-11, Nur Khan AFB), but then they are easy to shoot down (May 7) due to their non-stealth airframes, despite all the spectra non-sense that the french keep selling.

All these subtle lies just to protect dear leaders govt from criticism. How is this country different than Pakistan then???

Spending so much money on a non-stealth a/c is just retarded. Just join any other stealth programs at this point. Money would be far better spent there. Whatever happens, keep HAL out of it. 50 yrs spent to feed this incompetent organization. Just shameful. Engage risk taking MSMEs to take the lead. VEM, Alpha Tocol, L&T, etc should be pushed to the forefront. Perform or perish kind of mentality.

Any govt that does this should rightfully fall. If this deal goes ahead, then I would like to see Modi get chased & kicked in the streets like Nepalese ministers.

झूठ का घड़ा भर रहा है, जिस दिन ये फूटेगा, मोदी की गांड भी फाड़ दी जाएगी।
मोदी के समर्थकों को शायद यह एहसास नहीं हो रहा कि यह देश उनसे ऊब गया है, 2014 के दौर का आकर्षण खत्म हो चुका है।

Source = pakistan?
Or do you think stealth is some magic we see in scifi where object become literally invisible? When fighting a rival AF, even 5th jet goes down. Point is.. did they serve their role? What kind of environment we battled in? And what was the enemy tactics used.
Even CDS has made everything clear and yet you rant here.

More details are surfacing as IAF does it due diligence. That's the difference b/w a professional army and a political army( pak).

It depends if in your political pain, you're going to target non-political gain. If you wanna discuss about politics, we have a seperate thread for it.. and we can have comparative analysis on all the past and current indian policy makers. What you say?

 

[Nishaanbaaz]

If you guys recollect, in 2016 when this deal was signed, I had clearly mentioned a figure of 225 Rafale for IAF & IN combined.

So will they finally place a giant combined order for local production of the remaining # of IAF MMRCA and IN MRCBF fighters? And will the Su-57 acquisition continue in tandem?

 

[Sathya]

More Rafales are a lock. That is confirmed. About the numbers, my guess would be either 60 or 90. Though I would love if GOI decide to order full 114 Rafales as I've already said before that more Rafales we've, the better for us and bad for our enemy. Let's see.

Any chance Naval orders are signed with make in India as part of deal ? Like assembly from skd or ckd kits ?
That would make 60 or 90 + 24 = 84 or 114

I am guessing u r guessing 60 numbers, because of aquisition of Su 57 too ?

 

[Rajput Lion]

Any chance Naval orders are signed with make in India as part of deal ? Like assembly from skd or ckd kits ?
That would make 60 or 90 + 24 = 84 or 114

Depends whether French agree to make M-88 completely in India or not. Otherwise rather than make in India it would just be "partially" made in India with Tata providing the fuselage to M/S Dassault.

I am guessing u r guessing 60 numbers, because of aquisition of Su 57 too ?

For IAF it is always Rafale first and then everything else second, lol. 60 is just for initial Su-57 batch. Discussions are going on regarding reviving 2-seat FGFA variant of which India will hold full IP and full modification rights without Russian permission. That will be increase Su-57s numbers well beyond 60 and even close to 200. Just wait for sometime and all details will come out in public.

 

[Interested]

Yeah we all saw how well Rafale performed against PL-15 when it ate them & went to sleep. lmao
Such blatant lies just shows the state of media in this country. When you can show the positives of Rafale, dont gloss over the negatives. Rafales can successfully penetrate ADS protected sites with their Scalp missiles (May 10-11, Nur Khan AFB), but then they are easy to shoot down (May 7) due to their non-stealth airframes, despite all the spectra non-sense that the french keep selling.

All these subtle lies just to protect dear leaders govt from criticism. How is this country different than Pakistan then???

Spending so much money on a non-stealth a/c is just retarded. Just join any other stealth programs at this point. Money would be far better spent there. Whatever happens, keep HAL out of it. 50 yrs spent to feed this incompetent organization. Just shameful. Engage risk taking MSMEs to take the lead. VEM, Alpha Tocol, L&T, etc should be pushed to the forefront. Perform or perish kind of mentality.

Any govt that does this should rightfully fall. If this deal goes ahead, then I would like to see Modi get chased & kicked in the streets like Nepalese ministers.

झूठ का घड़ा भर रहा है, जिस दिन ये फूटेगा, मोदी की गांड भी फाड़ दी जाएगी।
मोदी के समर्थकों को शायद यह एहसास नहीं हो रहा कि यह देश उनसे ऊब गया है, 2014 के दौर का आकर्षण खत्म हो चुका है।

The only 5 th gen program India can join is the Su 57 so that will be adding yet another aircraft to the zoo that is the IAF inventory.

And Rafale was not easily shot down in May 7th . Thats what happens when you do deep strikes without doing SEAD. Even a F22 can be shot down if it's flying around a peer enemy AF and AD range after it releases its weapon load as stealth is lost at that point ,