MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 30 12.8%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 79.6%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 8 3.4%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    235
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Have long maintained that MRFA is nothing but a time-pass. And so is the next impending version of this tender, whatever it'll be called.

The real reason, which no one will say out loud, is simply that we don't have the the kind of money needed to procure 114 foreign 4.5 gen jets + cost of ToT & local production line.

The most viable way forward was always to just buy 36 more Rafales off the shelf, then put all resources toward Tejas Mk2 program which by this point has turned into an MRCA in it's own right comparable to F-21/Gripen-E.

The only outstanding requirement that Mk2 couldn't fulfill was of a DPSA with long legs. Two more squadrons of Rafales would have been enough to plug that hole, especially when supported by Loyal Wingmen & Rocket Forces which weren't part of the pictute before. Everything else that MRFA was needed for, Tejas Mk2 can manage just fine (including Deep Strike on Western front for which we don't need much range, allowing us to divert the Ambala squadron of Rafale to LAC as well).

Now unfortunately it seems even that 36 off the shelf order is becoming unviable due to timelines brought on by UAE's 80 jet order and supply chain issues.

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place. If we're smart, we need to convince MBZ to divert 36 of their production slots to us as UAE isn't facing immediate threats on their borders like us. Modi has built up a good strategic & economic relationship with UAE so it's possible.
 
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The reason is Russia. It would be a huge win for the West if India stops relying on Russia for military tech.
No. The reason is to enable a third super power between China and US. Since India don't seem to become an empire that's a perfect ally for France. That's the reason that enable a very long cooperation between us.
France has always lack of power to counter its opponents (for example 5 centuries ago, when France was alone in Europe, France found an ally with the Ottoman).
We need you to be powerfull, so that a lot of nation like France can find a solution between China and US.
 
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No. The reason is to enable a third super power between China and US. Since India don't seem to become an empire that's a perfect ally for France. That's the reason that enable a very long cooperation between us.
France has always lack of power to counter its opponents (for example 5 centuries ago, when France was alone in Europe, France found an ally with the Ottoman).
We need you to be powerfull, so that a lot of nation like France can find a solution between China and US.
It's not specifically the US , it's the Anglo alliance - the 5i's . As long as the alliance prevails , in the hierarchy of nations even among close allies , the US will be the paramount power & the UK will always enjoy preferential treatment as compared to all the other European allies , France included .

The most overt demonstration of it was the AUKUS & how France was outmaneuvered .
 
No. The reason is to enable a third super power between China and US. Since India don't seem to become an empire that's a perfect ally for France. That's the reason that enable a very long cooperation between us.
France has always lack of power to counter its opponents (for example 5 centuries ago, when France was alone in Europe, France found an ally with the Ottoman).
We need you to be powerfull, so that a lot of nation like France can find a solution between China and US.

What you stated is France's position, the US and UK do not want to make India a military superpower.

Even if India wants to become a military superpower, could happen only after 2050, the immediate aftereffect of Western transfer of tech will result in weakening India's partnership with Russia, and this is something the US, France and UK are completely in alignment with. And a large chunk of the deals are aimed to supplement Russia as well and in return India has canceled or postponed many deals pending with Russia. That's why I believe this is the main goal.

While France's actions are that of a well-wisher of India considering our aligned goals, the US and UK's intentions are much more malicious. Their main goal is to balkanize India to a certain extent around the border areas of Pakistan and Myanmar and create separatist tendencies in South India, while trying to politically separate India from Russia, to the extent of protecting anti-India terrorists in the US, UK and Canada. Had India fallen into the Russian sanctions trap, half their job would have been done. Similarly AUKUS is not a challenge to the Chinese alone, those SSNs will actively patrol the IOR as a counter to India and Indonesia too, resulting in Indonesia militarizing rapidly with French tech more than American.
 
simply that we don't have the the kind of money needed to procure 114 foreign 4.5 gen jets + cost of ToT & local production line
We actually do. 20-25 billion dollars would be nothing considering half of the money will get reinvested here.
The most viable way forward was always to just buy 36 more Rafales off the shelf, then put all resources toward Tejas Mk2 program which by this point has turned into an MRCA in it's own right comparable to F-21/Gripen-E.
That's realistic but it will still be delivered 4-5 years from now. The typhoon is the only good option. Gripen and f-16 are just tejas mk2 tier.
We're stuck between a rock and a hard place. If we're smart, we need to convince MBZ to divert 36 of their production slots to us as UAE isn't facing immediate threats on their borders like us. Modi has built up a good strategic & economic relationship with UAE so it's possible.
Our only exit is buying second hand mirages and mig-29's in bulk. And pumping up the numbers to 100-120 for each. Doing something like a project ROSE. Next step is finishing the MRFA by the next year either buying the typhoon or the f-21/Gripen which ever is faster. The 36 Rafale can be ordered but it will take atleast 3-4 years before we get the first aircraft. That's it. We won't have any fifth gen fighter in our inventory in the next decade. The f-35 will have to be bought since the Russians are all burnt out. That's the reality.
 
