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Hello Everyone
Can Anyone translate this above Tweet about 114 Rafales written in French language
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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Hello Everyone
Can Anyone translate this above Tweet about 114 Rafales written in French language
The Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 in short final of the MRFA program in India.
The visit to Paris on Monday, September 30, 2024 by India's No. 1 national security official is seen as a major step forward in the Indian Air Force's Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft program. Often referred to as MMRCA 2, this program will see the acquisition of 114 new-generation combat aircraft, some of which will be assembled locally. All the signs are now green for the Dassault Aviation Rafale F4, except that the Indians may also be interested in another fighter: the Lockheed-Martin F-21A Viper. The Viper is the latest evolution of the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon, which first flew 50 years ago.
Dassault Aviation Rafale B in Indian Air Force livery.
At the beginning of the week, the French Republic pulled out all the stops to welcome Mr. Ajit Doval, India's current National Security Advisor. His first stop was the Quai d'Orsay, where he was welcomed by its new tenant, Jean-Noël Barrot. After a series of meetings on defense and security cooperation, the group headed for... the other side of the Seine. At the Élysée Palace, the President of the Republic, Mr. Emmanuel Macron, received them. His Minister of the Armed Forces, Mr. Sébastien Lecornu, was also in attendance. In India, Mr. Doval is one of the men directly negotiating the MRFA combat aircraft program. So it's no coincidence that, in addition to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, he also met with Messrs Lecornu and Macron, who are in charge of Rafale F4 exports. This is something that the Indian press has been highlighting for the past two days. Strangely enough, the French media have been a little (a lot) radio-silent.
Yet the MRFA could well be the jackpot for the Clodiac aircraft manufacturer and its masterpiece. One hundred and fourteen aircraft have been ordered, a figure that makes the head spin. Especially when you consider that the Rafale F4 has already wiped out most of its competitors. Mikoyan MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, Saab JAS 39E/F Gripen, and Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E were all quickly discarded, while the Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon fought hard for its share of the market, to the point where the Indians might have thought it was of interest. But no. And what about the F-15EX Eagle II proposed by Boeing to replace the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, now out of production? The “I'm offering it to you because the other one is outdated” argument is rather limited commercially speaking. Especially when the customer is the Indian Air Force. So, faced with the Rafale F4, all that's left is the F-21A Viper, a version adapted to Indian needs from the now famous F-16V Viper. Although Washington DC is pushing hard for this aircraft, it is far from being favored by the military over its French competitor. And with good reason!
Indian Air Force pilots know the Dassault Aviation Rafale well: they fly it. And for them, this fighter jet has become a game changer, particularly in the face of Chinese adversaries. In fact, it could be said that Dassault Aviation has been playing it safe, with India flying on its machines since the Ouragan. But this would be to underestimate the aggressiveness of Lockheed-Martin's negotiators. After all, we're talking about a contract for 114 combat aircraft. This is no mean feat, far from it. No holds barred.
So will we see the outcome of this MRFA program before the festive season? And could this mean that, in addition to the Rafale M, the F4 standard will also take the Rafale B/C away from the Indian Air Force in the 4th quarter? Nothing is impossible. All the more so as Franco-Indian relations are really on a roll. As the old saying goes: “Hope springs eternal”.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
The visit to Paris on Monday, September 30, 2024 by India's No. 1 national security official is seen as a major step forward in the Indian Air Force's Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft program. Often referred to as MMRCA 2, this program will see the acquisition of 114 new-generation combat aircraft, some of which will be assembled locally. All the signs are now green for the Dassault Aviation Rafale F4, except that the Indians may also be interested in another fighter: the Lockheed-Martin F-21A Viper. The Viper is the latest evolution of the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon, which first flew 50 years ago.
Dassault Aviation Rafale B in Indian Air Force livery.
At the beginning of the week, the French Republic pulled out all the stops to welcome Mr. Ajit Doval, India's current National Security Advisor. His first stop was the Quai d'Orsay, where he was welcomed by its new tenant, Jean-Noël Barrot. After a series of meetings on defense and security cooperation, the group headed for... the other side of the Seine. At the Élysée Palace, the President of the Republic, Mr. Emmanuel Macron, received them. His Minister of the Armed Forces, Mr. Sébastien Lecornu, was also in attendance. In India, Mr. Doval is one of the men directly negotiating the MRFA combat aircraft program. So it's no coincidence that, in addition to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, he also met with Messrs Lecornu and Macron, who are in charge of Rafale F4 exports. This is something that the Indian press has been highlighting for the past two days. Strangely enough, the French media have been a little (a lot) radio-silent.
