EX has a huge advanced AESA and will see Rafale at a great distance while at the same time has the most advanced EW in a fighter.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
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Same way as another person who said big order will be done real in 2022.
I think Modi govt will wait for J20 to be based on Indian border, and will then buy F-35.
They will buy another 36 rafales for Air Force.
So RFP before elections? I hope. Why waste time?
120+ would mean 20-jet squadrons at the minimum. Hopefully they get all 126.
I fear goi may end up like what is Armenia today. Sleep for long time and going for shoping mania after losing significant amount of their territory to enemies.
We need mmrca to check Chinese, this mk1,mk2a, mk2 will at the most capable to hold PAF's inventories (excluding f16)
Trust me bro info i guess.
it's exactly what will happen. We have literally watched over the past 2 decades as the Indian Army and, especially, Airforce have sat back and allowed capabilities to wither while the Chinese have increased their presence on the border.
People used to meme that India would need to lose a major war in order to get its act together but they might not have been wrong. Even today there still doesn't seem to be any urgency within the mod.
Let's hope Arunachal/Ladakh don't become India's version of Alsace-Lorraine
With the exception of the delay in MRFA and P-75I, we are not in such a bad state. Emergency purchases have plugged almost all the holes we have on the ground too. Our border infrastructure has also crossed the minimum threshold necessary to mount a defense.
I'm kinda a rare poster here (student life ain't easy), not looking for a fight with anyone. Just a few things I had to ask.
But aren't FRCV, FICV, Tejas Mk2 & AMCA (at least compared to what ADE officials were saying in interviews), induction of UAVs, aerial tankers, etc. all delayed?
As far as the navy is concerned, the Koreans are on track to outbuild the Indian Navy in the next 10-12 years, at least in the number of frigates and destroyers they'll build and commission by 2035. And the Chinese and the Americans are well ahead of the Koreans.
Chinese had an opportunity to surprise us during 2020. Now that window is over. We're not only prepared to hold the Chinese but defeat both Pak and China together.
We're indeed lacking in all the area you mentioned, but post Galwan Modi Ji has done enough to ensure that Chinese don't have their way. A lot of core areas have been strengthened. Our MIC is also much stronger now.
Has there been any success in streamlining the lengthy, bureaucratic, at some points even unnecessary, procurement system? Until that gets done, no individual personality will negate China's industrial, material, and financial advantage over India.
That said, for the informed users here, what exactly is the purpose of the CCS approval before funds are released for a particular project? Aren't all the relevant parts of the government (PMO, Ministries of Finance, Home, External Affairs, Defense) already consulted while deciding on the defense budget itself? If the MoD wants to spend $5 billion on an aircraft carrier, why should it have to run to the CCS to sanction the money it has already been allotted in its capital budget?
We are delayed in some areas, but it's not critical enough.
And even though we haven't launched official programs, a lot of development is already happening. For example, DRDO's new light tank uses NGMBT's hull. And the NGMBT will be DRDO's offer for FRCV. Similarly, other private sector companies are working on their own designs and technologies. FICV too has some prototypes ready. Similarly, ATAGS, MaRG, Bharat-52 etc are all unofficial programs, only Dhanush is official, along with M777 and K9. The idea is companies will develop products for the forces and once they meet a minimum threshold the forces will launch an official program. So no one's starting from zero while waiting for start of an official program.
Some areas, we are slow, but have seen progress, like both AWACS and refuelers. We can even commission refuelers from other air forces during war, so that's not a problem.
There was a very big hole in communications, but that's been plugged. Only the army is awaiting a field system for last mile connectivity. A TCS is almost complete, only field units require new handsets, and a BMS is WIP. It should have progressed quite a lot though.
Indian Army conducts 5-day exercise to test satellites
The types of satellite communication terminals tested during the exercise included static terminals, transportable vehicle-mounted terminals, man-portable and small form factor man-pack terminals, the sources informed.
Basically, the IAF and IA are working in two phases to deal with a two-front war. The first phase is about holding on both fronts and dealing with one front at a time, starting with Pakistan. The second phase will see us simultaneously fighting on both fronts. The IAF is capable of phase 1, they demonstrated that with Gagan Shakti, while the IA is already deep into phase 2, signaled by the raising of 2 MSCs. But when it comes to fighting one front at a time, we have more than enough.
So, if we are fighting China alone, all we are missing today is MRFA. In fact, it's just 2 additional squadrons of Rafales. Furthermore, with the exception of Rafales (nothing more than an extra squadron, if we are lucky), the West can provide us with pretty much anything we want, particularly ammunition, infantry gear, mountain gear, endless amounts of drones, even helicopters. Even experimental weapons and technologies.
While their navies are bigger, our navy is adequate. We will have 150+ ships over the coming decade. They cannot bring more than 20-25 ships into the IOR, so we are more numerous already. It's worse for the Chinese 'cause they don't have treaty allies in the IOR that can support their ships. All we are missing is some advanced submarines. At least we are getting an SSN by 2027, and hopefully the Scorpene AIP upgrade works out.