It's not specifically the US , it's the Anglo alliance - the 5i's . As long as the alliance prevails , in the hierarchy of nations even among close allies , the US will be the paramount power & the UK will always enjoy preferential treatment as compared to all the other European allies , France included .

The most overt demonstration of it was the AUKUS & how France was outmaneuvered .
Yes we were. The ultimate fight is to know who goes with who. Australians have always prefer US. We've try to have better relationship with them and now they are on the way to loose their submarine capability.
India has a lot of what is needed to resist China and US so that a lot of countries can be help to stay unalign. Our interrest is that you keep your rank in being able to be this alternativ. From De Gaulle to now this is the french politic toward India. That's why we help you for your nuclear deterence, for your spatial program, for your submarines.
That's our interest.
 
While France's actions are that of a well-wisher of India considering our aligned goals
That's not to be a well-wisher. That's our interest to have an alternativ like India in front of us so that our sovereignty is respected by imperialists like US or China.
What we need is that your own sovereignty is not put in doubt considering one capacity or an other. If one of your strategic capacity is in jeopardy that's not good for us. We need you to stay unalign.
 
Our only exit is buying second hand mirages and mig-29's in bulk. And pumping up the numbers to 100-120 for each. Doing something like a project ROSE. Next step is finishing the MRFA by the next year either buying the typhoon or the f-21/Gripen which ever is faster. The 36 Rafale can be ordered but it will take atleast 3-4 years before we get the first aircraft. That's it. We won't have any fifth gen fighter in our inventory in the next decade. The f-35 will have to be bought since the Russians are all burnt out. That's the reality.

We don't need to do all that. Our numbers have been decided for now.

13 MKI + 2 Rafale + 11 LCA + 6 MWF + 6 MRFA + 7 AMCA = 45 squadrons.

There's no space for anything new unless we wanna get rid of the unupgraded MKIs prematurely.
 
That's not to be a well-wisher. That's our interest to have an alternativ like India in front of us so that our sovereignty is respected by imperialists like US or China.
What we need is that your own sovereignty is not put in doubt considering one capacity or an other. If one of your strategic capacity is in jeopardy that's not good for us. We need you to stay unalign.

Well-wisher = France has no intention of harming India, regardless of what the upsides or downsides are, unlike the US who see India as a future rival and enemy and any attempts to fostering of good relations is being done with an ulterior motive in mind.

France wants to use India as an umbrella. The US wants to use India as a footmat.
 
France wants to use India as an umbrella. The US wants to use India as a footmat.
Not like an umbrella. We don't need a weapon. What we need is a US or a China competitor so that they can't easilly find to much allies to go in their camp. Because at the very end they both have imperialist behaviour.

We want you to be the third guy. The one who help the world to not become white or black but to have some other choices.
 
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Not like an umbrella. We don't need a weapon. What we need is a US or a China competitor so that they can't easilly find to much allies to go in their camp. Because at the very end they both have imperialist behaviour.

We want you to be the third guy. The one who help the world to not become white or black but to have some other choices.

Maybe a shield. The point I'm making doesn't change though.
 
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Also, didn't Dassault buy their entire subsidiary here in India? I mean GoI mandating that there must be local partner to manufacture fighter here and here we are with Dassault shenanigans to take entire work for them.
 
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Also, didn't Dassault buy their entire subsidiary here in India? I mean GoI mandating that there must be local partner to manufacture fighter here and here we are with Dassault shenanigans to take entire work for them.
Fully owned subsidiaries qualify as local under DPP. Saab's India unit which makes Carl Gustaf is also 100% company owned.
 
Also, didn't Dassault buy their entire subsidiary here in India? I mean GoI mandating that there must be local partner to manufacture fighter here and here we are with Dassault shenanigans to take entire work for them.

No. DRAL is still around, but Dassault has other options. They don't need to choose DRAL for an MRO facility for example. DRAL can also be reduced to a subcontractor. But MRFA will require a majority Indian partner.
 
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