Yet the MRFA could well be the jackpot for the Clodiac aircraft manufacturer and its masterpiece. One hundred and fourteen aircraft have been ordered, a figure that makes the head spin. Especially when you consider that the Rafale F4 has already wiped out most of its competitors. Mikoyan MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, Saab JAS 39E/F Gripen, and Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E were all quickly discarded, while the Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon fought hard for its share of the market, to the point where the Indians might have thought it was of interest. But no. And what about the F-15EX Eagle II proposed by Boeing to replace the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, now out of production? The “I'm offering it to you because the other one is outdated” argument is rather limited commercially speaking. Especially when the customer is the Indian Air Force. So, faced with the Rafale F4, all that's left is the F-21A Viper, a version adapted to Indian needs from the now famous F-16V Viper. Although Washington DC is pushing hard for this aircraft, it is far from being favored by the military over its French competitor. And with good reason!
Indian Air Force pilots know the Dassault Aviation Rafale well: they fly it. And for them, this fighter jet has become a game changer, particularly in the face of Chinese adversaries. In fact, it could be said that Dassault Aviation has been playing it safe, with India flying on its machines since the Ouragan. But this would be to underestimate the aggressiveness of Lockheed-Martin's negotiators. After all, we're talking about a contract for 114 combat aircraft. This is no mean feat, far from it. No holds barred.
So will we see the outcome of this MRFA program before the festive season? And could this mean that, in addition to the Rafale M, the F4 standard will also take the Rafale B/C away from the Indian Air Force in the 4th quarter? Nothing is impossible. All the more so as Franco-Indian relations are really on a roll. As the old saying goes: “Hope springs eternal”.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
As per this video , the incoming CAS ACM AP Singh didn't bring up the issue of the MRFA tender in his address to the press yesterday.
In response to questions on the MRFA the ACM categorically stated that a mere 2-3 squadrons is not going to suffice but on the same hand admitted there's no agreement ( with GoI ) on how to go about the procurement of these FAs.
The video concludes by noting that the IAF seems to be in wait & watch mode . If there are any slip ups in the deliveries or realisation of the current projects they'd bring the MRFA tender in the foreground.
What this means is as of the present the MRFA tender is on the back burner & is seen as some sort of back up plan in case current projects fail or are interminably delayed.
This clearly highlights what I've been claiming since the past 2 years or 2022 to be precise , that there's no agreement between the GoI & the IAF on the MRFA procurement.
That the last chance the IAF had was during the tenure of the previous CDS the late Gen Bipin Rawat where he put forth in public the disagreement between the IAF & the MoD on the mode of procurement of those Rafales wherein the MoD proposed staggered induction like the MKI whereas the IAF wanted it in one go .
Since then the IAF has been given the cold shoulder & till date we haven't had a breakthrough or consensus on this matter. And we're going to war with the Chinese later this decade "fighting with whatever we have" once again as in 1999 in the immortal words of the then IA chief Gen VP Malik.
The ACM has parroted old news in a diplomatic fashion, not anything new that we already didn't know. MRFA has been on the backburner since 2019. New MRFA proposal has been pending since 2 years, ie, 2022. But 2022 went to all the secret stuff.
And, as I had also stated before, 2-3 squadrons won't do much because of our geography. For pan-India operations (North, SW, NE India), we need 6 squadrons. Only that allows the IAF to create the sort of redundancies necessary to operate a jet all over the country "efficiently," key word.
Now, the key force multiplier deals are all almost over. We had issues with AWACS, tankers and SIGINT/ELINT aircraft, and all three are coming through secondhand A321s. MKI MLU, LCA Mk2 and AMCA have moved forward. A space plan consisting of 50 satellites also seems to have been finalized. So now, only 97 Mk1A orders are pending, that's about it, and it was expected to be signed this year, could happen this year. CCS finalization was expected in December.
GoI deliberately pushed MRFA to the background because they didn't want IAF distracted by it. They seem to have pushed the IAF to finalize domestic programs first. And the IAF seem to have secured some sort of guarantee on MRFA in a mutual backscratching exercise before doing so. And now, MRFA is emerging out of its shell 'cause GoI is talking about it to foreign leaders and we are seeing foreign media buzzing about.
I don't know why but people keep forgetting that the IAF officially released an RFI for MRFA back in 2019. That's how we got to know the new name is called "MRFA." So they are very serious about it.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for MRFA in 2025.
And, as I had also stated before, 2-3 squadrons won't do much because of our geography. For pan-India operations (North, SW, NE India), we need 6 squadrons. Only that allows the IAF to create the sort of redundancies necessary to operate a jet all over the country "efficiently," key word.
Now, the key force multiplier deals are all almost over. We had issues with AWACS, tankers and SIGINT/ELINT aircraft, and all three are coming through secondhand A321s. MKI MLU, LCA Mk2 and AMCA have moved forward. A space plan consisting of 50 satellites also seems to have been finalized. So now, only 97 Mk1A orders are pending, that's about it, and it was expected to be signed this year, could happen this year. CCS finalization was expected in December.
