MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 38 15.3%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 193 77.5%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 1.6%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.4%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 11 4.4%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.6%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    249
MDPU was the standard MC on all M-2000s from the Dash-5 production version onwards. IAF birds too were likely upgraded to the same standard with a 2nd MC added to the avionics architecture by HAL. So theoretically this should be doable for the Rafale too. It has an open systems architecture.

The MDPU's modules, APIs, firmwares, and protocols are all proprietary French technologies. We have access to small parts like datalink modules and some weapons integration modules, but nothing else. It may be open architecture but its primarily usable by the French alone, so they have to do the integration. It's open for them, not for us.

We can't integrate an RF seeker to its radar for example. So if we want to integrate Astra on Rafale, we have to give them all the details of the missile's seeker and datalink, basically our proprietary tech. Otoh, MKI has been integrated with Astra and Derby without Russian involvement.
 
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We can't integrate an RF seeker to its radar for example. So if we want to integrate Astra on Rafale, we have to give them all the details of the missile's seeker and datalink, basically our proprietary tech. Otoh, MKI has been integrated with Astra and Derby without Russian involvement.
Under the Rafale-M deal, we are reportedly negotiating for access to the Rafale's (radar?) source code for simplifying local weapons integration. This would eliminate the need for adding additional hardware (MC) as on the M-2000I. Of course, the extent to which they'll give us access is anybody's guess at this point.
 
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Under the Rafale-M deal, we are reportedly negotiating for access to the Rafale's (radar?) source code for simplifying local weapons integration. This would eliminate the need for adding additional hardware (MC) as on the M-2000I. Of course, the extent to which they'll give us access is anybody's guess at this point.

We basically need two things at the very minimum. F-35I-style modification. This doesn't touch the core sensor suite and flight controls. And we need raw sensor data. It gives away some information like TRM characteristics, but I think it's something France can afford to give away, especially if MRFA will allow us to manufacture TRMs.

80-90% of our problems can be solved with the first bit alone. The remaing 10-20% is necessary for full 6th gen integration into the IAF otherwise it will just be a glorified 5th gen functioning in a silo.

I've explained it here. Posts 625 and 629.
 
That's okay. When I say MDPU, I meant overall French processing. Signal processor + radar computer + mission computer... whatever the hardware chain is.

On Bars, we have access to raw sensor data. But on Rafale F5, I don't think France will allow India to add its own signal processors and other computers. So, if the raw radar data is extracted and transferred offboard, it can be used to create tracking and fire control information for SAMs like the Russian S-400.

The idea is while individual platforms like satellites, drones, and jets have their own onboard processing, raw sensor data from each of these platforms can create a better fusion of the battlespace on the ground using AI and more powerful computers. And this data can then be transferred on the cloud to all assets. The goal is to create a single global picture on cloud.
I asked the question
 
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We basically need two things at the very minimum. F-35I-style modification. This doesn't touch the core sensor suite and flight controls. And we need raw sensor data. It gives away some information like TRM characteristics, but I think it's something France can afford to give away, especially if MRFA will allow us to manufacture TRMs.
BEL already makes TRMs for the RBE-2AA. When it comes to software, France probably has ITAR style laws of its own to protect raw sensor data, signature libraries, etc.

Any exceptions will probably be made on a case-by-case basis. Remember how NG kept MDL folks at arms length when working on the Kalvari prog or their recent outburst against TKMS for sharing too much IP?
 
BEL already makes TRMs for the RBE-2AA. When it comes to software, France probably has ITAR style laws of its own to protect raw sensor data, signature libraries, etc.

Any exceptions will probably be made on a case-by-case basis. Remember how NG kept MDL folks at arms length when working on the Kalvari prog or their recent outburst against TKMS for sharing too much IP?

Raw sensor data and signature do not necessarily break their laws. Libraries will be largely empty anyway, we gotta fill that up ourselves.

Getting access to raw sensor data requires changes to the TRM's basic design. A data tap needs to be introduced within the architecture of the TRM before the samples enter the receiver. Basically a copy needs to be made and transferred over the air to offboard destinations, which is a full-fledged architecture of its own. It will need its own processing, formating, and storage.

If these changes are not incorporated from day one, then we will have to wait for MLU.

NG has different issues to work with. They don't have a captive SSK market, they can only export. So any new competition is a headache for them.
 
Getting access to raw sensor data requires changes to the TRM's basic design. A data tap needs to be introduced within the architecture of the TRM before the samples enter the receiver. Basically a copy needs to be made and transferred over the air to offboard destinations, which is a full-fledged architecture of its own. It will need its own processing, formating, and storage.
ISEs cost over $1.6b. Design customization at the TRM level could make the Rafales unaffordable. We are no UAE which paid LM to develop an all-new AN/APG-80 AESA for their bespoke F-16E/F B60 Desert Falcon version, the first AESA-equipped F-16 ever. We'd be better off focusing our energies on in-house R&D imo.
 
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That's okay. When I say MDPU, I meant overall French processing. Signal processor + radar computer + mission computer... whatever the hardware chain is.

On Bars, we have access to raw sensor data. But on Rafale F5, I don't think France will allow India to add its own signal processors and other computers. So, if the raw radar data is extracted and transferred offboard, it can be used to create tracking and fire control information for SAMs like the Russian S-400.

The idea is while individual platforms like satellites, drones, and jets have their own onboard processing, raw sensor data from each of these platforms can create a better fusion of the battlespace on the ground using AI and more powerful computers. And this data can then be transferred on the cloud to all assets. The goal is to create a single global picture on cloud.
Raw radar data (I/Q) is considered highly sensitive because it can indirectly be used to reconstitute or bypass processing and exploitation algorithms. French doctrine is generally more open than that of the United States, but it remains cautious when it comes to allowing a partner to use this data to feed a C4ISR system not controlled by France (in particular to avoid capture by other powers, including Russia or the United States). In theory, it is possible to define an interface for exporting sensor data to a combat cloud, but this requires a level of trust, encryption and compartmentalisation that goes well beyond simple access to the Rafale's internal buses.