Yes, quite a bit. Like, a lot.
Exhaustive list:
Defence Reforms in India - 20 Reforms of 2020 | UPSC Notes
The article discusses the defence reforms in India, focusing on the 20 reforms of 2020 released by the Ministry of Defence. These reforms aim to modernise and strengthen the Indian Armed Forces, and they cover areas such as defence production, digital transformation, and women's participation in...
It's still going on.
Anyway, India is moving away from imports, so a lot of red tape is slowly being nullified due to the non-involvement of foreign companies in many areas. This is making procurement faster. Let's not forget how quickly emergency import contracts were signed as well.
These reforms are what led to the massive transformation of the IA in the last 3 years.
To avoid a repeat of Saint Anthony. The CCS dilutes the ability of just one person holding national security hostage just 'cause he does not want to get his feet wet. So, now, a 5-member committee can overrule one person. It also prevents the RM from playing favorites.
Yeah, @randomradio, thanks for the reply. What you're saying is completely valid. Not a single disagreement there, R&D is happening behind the scenes while the programs wait for funds and approval.
(Just an overburdened student here, if I've got stuff wrong, cut me some slack, and feel free to correct me)
But the point is, the FICV plan was drawn up in 2009. They wanted the vehicles to replace BMP-2s by the early 2020s. We're in 2023, and there's no word on the final timeline.
The MRFA dates back to 2007. Again, we're in 2023. Even if the contracts were to be signed tonight, the planes won't get built until 2028 at the earliest. Oh, and the more orders Dassault gets, the less likely they'll be to negotiate.
See, you talk of Scorpenes with AIP plugs. The Koreans (a significantly larger, heavier submarine, going by the recent underdevelopment-VLS specs) and the Japanese (a new VLS-equipped submarine) are designing whole new classes of submarines while building what are brand-new classes of submarines (KSS-3 Batch 2-, and Taigei-class, respectively). Where does that leave India?
Of course, the entire PLAN isn't gonna show up in the IOR, but is our projected growth enough? Especially if you take into account our rather nascent naval shipbuilding abilities. I mean, is our construction cadence permissible for further development of the naval MIC? Take destroyers, the Koreans build theirs in 3 years, and the Japanese and the Americans build theirs in 3-5 years (for the US, varies between HII and BIW), the Chinese take 3-6 years at most. India takes 6-8 years at least.
Edit: If the Navy's comments about taking 5 years to decide the timeline (i guess they mean plan?) for the NGD is true, we'll see the NGD by 2036 at the earliest, 2040 if we're being realistic. How many destroyers are the Koreans building? 9+ (3 Jeongjos, 6 KDDXs, 1-2 KDDX-Ss), the Americans will be at double digits for their DDG-51 Flight 3s, and the Chinese have already got more Type-055s than Kolkatas and Vishakhapatnams combined). Even if you were to see the repeat order for the P17As materialize next year (iirc MDL executives expect a 2025-27 timeline), you're not gonna receive the ships by the 2030s.
Its not like I'm tryna troll or anything, just the sheer delays, and the general lack of coherent schedules you see in India's military development is a bit ... concerning.
(Just an overburdened student here, if I've got stuff wrong, cut me some slack, and feel free to correct me)
But the point is, the FICV plan was drawn up in 2009. They wanted the vehicles to replace BMP-2s by the early 2020s. We're in 2023, and there's no word on the final timeline.
The MRFA dates back to 2007. Again, we're in 2023. Even if the contracts were to be signed tonight, the planes won't get built until 2028 at the earliest. Oh, and the more orders Dassault gets, the less likely they'll be to negotiate.
Are you sure we're missing some submarines? If you take the big naval powers in Asia (China, Japan, South Korea, India, USA), we've got the smallest submarine fleet. And we've got the slowest projected growth in our submarine fleet among these powers as well. And for the next 10 years, the gap is only set to grow.
See, you talk of Scorpenes with AIP plugs. The Koreans (a significantly larger, heavier submarine, going by the recent underdevelopment-VLS specs) and the Japanese (a new VLS-equipped submarine) are designing whole new classes of submarines while building what are brand-new classes of submarines (KSS-3 Batch 2-, and Taigei-class, respectively). Where does that leave India?
Of course, the entire PLAN isn't gonna show up in the IOR, but is our projected growth enough? Especially if you take into account our rather nascent naval shipbuilding abilities. I mean, is our construction cadence permissible for further development of the naval MIC? Take destroyers, the Koreans build theirs in 3 years, and the Japanese and the Americans build theirs in 3-5 years (for the US, varies between HII and BIW), the Chinese take 3-6 years at most. India takes 6-8 years at least.