GoI deliberately pushed MRFA to the background because they didn't want IAF distracted by it. They seem to have pushed the IAF to finalize domestic programs first. And the IAF seem to have secured some sort of guarantee on MRFA in a mutual backscratching exercise before doing so. And now, MRFA is emerging out of its shell 'cause GoI is talking about it to foreign leaders and we are seeing foreign media buzzing about.
I don't know why but people keep forgetting that the IAF officially released an RFI for MRFA back in 2019. That's how we got to know the new name is called "MRFA." So they are very serious about it.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for MRFA in 2025.
Strange ! I didn't even mention RST & he's back attaching himself to my post like lice to hair.
Nobody denies the requirement for the Rafales specifically & the fact that they're grossly inadequate in present numbers to make a difference.
What matters from the GoI's perspective is finances or rather the lack of it given we're good at bringing the axe down on our own feet like for instance the recent provision of MII for the MRFA which'd easily push the costs to < 30 billion USD .
If the argument is this was always part of the deal even earlier during the MMRCA tender let me point out to the fact that escalation in costs which was high even then is intolerable now. Following this path would either mean annual defense budgets would have to be hiked 20% per annum successively if we sign the deal or we kiss the other programs of the IAF goodbye.
In the event , Gen Rawat's prescription of importing the Rafales in tranches & focussing on off sets was the best way to go ahead.
The next argument's about the sheer timing . Whatever may have been the impetus behind going in for the MMRCA what with the IAF's fascination for Mirages which was stymied initially by procurement of the MiG 29s & later due to future obsolescence , the fact remains that this has been a long delayed program & events have caught up with it.
The prime reason it should be inducted today unlike the past is our impending war with China which wasn't a consideration before 2020. If we're working under the assumption it can break out any time in & around 2030 we're already late .
At this stage even direct imports won't help as Dassault's order book is full & signing an agreement in 2028 -29 only gets us the first Rafales by 2032 vide imports & MII from 2035 or thereabouts by which time we'd be getting the Mk-2 & the AMCA Mk-1 assuming all deliveries of the Mk-1a's been expedited.
I don't see any practical use for the Rafales in those timelines & what's more it could eat into the quantities of the Mk-2 & further orders of the AMCA Mk-1 in addition to the proposed 2 squadrons which should be given first priority apart from the obvious fact that our war with China would have already occured.
Instead of taking all these facts into consideration what we're getting is post facto rationalization , considering the RFI's were issued in 2018 & the IAF's been scratching its balls since but we're being told there was some grand plan or trade off during that time period.
Nobody denies the requirement for the Rafales specifically & the fact that they're grossly inadequate in present numbers to make a difference.
What matters from the GoI's perspective is finances or rather the lack of it given we're good at bringing the axe down on our own feet like for instance the recent provision of MII for the MRFA which'd easily push the costs to < 30 billion USD .
If the argument is this was always part of the deal even earlier during the MMRCA tender let me point out to the fact that escalation in costs which was high even then is intolerable now. Following this path would either mean annual defense budgets would have to be hiked 20% per annum successively if we sign the deal or we kiss the other programs of the IAF goodbye.
In the event , Gen Rawat's prescription of importing the Rafales in tranches & focussing on off sets was the best way to go ahead.
The next argument's about the sheer timing . Whatever may have been the impetus behind going in for the MMRCA what with the IAF's fascination for Mirages which was stymied initially by procurement of the MiG 29s & later due to future obsolescence , the fact remains that this has been a long delayed program & events have caught up with it.
The prime reason it should be inducted today unlike the past is our impending war with China which wasn't a consideration before 2020. If we're working under the assumption it can break out any time in & around 2030 we're already late .
At this stage even direct imports won't help as Dassault's order book is full & signing an agreement in 2028 -29 only gets us the first Rafales by 2032 vide imports & MII from 2035 or thereabouts by which time we'd be getting the Mk-2 & the AMCA Mk-1 assuming all deliveries of the Mk-1a's been expedited.
I don't see any practical use for the Rafales in those timelines & what's more it could eat into the quantities of the Mk-2 & further orders of the AMCA Mk-1 in addition to the proposed 2 squadrons which should be given first priority apart from the obvious fact that our war with China would have already occured.
Instead of taking all these facts into consideration what we're getting is post facto rationalization , considering the RFI's were issued in 2018 & the IAF's been scratching its balls since but we're being told there was some grand plan or trade off during that time period.
There's one thing I haven't said here because I know it won't please you, but in the end it doesn't matter. The hard thing to do is not to reproduce a high-tech device, but to reproduce the factory that made it possible to build this device efficiently, i.e. at a competitive cost. This is the difference between craftsmanship and industry. Prototypes are craft, and production aircraft are industry. And you've done industry with the Jaguar and the SU-30 MKI for example, but the factory was supplied to you by foreigners. And for the LCA programme, it's up to you to design the factory, and to say the least, it's been laborious.