What is being asked for is part of a vision of an advanced combat cloud, which France understands perfectly, since it is also developing similar concepts on its side with the SCAF and the joint tactical cloud.

On the Rafale F4/F5, access to so-called ‘pre-processed’ data is not designed natively, as much of the processing is directly integrated into the sensor bricks themselves, for reasons of efficiency and security. This is not to say that nothing is possible - but it would imply, in order to move in this direction, a co-engineering approach further upstream, within a precise bilateral framework.

For example, it might be judicious to study together how to interface certain data flows (from Rafale sensors) with Indian modules - whether internal to the aircraft or remote - within a controlled, secure and jointly validated framework. This would involve identifying what types of data would be useful (level, format, frequency), at what granularity, and within what latency or cybersecurity constraints. This is an area that it would be interesting to explore with the technical teams at Dassault and Thales.

It is precisely this type of strategic discussion that would be made possible by a structuring G-to-G agreement, or an in-depth technological section within the MRFA framework.
 
Raw radar data (I/Q) is considered highly sensitive because it can indirectly be used to reconstitute or bypass processing and exploitation algorithms. French doctrine is generally more open than that of the United States, but it remains cautious when it comes to allowing a partner to use this data to feed a C4ISR system not controlled by France (in particular to avoid capture by other powers, including Russia or the United States). In theory, it is possible to define an interface for exporting sensor data to a combat cloud, but this requires a level of trust, encryption and compartmentalisation that goes well beyond simple access to the Rafale's internal buses.

What is being asked for is part of a vision of an advanced combat cloud, which France understands perfectly, since it is also developing similar concepts on its side with the SCAF and the joint tactical cloud.

On the Rafale F4/F5, access to so-called ‘pre-processed’ data is not designed natively, as much of the processing is directly integrated into the sensor bricks themselves, for reasons of efficiency and security. This is not to say that nothing is possible - but it would imply, in order to move in this direction, a co-engineering approach further upstream, within a precise bilateral framework.

For example, it might be judicious to study together how to interface certain data flows (from Rafale sensors) with Indian modules - whether internal to the aircraft or remote - within a controlled, secure and jointly validated framework. This would involve identifying what types of data would be useful (level, format, frequency), at what granularity, and within what latency or cybersecurity constraints. This is an area that it would be interesting to explore with the technical teams at Dassault and Thales.

It is precisely this type of strategic discussion that would be made possible by a structuring G-to-G agreement, or an in-depth technological section within the MRFA framework.

LLM?

Why would I/Q data be considered sensitive? The only thing it carries is enemy data and antenna characteristics. And India will manufacture the antenna and will know everything about it. If antenna processing hardware is to remain a secret, then it can be supplied by France and installed later on the TRM PCB in India.

The idea is to extract the data without exposure to proprietary algorithms because the data itself wouldn't have to be a secret.

As for encryption, India is developing a robust quantum satellite-based system which should meet the needs.
 
@randomradio I would like to say today the Typhoon and F-15EX would be a better buy that the rafale.
Nope. Rafale penetrated highly contested/defended Pak airspace and destroyed all its targets and *almost* returned unscathed(not sure about Bhatinda crash). Neither Typhoon or F-15 EX could have done that.

Our best Air-to-air fighter is MKI and it's by far superior to both Typhoon and F-15EX. Even AMCA won't replace MKI. It'll be replaced by AHCA(official project now). Rafale is basically for day 1 penetration missions. Currently it's our best air-to-air fighter because of AESA radar + Meteor. Once MKI comes online with Virupaksha and Gandiva, it'll retake its mantel.

Typhoon & F-15 EX don't fit in our airforce structure. It's going to be AMCA + LCA+ MKI + Rafale with only exception being Su-57.
 
Nope. Rafale penetrated highly contested/defended Pak airspace and destroyed all its targets and *almost* returned unscathed(not sure about Bhatinda crash). Neither Typhoon or F-15 EX could have done that.

Our best Air-to-air fighter is MKI and it's by far superior to both Typhoon and F-15EX. Even AMCA won't replace MKI. It'll be replaced by AHCA(official project now). Rafale is basically for day 1 penetration missions. Currently it's our best air-to-air fighter because of AESA radar + Meteor. Once MKI comes online with Virupaksha and Gandiva, it'll retake its mantel.

Typhoon & F-15 EX don't fit in our airforce structure. It's going to be AMCA + LCA+ MKI + Rafale with only exception being Su-57.
Need to get access to amraam d3's,meteors and r-37m's. We need something that bullies them a 100km into their own airspace.
 
Nope. Rafale penetrated highly contested/defended Pak airspace and destroyed all its targets and *almost* returned unscathed(not sure about Bhatinda crash). Neither Typhoon or F-15 EX could have done that.
And it's not just Chinese LY-80/HQ-9 and assorted air surviellance radars they were up against. The Pakistanis also have a fairly large number of US-origin TPS-77 radars in their inventory. Executing a large scale strike against such odds is a remarkable feat.
 
No 4.5 gen aircraft can plausibly engage modern air defense without losses. Note Pakistan hardly counts as modern air defense, but neither did Ukraine and Russia with many advanced aircraft failed at air superiority.

We see that in Ukraine, we see it in Pakistan. The solution is F-35. Been saying it for a decade now on the old forum as well.

J-20's are popping off the production facility at numbers of 100+

Can India afford to wait?