Edit: If the Navy's comments about taking 5 years to decide the timeline (i guess they mean plan?) for the NGD is true, we'll see the NGD by 2036 at the earliest, 2040 if we're being realistic. How many destroyers are the Koreans building? 9+ (3 Jeongjos, 6 KDDXs, 1-2 KDDX-Ss), the Americans will be at double digits for their DDG-51 Flight 3s, and the Chinese have already got more Type-055s than Kolkatas and Vishakhapatnams combined). Even if you were to see the repeat order for the P17As materialize next year (iirc MDL executives expect a 2025-27 timeline), you're not gonna receive the ships by the 2030s.
Its not like I'm tryna troll or anything, just the sheer delays, and the general lack of coherent schedules you see in India's military development is a bit ... concerning.
Genuine question, doesn't that just cause a role reversal in who holds stuff up? Why not go for a unified agency, something like the French DGA or the Korean DAPA? At least to me, it would seem that'll be better than having a DAC that's gotta report to CCS for its budget, and once it receives the budget, to report to the CCS to spend the budget.
Again, not trying to nitpick here, it's a genuine question, but does it not let the PM play favorites?
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FICV's earlier plan was shelved. BMP-2s still have 10-15 years of life left. And 811 more will get new upgrades, so they require replacement only from the 2030s.
Night capabilities, see-through armour — how Army is upgrading its Russian combat vehicles
BMP 2 forms the backbone of India’s Mechanised Infantry & plays a crucial role in combat including in Eastern Ladakh where it's deployed in large numbers. User trials for upgrade on.
theprint.in
Now a new program will begin for 480, and contracts will go out in batches, with each batch being more advanced than the last.
Yep. We are very late here. I'm a fan of buying 36 more. But it's not gonna happen.
I guess the govt is not expecting to fight a war this decade. Any potential war this decade is the one expected between the US and China.
As for Dassault, I'm not worried. The market is saturating. Within the next year or two, all the main players would have bought all the Rafales they need. The only large players left will be Saudi's follow-on orders and India's very large order.
Our geography doesn't require us to have a lot of submarines. We have 3 chokepoints, 3 bases and 3 ports to protect. For that, we need 24 subs. 9 to protect, 8-10 for relief, offensive and defensive missions, the rest in maintenance. And they can all last at sea throughout the duration of the war we expect to fight. With AIP, the requirement will fall even further. The SSN will further reduce the need for many subs. In fact, with 6-9 AIP and Li-ion equipped Scorpenes and 1 SSN and 2 or 3 Kilos, we can do the work of all 24 subs.
We don't need to match them ship-for-ship. Only a very small part of PLAN can come into the IOR, and even that's quite a long time away. They need a lot of SSNs and supercarriers, enough to match the USN in the Pacific first before they can bring a sizable force to fight India. They will very likely need nuclear-powered destroyers to operate in the IOR, they can't sustain fossil fuel ships that far away during war.
If something is held up, then the entire govt will be at fault, so it's a robust system.
We don't have the kind of manpower or will necessary for a DGA like system. We need both honest and capable professionals for such a system, and we lack both. Our bureaucrats become bureaucrats because they pass an exam. What we need is a cadre of academics who can work at the highest level from within universities and we need our acquisitions handled by people with years of managerial experience within industries. We also need a mature society that won't jump up and down at the first whiff of a corruption allegation just 'cause they don't like the ruling dispensation.
An Indian DGA needs to combine R&D (DRDO and universities), services headquarters, defense production, acquisitions and quality assurance into a single entity. Good luck. Anyway, all of this is under MoD already. The problem is except the R&D component, everything else is run by bureaucrats and military personnel, and they lack the experience necessary.
We finally have a CDS, so that's a start. Let's see what can be done from here on.
Anyway, even if there's an Indian DGA, it will still require CCS approval.
Nope, i was a student during Kargil war. Still remembering the news came in local newpaper (malayalamanorama), that IAF had proposed to government for new jetfighter after finding the short comings of our inventory. That turned in to MRCA later.
All of your replies are valid but this is ultimately the crux of the issue. If for whatever reason a 2 front war comes to India before 2035/40, the costs will be tremendous.
All the stopgap measures are there to ensure India can hold out at the cost of lives and minimal loss to territory. We can hope that China is more focused on Taiwan and that if the worst happens the West will bless India with some small fraction of the support Ukraine/Israel are getting.
I'm still not entirely satisfied with how aircraft acquisition is going. Fighters don't grow on trees. It will take Dassault a while to produce more jets. We actually have to give an order and go through all the hoops of approvals first.
More trainers for pilots would also be amazing to have.
Su-30 upgrades are still needed as well as procurement of munitions for all these jets.
The Himalayan front isn't the only area we need more air support as well. Would love to see some upgraded Sukhois/Rafales at A&N. Need more AWACs and ground based radars everywhere.
There is a lot to do and nothing but an opaque window and a shaky record of bureaucratic mismanagement for us enthusiasts to gain insight.