So you can't easily produce the planned quantities of ACLs. We're patient, we know that one day you'll ask us for more Rafales.
Hello Sir
Will Rafale F4 or F 5 have GAN AESA ,ie Gallium Nitride instead of Gallium Arsenide, right now
While the ACMs statements were aimed at the powers that be, his comment about a 'defensive' posture vs the PLA sends all the wrong signals imo at a time when we're locked in a face-off with them.
This could impact ongoing negotiations over patrolling rights along the border. Now India is no Philippines but such comments should never have been made in public, imo.
Whatever happened to adopting Chanakya niti in response to China's Sun Tzu?
This could impact ongoing negotiations over patrolling rights along the border. Now India is no Philippines but such comments should never have been made in public, imo.
Whatever happened to adopting Chanakya niti in response to China's Sun Tzu?
We abandoned GaN for the F4 in favour of a multi-channel digital receiver, which is necessary for the RBE2 XG anyway and which gives a better range (even better than GaN) in heavily jammed environments. Basically, you're choosing between better range when it's easy and better range when it's hard, and we've opted for the latter, knowing that later we'll have both.
Many Thanks for your reply
There is a Person with his Youtube channel and Twitter account
and who has many followers who has been saying that Rafale without GAN is of No use
So if Rafale F 4 meets our requirements, Now all that Remains is the 110 KN Engine deal
I believe this engine deal is the Key to unlocking 114 MRFA Deal
I didn't get what exactly are you trying to convey & the context of your post. Perhaps if you were less cryptic or subtle & more to the point , I could answer.
It brings out into the open ONCE AGAIN the growing distrust between the MoD & the IAF. IAF has been having multiple issues with GoI off late from being half hearted participants in the Agniveer scheme to being extremely reluctant about the theatreization of our armed forces C&C structure to the need for MRFA & the mode of procurement etc.
French defence major Safran set to launch its first electronics unit in India
The Safran Group has expressed its intent to set up its first Defence Electronics unit outside France in India. This announcement comes during a strategic dialogue between India's National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and French officials, emphasizing the strengthening of defense collaboration...
Do you remember our dicussion(me, yours & your buddy's
) on your PLAAF thread? Didn't I say exactly what the new ACM is saying
We would be able to counter the PLAAF using our superior training and tactics, but in-terms of tech, we're completely outgunned against them. They have over 500 4.5 gen fighters with AESA radars and over 150 5th gen fighter with arguably operational "GaN" radar. They also have operation dual-pulse missile in PL-15 while ours is still some time away.
We lost the tech lead(which MKI provided us) back in 2017 when J-20 became operational.
To begin with he isn't my buddy but my bunny. Huge difference between the two. Secondly off late he's been displaying the kind of symptoms I warned about 2 years ago in 2022 which is excessive hubris coupled with conflating his fantasies with real life & passing it off as reality.Do you remember our dicussion(me, yours & your buddy's
He's now quoting people like Andrew Tate & extreme Far Right loony fringe groups to build up his arguments. He's completely flipped & I say this in all seriousness .
If the gap between what we're fielding & what we're facing is too high which is what it is then no amount of training & tactics matters unless the objective is to scatter lie low & play sniper. The RoI for this manoeuvre is pretty low given China's literally hundreds of FA it can throw our way without getting into further granular details.
I'll tell you what's more heartbreaking - the fact that the upgradation / modernisation of those MKIs will last 7 years .
I'm not sure in what shape or quantities we'd be receiving them in 2030 & no clue about the status of the rest of ~ 200 odd FAs whereas I was under the impression they'd burn the midnight oil & upgrade / modernise the entire fleet in 7-8 years.
The Jaguars & the LCAs are pretty useless across the LAC given they're short legged. Which leaves the MiG-29s & the Mirage 2000 apart from the un upgraded MKIs & a handful of Rafales. Tell me - what exactly are you going to fight the PLAAF with ?
The entire scenario is hilarious if it weren't so tragic.
Actually the ACM is in-agreement with your viewpoint. We don't have enough offensive firepower against PLAAF, so our strategy is defensive in nature. Just hold PLAAF from doing too much damage having a nice synergy between our Advance IADS and fighter jets and let IA do its job.
As strange it may sound, but IA has lot more offensive firepower against PLA than IAF has against PLAAF. All our plight is because we didn't procure 120 Rafales back in 2012 and dropped out of FGFA. Two of the biggest blunders in our mil-aviation history, IMO.
Regarding MKI upgrade, well the plan is to upgrade the fleet in tranches, with each subsequent upgrade being much potent than the previous one. MKI UPG. is going to be a drastically different aircraft than the current one and all the new stuff need to be validated/flight tested before hitting full rate upgrade cycle. Hence the 7 year timeline.